The Catholic Church should be shut down

[metis]

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

That would be a violation of the Constitution plus is nothing short of a bigoted stereotype.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You can focus on whatever you want. I'm just saying folks should consider taking some personal responsibility in protecting their children instead of expecting other folks to do it for them.

That's fine and all but how will this bringing existing child abusing priests who are being protected by the Church to justice?

Really? I just stated my opinion on personal responsibility.

Is that what you did? Because you didn't mention personal responsibility once in that post. It was just you snidely inferring other people are virtue-signallers.

Sure, what about taking some personal responsibility with what happens with our kids.

And what about the child abusing priests taking some personal responsibility for what they choose to do to other people?

I suppose you want this thread to be about being angry with the Catholic Church instead of solutions.

What solutions to the problem of child-molesting priests have you offered again?

Ok go forth and vent your anger. Personally, I'm not interested in your issues with the Catholic Church.

Thanks for the permission, dad.

Yes I get that you have issues with the Church. I don't see that as healthy

Thanks, doc.

nor a position from which to actually solve problems, but you'll have to figure that out on your own.

You'll have to speak up. I can't hear your snide judgements from the foot of your ivory tower.

So were you actually involved with the Catholic Church abusing you or someone you know? Or is this something you are virtually outraged about?

Something I'm outraged about. Why do you make it sound like that's unusual or bad?

Because without real knowledge there it's easy to become outraged, but not so easy to come up with a workable solution.

What part of "class the Church as a criminal organisation and shut it down" doesn't look like a solution to you?

What's your workable solution since you're so determined we should have one?

suspect that's because you don't want to accept any responsibility. You just want to be outraged.

Why would a childless non-Catholic like myself need to accept responsibility for the Church protecting child molesters among other nefarious crimes? Do you want me to take responsibility for the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland too even though I'm Scottish?

I'm asking what is wrong with us. Maybe that's not a comfortable position for you.

The only thing uncomfortable about it is how asinine the question is. You're attempting to lump in non-Catholics as if we can reasonably be blamed which is rather counter to your talk of "I'm taking responsibility as a parent". You're not and we're not. The only ones responsible for priests choosing to abuse children are the abusing priests. Your position can be summarised as "let's blame people for having secrets kept from them".

Ah, so it is virtual outrage.
If you want to go about being outraged, that's fine. No need to drag me into it. I'm speaking from my position as a parent and taking responsibility to keep my kids safe from any and all predators.

Your "solution" thus far has been to sit and sneer at other people's reactions to a controversial issue. What a role model for your children.

That would be a violation of the Constitution plus is nothing short of a bigoted stereotype.

Why is this a bigoted stereotype and in what sense does criminalising an organisation full of law-breakers violate the Constitution?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Have you got any links about human trafficking and slavery within the RCC?

Yep:

Magdalene asylum - Wikipedia

BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain | Daily Mail Online

 

[Deidre]

That would be a violation of the Constitution plus is nothing short of a bigoted stereotype.

Um the RCC has been covering up crimes. For a long time. Against kids. Those are facts not a stereo type.

Those poor kids. Their lives ruined and everyone keeps defending the abusers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That would be a violation of the Constitution plus is nothing short of a bigoted stereotype.

There’s nothing unconstitutional about prosecuting priests and bishops for crimes they committed, even if it leaves the Catholic Church in the USA a bankrupt, hollowed-out shell.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There’s nothing unconstitutional about prosecuting priests and bishops for crimes they committed, even if it leaves the Catholic Church in the USA a bankrupt, hollowed-out shell.

How do you get from:

1. Priest A and B molest
2. Church cover it up

To

3. Convict priest A and B (Cool)
4. Children should be protected from priest C-Z
5. Blame the church for covering up priest A and B action
5. See all other priests as a threat to children

How does protecting the children against other priests as a whole solve the problem of child abuse itself?

How does the Church cover-up make itself responsibility for an individual priests actions?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How do you get from:

1. Priest A and B molest
2. Church cover it up

To

3. Convict priest A and B (Cool)
4. Children should be protected from priest C-Z
5. Blame the church for covering up priest A and B action
5. See all other priests as a threat to children

I don’t. Why would you think this is what I’m trying to do?

How does protecting the children against other priests as a whole solve the problem of child abuse itself?

In general, it doesn’t.

I mean, cases continue to come to light where abusive priests - known to the Church - still have access to kids, and there’s certainly benefit in putting these priests in jail, but simply prosecuting past abusers is no substitute for a responsible youth protection policy going forward.

(And it’s worth noting that when the Irish bishops tried to institute a responsible policy, the Vatican secretly told them to stop, telling them that the policy violated canon law.)

How does the Church cover-up make itself responsibility for an individual priests actions?

Are you asking me to explain tort law to you?

The Church cover-up often involves crimes itself. Also, organizations are generally liable for the actions of their employees:

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/w...-found-liable-for-an-act-of-an-employee-34389

 

[Deidre]

No one is saying that ^^ (post before that one)

I'm not saying that, anyway. I don't care what the Catholic congregation does, but the hierarchy is to blame, for the cover ups. This goes beyond ''a few bad apples'' ...it's a world wide cover up conspiracy. There have been people within the Vatican who have said that even Pope JP2 knew about it, but left a lot of the decisions up to the individual states. It's wrong, if you want to keep defending it, that's your choice.

 

[exchemist]

It’s interesting how many people think that their faith hinges on a building or a priest or a pope or a rabbi or an imam. God exists (imo) without any churches or mosques or temples at all. But religion convinces us that we need it or we lose God. That’s how the RCC became wealthy and others like it.

I think you touch on a very interesting aspect of religion here, which is not nearly often enough recognised.

It seems to me that the role of religion in people's lives is multifaceted. People get a range of things from it, of which a feeling of personal encounter with the sacred is just one, even if it is the ultimate goal of everything else. Organised religion also provides such things as:
- a thought-out system of belief,
- a guide to how to live one's life,
- a cultural tradition, linking the generations back through history and providing group identity,
- an aesthetic experience, facilitated by ritual (theatre), music and art, to take the faithful out of their daily lives and help them to achieve a spiritual frame of mind,
- a discipline to rest the mind and foster contemplation,
- a sense of community.

Many of these things require a lot of thought, work and organisation and would not be possible in practice without some kind of recognised role for religious specialist thinkers and leaders.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm I took Tort Law years ago in college. Forgot it so...

I don’t. Why would you think this is what I’m trying to do?

Thank you for being nice about it. In general, I wonder when priest X does something wrong. The church covers it up so the priest wont be at fault. Other priests have nothing to do with it. Yet, you (all) target priests as whole as if non celibacy and things of that nature will solve child abuse possibility when being a priest nor pedephile even has nothing to do with it.

Also, organizations are generally liable for the actions of their employees:

I know you (all) say the church is an organization, but as a religious organization, its laws and doctrines are not like a boss to his coworkers. When a catholic sins, say child abuse, the Church doesnt do anything because within its own rules, its hopefuly the sinner will go to confession. The responsibiity is on the Catholic to come to the church; as, its the catholics sin not The Church as a whole.

It cant be compared at all to a business. The "doctrines" are totaly off. There is no legal responsibility that the church abides by (in the states) but its governed by its own laws and doctrines. Its literally chuch and government separate.

While I dont see that separation as the best thing given catholics arent special in regards to sin. I do find the focus on blaming the church less productive then helping it and addresing the victims involved. While many people wont take a god-approach, it still wouldnt hurt to help a bit and talk about solutions.

The whole OP is basically putting down the church when the church just like anyone else, does better as a unit.

Thats ideal.

Does the cover-up prove that future priest are likely to commit child abuse?

 

[metis]

Um the RCC has been covering up crimes. For a long time. Against kids. Those are facts not a stereo type.

It is very much a stereotype because these priests form a small minority within even the oriesthood of the Church. Secondly, the real Church also includes millions of Americans that go to mass weekly. And, thirdly, it is a violation of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution to discriminate against a religion by shutting it entirely down.

 

[metis]

There’s nothing unconstitutional about prosecuting priests and bishops for crimes they committed,

I have never proposed that they shouldn't-- quite the reverse, even including prosecuting the bishops who moved these priests around.

 

[Deidre]

It is very much a stereotype because these priests form a small minority within even the oriesthood of the Church. Secondly, the real Church also includes millions of Americans that go to mass weekly. And, thirdly, it is a violation of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution to discriminate against a religion by shutting it entirely down.

I’m past this though and said it a few times in the thread. I said my stance changed to believing that the government should intervene.

 

[Deidre]

And no one said unveiled artist that all priests are at fault. ?

Just the ones who abused and those who in the hierarchy who covered it up.

 

[Sleeppy]

Matthew 18:6

And, whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hmm I took Tort Law years ago in college. Forgot it so...


Thank you for being nice about it. In general, I wonder when priest X does something wrong. The church covers it up so the priest wont be at fault. Other priests have nothing to do with it. Yet, you (all) target priests as whole as if non celibacy and things of that nature will solve child abuse possibility when being a priest nor pedephile even has nothing to do with it.

I haven’t said anything about celibacy. When I talk about a responsible youth protection policy, I’m talking about things like requiring regular criminal background checks and mandatory reporting of abuse claims to police.

I know you (all) say the church is an organization, but as a religious organization, its laws and doctrines are not like a boss to his coworkers.

Except this is precisely how it is. Google forcsome relevant cases if you don’t believe me.

If you’re saying that you don’t like this state of affairs, that’s a different matter. The Catholic Church doesn’t get special exemptions from the law.

Does the cover-up prove that future priest are likely to commit child abuse?

Most priests don’t abuse kids. The best stats we have put it at about 7% of priests. Far too high, but still not the majority.

The thing the church has done that makes future abuse more likely is quashing anti-abuse policies, particularly mandatory reporting provisions.

 

[Flame]

I do find the focus on blaming the church less productive then helping it and addresing the victims involved.

No. When the church is the one protecting them instead of outing them then they are part of the issue and need to take their part of the blame. The church doesn't need help, it needs to be ripped wide open to see the infection within.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have never proposed that they shouldn't-- quite the reverse, even including prosecuting the bishops who moved these priests around.

And if that actually happened, the consequences would be so severe that the Church would effectively be shut down.

 

[metis]

I said my stance changed to believing that the government should intervene.

As I also have long believed and still very much do. And this is already in place through the bishops here as they are obligated by the church and the law itself to report these violations to the civil authorities, and if they don't then their head may well be on the pike.

 

[metis]

And if that actually happened, the consequences would be so severe that the Church would effectively be shut down.

Not really. The Church is much more than just the clergy and the buildings.