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The Caste System

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
So the Caste system was brought up in another thread which reminded me of a discussion I wanted have long ago. Now being a product of where I was raised I don't put much value in the Caste system as a positive form of government. But I do believe there is a Spiritual Caste system. I believe very much in genetics (as most people do). To me our karma effects where and who we will born as again. Different bodies with different genes and skills and weaknesses, our body is like our caste. It is then our duty to discover what we are meant to do and to then be the best at it. I feel I am meant to be a teacher, sure I can do other things but that's out of "my caste" and I won't be very good.or happy.

Any thoughts on this?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So the Caste system was brought up in another thread which reminded me of a discussion I wanted have long ago. Now being a product of where I was raised I don't put much value in the Caste system as a positive form of government. But I do believe there is a Spiritual Caste system. I believe very much in genetics (as most people do). To me our karma effects where and who we will born as again. Different bodies with different genes and skills and weaknesses, our body is like our caste. It is then our duty to discover what we are meant to do and to then be the best at it. I feel I am meant to be a teacher, sure I can do other things but that's out of "my caste" and I won't be very good.or happy.

Any thoughts on this?

I think you're just tuning into the original intention - :) Personal inclinations manifested.
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
I think you're just tuning into the original intention - :) Personal inclinations manifested.

I'm sure the orginal intention for the caste system idea was more along what I said and less for a bases for Government, but there is more.

So just as you had mentioned people can work out of their caste and go higher I feel this true spiritualy. Take for example alcaholism, they found it is genetic. Yet people get help and fight beyond their biological beed for alcahol all the time. I think this is where the soul comes in. We born into these bodies strengths and faults included. But just like moving beyond to a better caste in the government, I think with force of will and spiritual growth we can move beyond our "biological caste".
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As far as souls being reborn in the west, I often think that the west appears appealing from India, and at or near death, individual souls seek bodies in the west. Then, once they get over here, and see the reality at about age 15-20, their seed karmas and past life remembrances hit them, and they just try to undo the mistakes, (Oh, my God, what have I done?) so to speak, and return to their 'ancestral ways'.

Course I could be dead wrong.
 

Fireside_Hindu

Jai Lakshmi Maa
My interrpretation of the original purpose of the caste system was that at one time, when you only have a village of a couple hundreds people, you needed someone in charge of hunting, or farming or raising the cattle, and people with natural talent did those jobs because everyone needed to survive. But as time passed, populations grew and machines took over a lot of duties, there was room for people to expand, to evolve and grow into alternative jobs. It just so happens that people in power found the caste system to be rather convenient for keeping power and thus the corrupted version we have today.

This is why a certain passage in the Gita still befuddles me. The one where Krishna says that it is better to do one's dharma badly then another man's dharma well. Well, do we grow into our Dharma? Or is it passed off to us based on Karma? It seems to me if everyone is just destined to be something, no questions asked, there is no room for spiritual evolution. You stagnate, which sort of defeats the purpose of even being reborn into a body.

I say life is a refining process and we are all in the process of remembering who we are. We all have our strengths and the choice becomes whether to follow that strength or hide it and do what the world tells you to do.

:camp:
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
Different bodies with different genes and skills and weaknesses, our body is like our caste.

To be honest I think this is dangerous ground and can be misunderstood, and misused.

To say that genetics applies this to skill levels is dangerous. We have seen this throughout history many times already. A lot of discrimination has been done with this excuse.

It is then our duty to discover what we are meant to do and to then be the best at it. I feel I am meant to be a teacher, sure I can do other things but that's out of "my caste" and I won't be very good.or happy.

I think it was meant to be more like that. If you are trained to be teacher, a doctor or a garbage collector, all these skills are important and you should be proud to be part of whatever profession you have. Then this was taken advantage of and if I understand it right, they lost their flexibility and you or your children could never get out of them. I don't think it was ever meant to be like that.

Maya
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
My interrpretation of the original purpose of the caste system was that at one time, when you only have a village of a couple hundreds people, you needed someone in charge of hunting, or farming or raising the cattle, and people with natural talent did those jobs because everyone needed to survive. But as time passed, populations grew and machines took over a lot of duties, there was room for people to expand, to evolve and grow into alternative jobs. It just so happens that people in power found the caste system to be rather convenient for keeping power and thus the corrupted version we have today.

That's an excellent explanation, I've never thought of it like that before.

This is why a certain passage in the Gita still befuddles me. The one where Krishna says that it is better to do one's dharma badly then another man's dharma well. Well, do we grow into our Dharma? Or is it passed off to us based on Karma? It seems to me if everyone is just destined to be something, no questions asked, there is no room for spiritual evolution. You stagnate, which sort of defeats the purpose of even being reborn into a body.

I interpret this as that you should be true to yourself. For example a gay man could probably live a pretty "good" life pretending to be straight, marrying and having children. He could have dinner parties with his family and do everything that was expected of him. But he would be denying his true feelings and he would be lying to himself and everyone else.
It's better to be honest, marry a man, have children with him and live happily and honestly.

I think we grow into it due to karma, we learn from our mistakes and get better at it and eventually we will do what is best for ourselves and everyone else.



Maya
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
FH: Well how do you not know that tour fight to be an individual isn't genetics? I agree doing what society just says to do is wrong and I think searching for who you are is a important part of life. They say its soul searching, I think its more of finding out what the soul can do in this body. Your choices come up when deciding to do what is "right" or "wrong".

Maya: Just because something can be used incorrectly does not make any less a fact. The sad truth of the matter is genes (and emviornment) essentially make up who we (this body) are. I would never advocate."removing undesirable genes"(which is where I think you were going) but rather helping others find their place in the body they were given. I can't just ignore scientifically proven facts just because people may use it negatively .

This is also why I added that part about the soul. I think it is in the sould where we truly are. Take my alcaholic example again, though it is genetic we still as a society hold them accountable despite the fact they have little choice in the matter. So why hold people responsable for their actions? I feel it is there that the soul has the most power. We may have this body but we are not this body, to overcome it and grow beyond it is the souls wish.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
So the Caste system was brought up in another thread which reminded me of a discussion I wanted have long ago. Now being a product of where I was raised I don't put much value in the Caste system as a positive form of government. But I do believe there is a Spiritual Caste system. I believe very much in genetics (as most people do). To me our karma effects where and who we will born as again. Different bodies with different genes and skills and weaknesses, our body is like our caste. It is then our duty to discover what we are meant to do and to then be the best at it. I feel I am meant to be a teacher, sure I can do other things but that's out of "my caste" and I won't be very good.or happy.

Any thoughts on this?
It is very difficult as a Western adoptee, to gain any importance/significance to how this affected me on a personal level, so I couldn't even begin to understand how it relates to Hindus born within India.

Every attempt I made to involve myself in this debate previously, was met with the above response.

All I can say is that my Lord Siva loves all His Raja and Bhuta devotees equally. I actually learned this through the stories and devotions of Nandi, the Bull. To Siva, there is no 'Caste System' - all are welcome to sit at His Feet.

However, I must honor the opinions of those who live according to Vedic Tradition, as part of my Hindu Dharma, and even though I may not necessarily agree, I still must have respect for the Saints and Sages of old who, through their holy visions, brought the great and wonderful religion of Hinduism to the World.

Om Namah Shivay
 
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Kalidas

Well-Known Member
It is very difficult as a Western adoptee, to gain any importance/significance to how this affected me on a personal level, so I couldn't even begin to understand how it relates to Hindus born within India.

Every attempt I made to involve myself in this debate previously, was met with the above response.

All I can say that my Lord Siva loves all His Raja and Bhuta devotees equally. I actually learned this through the stories and devotions of Nandi, the Bull. To Siva, there is no 'Caste System' - all are welcome to sit at His Feet.

However, I must honor the opinions of those who live according to Vedic Tradition, as part of my Hindu Dharma, and even though I may not necessarily agree, I still must have respect for the Saints and Sages of old who, through their holy visions, brought the great and wonderful religion of Hinduism to the World.

Om Namah Shivay

I guess I should clarify that I do not believe in a Caste system that views anyone as being higher or lower then someone else. Just souls being born into different circirmstances.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
I guess I should clarify that I do not believe in a Caste system that views anyone as being higher or lower then someone else. Just souls being born into different circirmstances.
I believe if we are 'not Karma', 'not Veda', 'not Yajna' not even 'Moksha' then all of that 'Caste System philosophy' is just totally irrelevant to anything....but Shankaracharya said it first and kinda stole my thunder about it centuries ago.
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
I believe if we are 'not Karma', 'not Veda', 'not Yajna' not even 'Moksha' then all of that 'Caste System philosophy' is just totally irrelevant to anything....but Shankaracharya said it first and kinda stole my thunder about it centuries ago.

I can respect that.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Something related to Hinduism and I must put my 10 cents in (people give just 2 cents). So here is it.

First thing, kindly understand that we have two classifications. None of them is genetic. One is 'varna' or the natural inclination of a person to excel in in a particular job. The second is caste - jati, which so to say, which group does one belong to. The group of story tellers (charan, bhat), entertaining people with physical display, balancing on ropes, etc. (nat), catching snakes (kalbelia), making ornaments (swarnakara or sonar), iron-smith (Lohar), making pottery (Kumhar), trader (vaishya), farmer *bhumihar), etc.

The first social division was brought in by Aryans. It is not indigenous. Why I say this is because the Zoroastrians also have a similar four-fold division, which is mentioned in BhagawadGita (chaturvarnyam maya shrishtam, I created the four varnas), that of brahmins, warriors, traders and agriculturists, and those who work for others.

Now Bhim would not have been very successful as a teacher, and Arjuna would not have been very successful as a office worker. They were more suited for fighting, kshatriyas. But there were others who were obliged to change their profession. The first example is that of Vishwamitra. He was a king's son. But his natural inclination was towards shastras. So he put in effort and became a brahmarshi. Satyakama Jabali was the son of a women who in her younger days worked for others and had sex with many (prostitution), but his inclination also was that of a brahmin, and he went on to become a great sage of Hinduism. Vedavyasa was a mix of Aryan and indigenous persons, Sage Parashara and a fisher woman, Satyavati (Shudra) and compiled or wrote pratically half the books of Hinduism, the Vedas, Brahmasutras, Mahabharata, SrimadBhagawatham. His son through a maid (dasi - shudra), Vidur, too, was one of the wisest people of his time and a sage. There is a verse in RigVeda where a person says that his father is a chariot driver (kshatriya type), he himself is an iron-smith (Vaishya) and his mother is so and so (I do not remember the exact profession of his mother). But it shows that even in one family, there could be people of different varnas.

Caste was an indigenous social division and could depend on many things. For example, regional, I am a Kashmiri, but there are other jatis (castes) of brahmins, there are tamil brahmins, sarayuparin brahmins (brahmins living to the east of River Sarayu), Gauda brahmins (those of Bengal) and the deshastha (those of Konkan and Goa), and Kanyakubja (living near Kannauj), etc. Hundreds of different brahmin castes. Our language, food, and traditions may be different. So, it was thought that the best match could be in one's own caste/jati.

Then the hundreds of professions. People with different origins and tribal associations, Suryavamshis, chandravamshis, agnivamshis, yadavas, jats, gujars (probably the khazars of Kazakhistan), meena, ahirs, bhil, gond, etc. People with different beliefs, Ramanamis, Gorakhpanthis, Kabirpanthis, Smartas, Madhvas, etc.

When the Aryans assimilated into Hinduism, these thousands of castes were put into various varnas resulting in a double categorization which became fixed and according to birth. I am of brahmins varna and in jati, Kashmiri. There are further divisions but I would not confuse you with them. For example those who continued conducting rituals are known as 'gurus' and those who took up jobs with kings are known as 'karkuns' (clerical).

This all made the Hindu society. Of course, times have changed, and caste does not hold the society in the same way as it used to. Intercaste marriages take place. People take up professions which did not happen at one time. A person from a Shudra caste becomes a judge, a vaishya joins military, a brahmin may take up agriculture, and a kshatriya may start a business. There are no bars. But still, you would find an attraction towards studies in a brahmin family, and towards business in a vaishya family. Their relatives may also be engaged in business, and they talk about business in their homes, so naturally a person from a vaishya family may know more about business than a boy from a brahmin or a kshatriya family. They may have contacts which may make it easier to start a business. So, caste also is not without its advantages. An iron-smith or a sthapathy (architect) imparting the tricks of his trade to his son, etc.
 
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Maya3

Well-Known Member
Kalidas,

Maya: Just because something can be used incorrectly does not make any less a fact. The sad truth of the matter is genes (and emviornment) essentially make up who we (this body) are. I would never advocate."removing undesirable genes"(which is where I think you were going) but rather helping others find their place in the body they were given. I can't just ignore scientifically proven facts just because people may use it negatively .

What scientific facts are you talking about?
No I didn't mean that we should remove certain traits.
But before I continue, could you please clarify so that I understand it correctly.

Maya
 

Fireside_Hindu

Jai Lakshmi Maa
FH: Well how do you not know that tour fight to be an individual isn't genetics?


I don't. But my guess would be that neither do you given neither of us is a geneticist. I have read about two things : Temperament and personality. It is believed that temperament is influenced by genetics, but that personality is molded by nurture (Or lack there of). You are right that people are born with a propensity for certain things (Alcoholism, Diabetus, certain cancers etc) but propensity is not destiny and much can be influenced by environment and personal choice.

One thing I wanted to mention is something that annoys me about when westerners talk about the Indian Caste System. (This has nothing to do with anything you said Kalidas!:)) Of course most agree it is terrible, but all seem to treat it as if it doesn't exist in the western world. Sadly, in the west people are still treated differently or given different levels of privilege based on race, economic status, gender, religion and yes, even job. (If I told my mother I was marrying an lead singer in a garage band as opposed to an engineer I would definitely have had some resistance). So fight against the corrupt form of the caste system, we must, but let's not pretend like it doesn't happen hear. Just because we don't call it that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't just as bad.
:camp:
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Of course most agree it is terrible, but all seem to treat it as if it doesn't exist in the western world. Sadly, in the west people are still treated differently or given different levels of privilege based on race, economic status, gender, religion and yes, even job.

Glad you pointed that out. Remember the old saying "across the tracks" . Sometimes I think it is human nature to divide like that. I went to a very small 4 room rural school from Grade 1 to 9. We had 3 buses, as we were all in the agriculture class. Still, as students, we naturally divided into who came on which bus. One group was at the lower end of the social ranking. Why? I have no idea whatsoever.
 

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
I can respect that.
Cool beans. Yeah, I'm pretty much still dazed and in a 'wha? Caste System?' mood.

I can understand why others believe in it...the system (albeit outdated imho) has served the religion very well for centuries...

*brb pulling all His arrows out of my heart.
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
Kalidas,



What scientific facts are you talking about?
No I didn't mean that we should remove certain traits.
But before I continue, could you please clarify so that I understand it correctly.

Maya

Well from what I have come to learn in my Human and Child Development college courses is that as FH said genes and enviornment esse.tially make up who we are (or who we have a propencity to become). Genes given by your parents or overtime(epigenetic theory) Then your environment (or lack of) happens and your genes decide how you should act. This is just basic evolution. Now yes you are both very correct in thinking that people can (and always do) move beyond their genetic coding to work beyond and that our genes do not dictate we are garenteed to only be what they say we are(some would say this is just more genes, but I don't). I feel this exactly where the soul has the most control, which is where my idea(its really just me mixing modern science with belief) of a "biological" caste, dictated by karma
I know that the ancient scripts say nothing of genetics and biology being the cause of the caste system Aup. But why do you think Arjuna made a good warrior and not a sage? Yes of course his up brining , but honestly without his biology making it easy to build muscle. mass and to be able to remember military tactics all the training in the world can not teach these things. The caste system makes sense in an evolutionary sense too. Keeping people in similar groups with similar jobs only allowing marriage of one another would lead to common genes being the "norm" in this sub group. Which would only solidify t,he belief tchat staying in ones "place" is the proper thing to do. I have to commend the ancit Indian societies,
 

Kalidas

Well-Known Member
(Sorry had to continue here technical problems) Indian societies, for a civilization that knew nothing of genes they sure did have a strong command over them. Really all I'm doing is taking an old religious system and reapllying it to todays modern scientific understanding of genetics. Also yoor stories of people moving beyond their caste more or less helped prove some of my points. People can and are driven out of their caste. This can be related to the genes just weren't helpful for where they were put and they felt that they could not complete the duty given to them by society. Thus they yerned to find theur true dutu given to them by the Gods. Maybe it was their soul the very being of who they were that yerned for something new. I agree with FH in the idea that we should discover who we are, and that we are to then be the best "what ever we are" we can be."

Who knows I am totally capable of being wrong. As I said before just trying to find a coralation between ancient beliefs with modern science. No one has to agree with me. If you feel it is useless knowledge or not helpful feel free to ignore it as another "young abd dumb college kid who thinks he knows everything"... LOL.
 

Fireside_Hindu

Jai Lakshmi Maa
(Sorry had to continue here technical problems) Indian societies, for a civilization that knew nothing of genes they sure did have a strong command over them. Really all I'm doing is taking an old religious system and reapllying it to todays modern scientific understanding of genetics. Also yoor stories of people moving beyond their caste more or less helped prove some of my points. People can and are driven out of their caste. This can be related to the genes just weren't helpful for where they were put and they felt that they could not complete the duty given to them by society. Thus they yerned to find theur true dutu given to them by the Gods. Maybe it was their soul the very being of who they were that yerned for something new. I agree with FH in the idea that we should discover who we are, and that we are to then be the best "what ever we are" we can be."

Who knows I am totally capable of being wrong. As I said before just trying to find a coralation between ancient beliefs with modern science. No one has to agree with me. If you feel it is useless knowledge or not helpful feel free to ignore it as another "young abd dumb college kid who thinks he knows everything"... LOL.


I think what has to be remembered in a discussion about castes and genetics is that castes are basically jobs. The Potter caste, the Warrior caste, the Farmer's Caste etc. We're talking about a series of skills. Almost any skill can be taught to any person as long as they are able bodied and mentally "sound". Some may excell over others, but truly, anyone can learn anything, given a proper teacher, time and dedication. Genetics do not determine the skills we can learn and at best only marginally influence the degree to which we excel at them. But as some point, the degree to which you improve ceases to matter. An average blacksmith and an excellent blacksmith probably both know how to shoe a horse. Does the average blacksmith have to resign himself to a different vocation simply because he is not the best? Simply because it's "not in his genes"?

I can see the validity in Aup's point about how certain important and highly skilled vocations are strengthed by the ability to guarantee they get passed on from one generation to the next. Still, if I were a teacher I wouldn't want to waste my time teaching my child a skill who didn't care about the trade. I'd rather get a passionate apprentice who was willing to put in the work. People who are passionate AND skilled do the best work.

:camp:
 
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