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The Bringer of Light.

I touched on this in an earlier thread and thought it was worthy of its own.

The Latin translation of Lucifer is "Bringer of Light" or "Light-bringer", derived from lux (light) and ferre (to bring). It was Lucifer who coaxed Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, against God's command. Irrelevantly, if Eve had no knowledge on the difference between right and wrong how was she supposed to know that it was wrong to disobey God? Nevermind that if it doesn't make sense. You can say that the story of Eden was just symbology, that God actually created the world over eons and eons which were called "days" (On day one, he created..) Whether if the story of Eden is symbolic or factual (opinions vary), God clearly did not want his pets to know. There is not a word in the Bible in favor of intelligence (paraphrased quote, author forgotten), for Christianity insists that its followers shut their eyes and submit. Jesus taught specifically to serve your masters well as though you were serving God, ie. submissive slavery. Suffer now, he said, and later God will reward you. If you ask me, this sounds like the people in power at the time made that up so that they could get maximum efficiency from their slaves. Just a thought. The meek shall inherit the earth, he taught, a pretty bold promise to the people who let others boss them around.

Moving along. Lucifer gave us knowledge, and we hate him for it. Analogy using the Matrix. We're living our perfect little lives in Eden (the Matrix) when Lucifer comes along and opens our eyes (Neo). We wake up and see just how bad the real world is, and we hate Lucifer! I don't believe in the existence of Lucifer, God, Jesus, or Luke Skywalker, so this is all in the interest of hearing what Christians have to say on the matter.

Jesus wants us to be submissive slaves?
Lucifer saved us from God?
Are we just a social experiment with Dr. God pulling the strings? Rats running around in a maze with God watching and taking notes? When he finds out what he needs to know, will he wipe us out and move on to his next experiment?

First glance, that's a crazy claim, but is it anymore crazy than what we are taught in our daily lives?

Also, in the movie Constantine, an interesting point is made (which is purely for entertainment and has no philosophical value). If God requires humans to have faith for salvation, what if someone knows? John Constantine was given a gift to see angels and demons, he's been to hell and back. So, instead of believing, he KNOWS. Knowledge destroys faith, so does John get to go to heaven despite his lack of faith?

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When thousands of people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion. - Paraphrased quote, author forgotten.
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Lucifer isn't a Christian Concept. Not really. Lucifer (morning star) was a roman invention. Lucifer was the Husband of Diana (who she eventually chased down and ate - that's my kind of Goddess). The Bible is ridiculously vague with regard to the devil. Even after years of studying the etymology of certain words, the meaning is still unclear.
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
"
God gave them knowledge and intelligence in every branch of literature and wisdom" (v. 17).
By manipulating the DNA of the innocent humanoid animal, Lucifer gave us the ability to “see” and thus become like gods?

The fact that tyou are associating God and the garden of Eden with a movie (crap one at that) to
justify similarities is absurd.

Also, in the movie Constantine, an interesting point is made (which is purely for entertainment and has no philosophical value).

Then why is it involved in your queries?

“For God doeth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as God..” (Gen 3:5)

Oh, great wisdom there, lol.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
apostle_ndr said:
Whether if the story of Eden is symbolic or factual (opinions vary), God clearly did not want his pets to know. There is not a word in the Bible in favor of intelligence (paraphrased quote, author forgotten), for Christianity insists that its followers shut their eyes and submit.
Of course God wanted Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil! Had He not wanted this, He would not have allowed them to be tempted at all. He certainly could have prevented this from happening. Furthermore, having allowed them to make a choice which led to the consequences He had warned them of, He could have prohibited them from ever returning to His presence. Instead, He provided a Savior for them -- a means by which they might be reconciled to Him.

Moving along. Lucifer gave us knowledge, and we hate him for it.
No, he gave us nothing. By eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve gained the capability to know the difference between good and evil. As soon as they received that knowledge, they were in a position of being subject to Satan/Lucifer forever.

Jesus wants us to be submissive slaves?
Lucifer saved us from God?
Are we just a social experiment with Dr. God pulling the strings? Rats running around in a maze with God watching and taking notes? When he finds out what he needs to know, will he wipe us out and move on to his next experiment?

First glance, that's a crazy claim, but is it anymore crazy than what we are taught in our daily lives?
And upon further examination, it's even crazier.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When thousands of people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion. - Paraphrased quote, author forgotten.
So we're all religious and you're just insane? :D How condescending can one person possibly be?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Darkdale said:
Lucifer isn't a Christian Concept. Not really. Lucifer (morning star) was a roman invention. Lucifer was the Husband of Diana (who she eventually chased down and ate - that's my kind of Goddess). The Bible is ridiculously vague with regard to the devil. Even after years of studying the etymology of certain words, the meaning is still unclear.
He is mentioned by name in Isaiah and is described as "son of the morning" in the same verse.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Malus01 said:
So, katzperson, are you saying that the fruit was bait, basically?
I guess you could look at it that way. I see it more as a means to an end. God knew full well that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit. It was all a part of His Plan. By gaining a knowledge of good and evil, they would be in a position to be able to choose between these two opposites in the future and progress in a way they would not have been able to otherwise.
 
The fact that tyou are associating God and the garden of Eden with a movie (crap one at that) to justify similarities is absurd.


Applying a difficult concept to a commonly accepted and recognized concept (like a popular movie) is not absurd. It puts things in a perspective that everyone can relate to.. and I happen to use movies a lot, not because they define my beliefs but because my beliefs define them and there is no better medium to communicate with people than the media/cinema. Can I use Fight Club instead, unless you think that's crap one as well.

The Bible, to me, is a fictional story laced with historical events, just like the novel Underworld or the movie Seabisquit. Thus, any movie with a message about God (a nonexistent thing to me) is as philosophically significant as a movie with a message about Santa Claus. The idea behind the movie, like the one behind The Matrix and Fight Club, however, allows space for an interesting debate.. for those it may concern (Christians).

Of course God wanted Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil! Had He not wanted this, He would not have allowed them to be tempted at all. He certainly could have prevented this from happening. Furthermore, having allowed them to make a choice which led to the consequences He had warned them of, He could have prohibited them from ever returning to His presence. Instead, He provided a Savior for them -- a means by which they might be reconciled to Him.
Therefore, God wanted us to suffer mortality and the frailty of human flesh. Then, is it really so hard to believe that this is a social experiment with God pulling the strings?

And upon further examination, it's even crazier.
One schizophrenic believes that killer bunnies are out to get him. Another schizophrenic believes that BIG killer bunnies are out to get him! Can we really say which one is crazier?
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Aqualung said:
Darkdale:Isaiah 14:12

"How you have fallen from heave,
O Morning Star, son of dawn!
You have been cast down to earth,
you who once laid low the nations."

Where is the mention of Lucifer?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Darkdale said:
"How you have fallen from heave,
O Morning Star, son of dawn!
You have been cast down to earth,
you who once laid low the nations."

Where is the mention of Lucifer?
Mine says "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Aqualung said:
Mine says "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

I have NIV, what do you have?
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Aqualung said:
I use the KJV.

:) ok. look, there is no evidence that "The Morning Star" and the Roman Lucifer are the same thing - at least, not that I know of.

Lucifer, even in the Roman sense, wasn't in the original mythology. It was added later by poets. I'll find some info for you and post it.
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Lucifer Wikipedia

Lucifer is a Latin word made up of two words, lux (light; genitive lucis) and ferre (to bear, to bring), meaning light-bearer. Lucifer does not appear in Greek or Roman mythology; it is used by poets to represent the Morning Star at moments when "Venus" would intrude distracting imagery of the goddess. "Lucifer" is Jerome's direct translation in his Vulgate (4th century) of the Septuagint's Greek translation, as heosphoros, "morning star" or "Day Star," literally "bringer of the Dawn", of a phrase in from Isaiah 14:12 that originally intended no reference to Satan (see below). From the viewpoint of the Christian mythology that developed after Jerome, Lucifer came to be seen as having been second in command to God himself; he was the highest archangel in heaven, but he was motivated by pride and greed to rebel against God and was cast out of heaven by Archangel Michael. Lucifer was also followed by some angels. Then he became the Devil, and his followers were known as demons.

Modern astrologers identify the planet Venus as having been known by the name Lucifer in Roman astrology before being given its current name. See poetical instances below.

Please take the time to read the whole article.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Darkdale said:
:) ok. look, there is no evidence that "The Morning Star" and the Roman Lucifer are the same thing - at least, not that I know of.

Lucifer, even in the Roman sense, wasn't in the original mythology. It was added later by poets. I'll find some info for you and post it.
I'm not debating. I was just telling you where it was. I don't particularly want to debate this topic.
 
I have the NIV, a rather expensive one my father bought me in an attempt to help me see the light (his light). On my bookshelf at home is about five copies of the KJV. I believe I also have an NASB. Online, I use the SAB (Skeptic's Annotated Bible) to pinpoint the verses I need, which I believe uses the KJV.

Point being, with all the different translations of a divine document available, how are we to know which one is the most accurate? Each new translation deviates away from the original Hebrew manuscripts, right? The editors take confusing terms and change them, or they make subtle changes to make it seem like the Bible actually does agree with science. An interesting free .pdf if you want to look for it talks of these changes in translation. It's written by a devout Catholic who believes that all translations after the KJV create confusion by the hand of Satan! I think it's called, The Antichrist or Second Coming of the Antichrist or something. It's real interesting as it talks about how far Christianity has changed from its former self, how each denomination is a deviation from the original (like how Catholics worship Mary as if she were a goddess).

If we can say that the only true message of God can be found in the original Hebrew manuscripts, we'd still have to trust the translations of the translators, which could be faulty. We could lock a group of international linguists in a room until they came up with the definitive Hebrew-English translation of the Bible, and we'd still be off course. If a poet can inspire an editor to change the Bible..? ;)

I'm expecting that a Christian might tell me that we can never know the true message of God because human words can't define him in all his glory.. and if that's the case, what divine proof have we at all that God exists? That Jesus was miraculous? That the Bible is valid? If a divine being can only make his existence known through the text, why should we believe in the Christian Bible and not the religious holy documents of any other religion? Furthermore, why should we believe the writings of uneducated Hebrews who wrote something around 2,000 years ago? And I say uneducated (an uneducated man can still be a poet) because they were not advanced, evolved, knowledgeable. They believed, as I said, that demons cause illness, the earth was flat, geocentricism, etc. The Bible is in no way a perfect document as it is overflowing with inconsistencies and things that just don't make sense. Is this proof of divine inspiration, of truth? To reference these, go to www.skepticsannotatedbible.com.

I kind of feel like my ideas are just pissing people off. It seems that everyone disagrees with everything I say..?
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
apostle_ndr said:
I kind of feel like my ideas are just pissing people off. It seems that everyone disagrees with everything I say..?

Don't worry. You have just as much of a right to express yourself as the rest of us.... Let us respectfully disagree, but do not take our disagreements to heart.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
apostle_ndr said:
I kind of feel like my ideas are just pissing people off. It seems that everyone disagrees with everything I say..?
You did post your ideas in a debate forum...
 
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