I only know a little of the Caste system,what little i know is enough for me not to like it,can anyone defend it?
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The Caste system in India
- Thread starter England my lionheart
- Start date
monta
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I was completely unaware that there is a similar social structure in Japanese society until recently.
Burakumin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Burakumin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thats bad,i dislike this a lot
Good point,i just so dislike it
I know that my society has some of these elements but there is no restriction on changeing that,the Caste system is restrictive and discusting IMO
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
The caste system, Indian-wise, is split into two; "jati/gotra" and "varna".
What I've heard from many apologetics is that the varna system is dynamic and not based upon one at birth and that one can choose what varna they go into, as well as there being no discrimination based on it (except that Shudras did not take the Sacred-Thread Ceremony) and that the jati/gotra system is a static (inherited) and corrupted version of the varna system that was either made by ignorance, desire to keep power with the select few, or forced upon the followers because of outside influence. Hindu members, please correct me if I've gotten anything wrong, or if I've been given dodgy information.
Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Bali, Japan and Korea had caste systems, as well as some African countries. Hinduism is usually blamed for the caste system, but this is not the case: Japan and Korea were never Hindu but were Buddhist, and Sri Lanka has a Buddhist majority. The caste system is even encountered between Christian and Muslim converts to their faiths from lower castes, and even Sikhs end up taking from the caste system, despite it being explicitly forbidden within Sikhism to discriminate based on caste.
Even in today's world we sort of have a caste system, but we call it 'the caste'. Imagine how difficult it would be for someone like myself to get my children into Oxford or a private school, because I'm in a poor city and I'm a poorer citizen of that poor city.
We only have to look at Jeremy Kyle (monta's example) or Jerry Springer and we will often end up looking at them in disgust. We wouldn't want to give them a job in a bank if we worked in one, and we often portray those who are of the underclass (long-term unemployed) as druggies, thieves, and work-shy layabouts. It can often be very difficult to climb the class ladder, even today, even if one doesn't have a visible accent, as soon as one knows where you are from, where you studied in college/university, or what your parents were, there is every possibility that you will still be looked down upon.
I guess it's part of human nature, it's not something I like or would defend, but I guess many people are guilty of it and don't even realize it.
That's my opinion, anyway.
What I've heard from many apologetics is that the varna system is dynamic and not based upon one at birth and that one can choose what varna they go into, as well as there being no discrimination based on it (except that Shudras did not take the Sacred-Thread Ceremony) and that the jati/gotra system is a static (inherited) and corrupted version of the varna system that was either made by ignorance, desire to keep power with the select few, or forced upon the followers because of outside influence. Hindu members, please correct me if I've gotten anything wrong, or if I've been given dodgy information.
Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, Bali, Japan and Korea had caste systems, as well as some African countries. Hinduism is usually blamed for the caste system, but this is not the case: Japan and Korea were never Hindu but were Buddhist, and Sri Lanka has a Buddhist majority. The caste system is even encountered between Christian and Muslim converts to their faiths from lower castes, and even Sikhs end up taking from the caste system, despite it being explicitly forbidden within Sikhism to discriminate based on caste.
Even in today's world we sort of have a caste system, but we call it 'the caste'. Imagine how difficult it would be for someone like myself to get my children into Oxford or a private school, because I'm in a poor city and I'm a poorer citizen of that poor city.
We only have to look at Jeremy Kyle (monta's example) or Jerry Springer and we will often end up looking at them in disgust. We wouldn't want to give them a job in a bank if we worked in one, and we often portray those who are of the underclass (long-term unemployed) as druggies, thieves, and work-shy layabouts. It can often be very difficult to climb the class ladder, even today, even if one doesn't have a visible accent, as soon as one knows where you are from, where you studied in college/university, or what your parents were, there is every possibility that you will still be looked down upon.
I guess it's part of human nature, it's not something I like or would defend, but I guess many people are guilty of it and don't even realize it.
That's my opinion, anyway.
I agree that we see it in just about every society its just i dislike the fact that is organised
Andal
resident hypnotist
Before you demonize the whole thing, take some time and research exactly what is going on here.
First and foremost, caste as it appears today is a misguided and tainted version of varna. Varna is the original Vedic social structure. One is ascribed a varna based on talents, habits, likes and dislikes, etc. If one has a talent for learning and practicing the Vedas and Upanishads and acts in ways that are morally pure then they are a brahmin. If someone likes to fight, physically strong, and good at governing or military strategy then they are kshatriya. And it goes on like this.
We're not sure exactly what happened but by 1000-500 BCE varna went from being inclination based to birth based. This probably has to do with the establishment of new large kingdoms and the need to differentiate Hindus from invading Persians and Greeks. Also by this point the tradition of taking over one's family's business became established. It should be noted to that there have been a number of reformers who have denounced caste and changed how it has practiced. Unfortunately though the greed of some coupled with the misapplication of Dharmashastras has created a type of caste hegemony.
Once the Muslims and British entered the subcontinent they stoked the fires of caste and used the subsequent results to solidify their power. The British for example would manipulate caste differences to keep people from unifying.
It should be noted too that the caste system is very complex. It is not just caste but also jati. A jati is a subgroup of a caste usually based on regional, linguistic, or occupational differences.
In modern India caste is more fluid, people can change castes through marriage (for women), initiation (mostly for men but sometimes women too), and through occupation. The Indian government has made caste illegal however they enact policies in support of lower caste members. Plus it's hard to break rural people of such stratifications.
I in no way support the caste system as it appears today. I think varna is good but caste is incredibly problematic because it disenfranchises the majority of the population. Many Indians themselves don't like it either. In Tamil Nadu, for example, there is a huge anti-Brahmin movement because caste is seen as a vestige of oppression.
I have met a couple of brahmins who openly support caste but they seem to be few and far between. Most people I talk to are either blatantly and actively against it or they feel powerless to change it.
Aum Hari Aum
First and foremost, caste as it appears today is a misguided and tainted version of varna. Varna is the original Vedic social structure. One is ascribed a varna based on talents, habits, likes and dislikes, etc. If one has a talent for learning and practicing the Vedas and Upanishads and acts in ways that are morally pure then they are a brahmin. If someone likes to fight, physically strong, and good at governing or military strategy then they are kshatriya. And it goes on like this.
We're not sure exactly what happened but by 1000-500 BCE varna went from being inclination based to birth based. This probably has to do with the establishment of new large kingdoms and the need to differentiate Hindus from invading Persians and Greeks. Also by this point the tradition of taking over one's family's business became established. It should be noted to that there have been a number of reformers who have denounced caste and changed how it has practiced. Unfortunately though the greed of some coupled with the misapplication of Dharmashastras has created a type of caste hegemony.
Once the Muslims and British entered the subcontinent they stoked the fires of caste and used the subsequent results to solidify their power. The British for example would manipulate caste differences to keep people from unifying.
It should be noted too that the caste system is very complex. It is not just caste but also jati. A jati is a subgroup of a caste usually based on regional, linguistic, or occupational differences.
In modern India caste is more fluid, people can change castes through marriage (for women), initiation (mostly for men but sometimes women too), and through occupation. The Indian government has made caste illegal however they enact policies in support of lower caste members. Plus it's hard to break rural people of such stratifications.
I in no way support the caste system as it appears today. I think varna is good but caste is incredibly problematic because it disenfranchises the majority of the population. Many Indians themselves don't like it either. In Tamil Nadu, for example, there is a huge anti-Brahmin movement because caste is seen as a vestige of oppression.
I have met a couple of brahmins who openly support caste but they seem to be few and far between. Most people I talk to are either blatantly and actively against it or they feel powerless to change it.
Aum Hari Aum
Thanks for the explanation,Monta made a good point about elements of the caste system is in all societies,perhaps the caste system in India is more harsh.
Certainly one of the worst things to do when reading up on other cultures is to focus only on texts that were written by someone else.
I say that Varna is based on inclination, not birth. Brahmins can be born to Shudras, and vice-versa. It can basically be culturally translated thus:
Intellectual
Competitor
Economist
Worker/Artist
(Yeah, there's more than four in truth; these are just the basics.)
An intellect is someone who primarily loves thinking and studying things. Scientists, scholars, priests, etc. A competitor is someone who is full of pride and relishes in competition and victory. Sports players, leaders, etc. Economists aren't necessarily businessmen but people who are very economic with their lifestyle. People who save money, constantly weigh gain and loss, etc. Workers and artists are just that: people who perform hard labor and/or do art.
And I'd like to say that just because the class system isn't organized or official, it's still just as present as the modern caste system is in India, and nearly as rigid. So I say it's not a significant enough improvement to start pointing fingers at other cultures.
I say that Varna is based on inclination, not birth. Brahmins can be born to Shudras, and vice-versa. It can basically be culturally translated thus:
Intellectual
Competitor
Economist
Worker/Artist
(Yeah, there's more than four in truth; these are just the basics.)
An intellect is someone who primarily loves thinking and studying things. Scientists, scholars, priests, etc. A competitor is someone who is full of pride and relishes in competition and victory. Sports players, leaders, etc. Economists aren't necessarily businessmen but people who are very economic with their lifestyle. People who save money, constantly weigh gain and loss, etc. Workers and artists are just that: people who perform hard labor and/or do art.
And I'd like to say that just because the class system isn't organized or official, it's still just as present as the modern caste system is in India, and nearly as rigid. So I say it's not a significant enough improvement to start pointing fingers at other cultures.
monta
.
Perhaps life in India is a little more harsh.
Yes it is,i am being judgemental i know,after the history my Country shares with India it isn't surprising
OK point taken,i still dislike the caste system whether its in India or South Kensington
I have yet to learn of Varna,btw i did'nt think that you did
Andal
resident hypnotist
It's not that the caste system is more harsh in India, it's that they don't pretend it doesn't exist like we do in the west.
Feudalism is only just dying out in rural India. As in Feudal Europe, place in society is fairly static. If your father was a blacksmith so will you and your children be, and your family will be referred to as 'Smith'.
In rural India you can still find places with traditional jatis -- smiths, herders, serfs, &c, though the system is, thankfully, crumbling.
Varna seems to me more an idealistic fantasy than an actual working social system.
In rural India you can still find places with traditional jatis -- smiths, herders, serfs, &c, though the system is, thankfully, crumbling.
Varna seems to me more an idealistic fantasy than an actual working social system.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend My Lionheart,
Not trying to defend it But just to explain how it developed.
Like any organisation we have different job profiles according to talents/qualifications which is for a smooth running of the organisation and not division os people into classes similarly the society of the day in India had this system of different jobs for different people according to talent and so there were four broad categories The Brahmins [intellectuals] The Khastriyas [warriors] Vyasyas [business} and sudras [ laborers.]
They had sub-divisions again according to the job/talent profile.
However the Brahmins who were intellectuals started to bend the rules to their advantage being intellectuals and spread that that this classifications means classes with rankings and so the deformity of the caste system started.
Love & rgds
Not trying to defend it But just to explain how it developed.
Like any organisation we have different job profiles according to talents/qualifications which is for a smooth running of the organisation and not division os people into classes similarly the society of the day in India had this system of different jobs for different people according to talent and so there were four broad categories The Brahmins [intellectuals] The Khastriyas [warriors] Vyasyas [business} and sudras [ laborers.]
They had sub-divisions again according to the job/talent profile.
However the Brahmins who were intellectuals started to bend the rules to their advantage being intellectuals and spread that that this classifications means classes with rankings and so the deformity of the caste system started.
Love & rgds