The Catholic Church should be shut down

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I have read some of the above reports.
No, I do not believe that the Catholic Church should be shut down.
There must be millions of very decent, honest people in this Church.

Catch criminals, indict them, try them, convict them, sentence them, but let's not smash up a whole Church because of bad people who have hidden within.

If we did that we wouldn't have police forces left, even.

What country are you in where the Catholic Church acts as the police force?

The problem with this position is the Church isn't split into paedophile priests and "very decent, honest people". There's also a number of mid-high-level individuals who have over the course of decades, if not centuries, facilitated and protected the child abusers through use of the existing organisational structure. Paedophiles were moved from diocese to diocese which, by virtue of their semi-autonomous natures, meant it was hard to get word of what got them transferred to the new diocese in the first place.

The Church's own investigations have been... 'lacklustre' is an appropriate word but it isn't strong enough to convey what I mean. As an organisation the Roman Catholic Church has quite obviously failed to police itself so it becomes necessary for the secular world to take on this burden. The Church should be treated the same as any organisation found to be acting unlawfully. Considering the amount of Church resources that have been engaged in not just facilitating paedophilia, but also human trafficking, money laundering and slavery, it's a wonder people argue the Church should not be treated as a criminal organisation.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

The criminals who commit crimes must be punished as per the law of the land, irrespective of one's status or religious/non-religious position.

Religion should not be interfered with, however.

Regards

 

[oldbadger]

What country are you in where the Catholic Church acts as the police force?

Hi....
Oh no.......... high levels of sexual harassment and abuse of civilian workers by police officers have been exposed in most UK police forces .......... it seems that corruption and wickedness is being found everywhere, but that wouldn't cause me to warn young people off from joining such services....... that's what I meant.

The problem with this position is the Church isn't split into paedophile priests and "very decent, honest people". There's also a number of mid-high= level individuals who have over the course of decades, if not centuries, facilitated and protected the child abusers through use of the existing organisational structure. Paedophiles were moved from diocese to diocese which, by virtue of their semi-autonomous natures, meant it was hard to get word of what got them transferred to the new diocese in the first place.

You obviously know a lot about all of this, and so.......
Question:- How many priests are ordained in the Catholic Church across the World?
How many Catholic priests have been caught as sexual offenders of any age groups?
Thankyou

The Church's own investigations have been... 'lacklustre' is an appropriate word but it isn't strong enough to convey what I mean. As an organisation the Roman Catholic Church has quite obviously failed to police itself so it becomes necessary for the secular world to take on this burden. The Church should be treated the same as any organisation found to be acting unlawfully. Considering the amount of Church resources that have been engaged in not just facilitating paedophilia, but also human trafficking, money laundering and slavery, it's a wonder people argue the Church should not be treated as a criminal organisation.

Like Oxfam, you mean?
By all means, let's get every Charity, school, hospital, public service, hospice, orphanage, religion etc shut down where evidence of sexual abuse has been exposed.

But if we do you won't even have a Bank for your finances or shop to go to for groceries. Even our supermarket companies and Banks have been caught in dreadful frauds, you know.

 

[paarsurrey]

It's just astonishing that this group is held to a different standard that lay organizations. It would be one thing, if the hierarchy did their part to root out the bad apples, and admit them to the proper secular legal authorities, but they didn't. They covered up the abuse over and over and over...for decades...and like you say, maybe centuries. And it's indefensible. To think that all of these men didn't know that they should call the police, that they would put the confessional ''vows'' above protecting children, is ridiculous. They knew better. They didn't want to lose members...thus, money. Thus their power and reputation. They are a disgrace, and they need to be shut down. And all those who were involved, need to be rounded up...and put to trials. Sorry if you're a pedophile apologist, but in the real world, that's known as a crime.

"And all those who were involved, need to be rounded up...and put to trials."
A good suggestion.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Catholic Church's mission isn't to uphold Jesus' teachings. If it were, I wouldn't be posting this thread. Its mission is to uphold the Church. The abuse and cover ups are so vast and wide spread, it isn't a one off or anomaly. It was how they have operated for decades. Oops, centuries lol

They operated with the idea that what happens in the RCC, stays in the RCC. Recently, a cardinal that was complicit in one of the scandals, has only been ordered to leave his post, meaning he can't do priestly duties anymore, and he will live out his days in some random cottage, adjacent to the church. What a joke. He should be arrested and tried for engaging in criminal activity. Why are these men getting away with this??

I remember having a conversation with my parents recently about this, they are devout Catholics, and they make all kinds of excuses for the Church and their role in all of this. I remember believing so much good about the RCC, but not anymore.

I don't think it should be permitted to operate anymore. If it were a secular organization, or charity, it would be shut down. Or at the very least, many people arrested and tried for their crimes.

"And all those who were involved, need to be rounded up...and put to trials."

Very truly said.
Catholic Church promotes Pauline Christianity, not the true teachings of Jesus.
I believe Pauline Christianity is the wolf Jesus warned off.

Regards

 

[exchemist]

I should add to my previous post that most police forces prioritise crime investigations based on the level of the crime and the chances of conviction. I think RC qualifies on both counts.

A crime investigation is another thing entirely.

 

[exchemist]

exchemist you seem to want to take the easy and longterm route, and while you do so will not more evils happen?

The fact is that the hierachy of the RC has a system that it backs and defends, that makes the people they train likely to offend in large numbers. They apologise but never do anything to stop training pedophiles. So they actively encourage the practise. No one wants the RC made illegal. Just take out its power that furthers evil and pass control to new structures who actually believe child molesting is a crime that shouldn't happen, And get them to state that they will ensure they do not encourage such behaviour in the future (life imprisonment if they do). It really is that simple. Then move on to the next worst institution that guarantees such evils.

In parallel judge individual offenders as the criminals they are. As happens now. But at least one group of criminals would not find it so easy to go on the run using a well organised and funded escape route.

It is false (and defamatory) to say the church encourages paedophiles. It obviously does not. Like other UK organisations working with children, the Catholic Church in England now has a system of safeguarding at parish level to prevent this sort of thing. I do not know what happens in other countries but I expect similar measures are now taken.

As for "just take out its power", what does that mean and what would you do to achieve it?

 

[exchemist]

When it it comes to shutting down bad organizations here are a few to consider----------

[1] Hagana, Irgun and Stern gangs who threw bombs into buses, assassinated British and other officials and murdered Palestinians way before the Palestinians retaliated in kind. (what goes around comes around)

[2] IDF snipers picking out and shooting “children” in cold blood.

[3] Entire Palestinian villages whipped out, men, women and children and then building illegal settlements on top of the rubble.
https://rense.com//general21/pastzionist.htm

If this doesn’t sicken you then you are part of the problem.

But don’t just reject or accept what I have posted.

Google “Israel shooting children”

Google “Israel illegal settlements”

Once done, come back and try to defend what you saw/read------

No wait, the Hagana gang was renamed the IDF, so it will be hard but not impossible to shut them down too

????

 

[exchemist]

I understood that's what you were getting at. What I don't understand is why it might be discrimination to target the biggest & most problematic organisation first. That's not discrimination by any reasonable definition - it's prioritising our efforts to stamp out paedophilia. Is there any reason we shouldn't focus on the biggest organisation first?




I can see a number of problems with this:

1. It leaves the current power structure in place which will allow said organisations to continue self-policing their problems brushing their problems under the carpet;
2. It doesn't actually stop offences that are happening just now;
3. It does nothing to punish criminal behaviour on the part of organisations and individuals that has already happened through the vehicle of the law as should be done.

Recent history has shown us that organisations with a level of autonomy & influence comparable to the RCC can never be trusted to self-police. The pace of the (I suspect imaginary) reforms allegedly taking place within its ranks is slow to the extent that molesters and their enablers among the upper echelons are dying before the full extent of their crimes are uncovered so they can be brought to trial.

What law would you use to shut down the Catholic church? How would the government defend itself in the lawsuit that the church would lodge?

I'm afraid I simply do not see the supreme court of the USA, or England and Wales, or the EU agreeing that it was a fair and proportionate thing for a government to do.

Or perhaps you advocate mob rule instead, based on populist rabble-rousing via Twitter?

 

[james dixon]

I find it touching that people here are condemning Catholic Priests for doing bad things. The ones responsible should be held responsible and punished for their bad deeds. But just attacking them now because you have found an excuse to do so is wrong.

I have found myself making the same mistake.

When I found out about the Jews of Israel throwing bombs into school buses I condemned Israel for the bad act.

When I found out about the Jews of Israel assassinating European leaders I condemned Israel for the bad act.

When I found out about the Jews of Israel’s IDF snipers shooting Palestinian children in the head while the child was sitting at his/her desk, I condemned Israel for the bad act.

When I found out about the Jews of Israel killing everyone in a Palestinian village, leveling the village and then building a Jewish village on top of the rubble, I condemned Israel for the bad act.

Now in retrospect, wouldn’t it be better for me to condemn the individuals who carried out these acts instead of blaming “Israel” for these crimes--?

Now I admit I have strayed from the OP, some Priests do the wrong things and having said that, google “spitting on Christians” and then tell me if I should be condemning Rabbi’s as well.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The problem in the USA is the statute of limitations. this is not so in many other countries, including the UK, who has put many priests on trial for abuse committed many decades ago.
If you can not Try them, why would they bother do do anything about it?

 

[exchemist]

The problem in the USA is the statute of limitations. this is not so in many other countries, including the UK, who has put many priests on trial for abuse committed many decades ago.
If you can not Try them, why would they bother do do anything about it?

For the simple reasons that it is appallingly evil, badly damages trust in the church and causes the congregations to shrink. We see the results of this in the USA and in Ireland, and probably in the UK too.

I live in hope that one day the Catholic church will admit women priests and allow priests to marry. I am convinced that these measures would both solve the problem of the shortage of priests and normalise the sexuality of the priesthood. Celibacy is a wonderful romantic ideal, but I feel sure it leads in practice to a lot of twisted and repressed individuals, who can easily blow a fuse, with disastrous consequences.

 

[Deidre]

I have read some of the above reports.
No, I do not believe that the Catholic Church should be shut down.
There must be millions of very decent, honest people in this Church.

Catch criminals, indict them, try them, convict them, sentence them, but let's not smash up a whole Church because of bad people who have hidden within.

If we did that we wouldn't have police forces left, even.

That's true, and I've since changed my opinion since posting the OP. But, the problem is...they're not being indicted. They're not being arrested, and they're not being ''defrocked.'' Some have been, but many are not. Some may be dead, but many are old in age, and that shouldn't be a reason to not arrest them. But, still, what do we do when we don't see justice being carried out?

 

[Deidre]

The criminals who commit crimes must be punished as per the law of the land, irrespective of one's status or religious/non-religious position.

Religion should not be interfered with, however.

Regards

But, they're not being punished. That's the problem.

 

[Deidre]

"And all those who were involved, need to be rounded up...and put to trials."

Very truly said.
Catholic Church promotes Pauline Christianity, not the true teachings of Jesus.
I believe Pauline Christianity is the wolf Jesus warned off.

Regards

Interesting post. This could make for an interesting new thread. Hint. lol

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It is false (and defamatory) to say the church encourages paedophiles. It obviously does not.

The fact that abusive priests have been moved around from place to place and any investigations which have taken place have happened purely behind closed doors so as to not tip off secular authorities or the laity as to what said clergymen have done would suggest otherwise.

What law would you use to shut down the Catholic church?

That depends. On a national level within the UK there are a number of options. There's the Sexual Offences Act 2003 for England & Wales; there's the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 and there's the Sexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 2008. There's also the possibility of having the Church investigated & charged by SOCA under the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 which classes sexual assault as a form of organised crime. This might be the most appropriate.

On an international scope, there is the possibility of involving Interpol and bringing the Church to an international court on charges of facilitating child abuse, human trafficking and slavery.

How would the government defend itself in the lawsuit that the church would lodge?

That would depend greatly on what the lawsuit was based on and what it claimed. Discrimination?

I'm afraid I simply do not see the supreme court of the USA, or England and Wales, or the EU agreeing that it was a fair and proportionate thing for a government to do.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. That's no reason not to try.

Or perhaps you advocate mob rule instead, based on populist rabble-rousing via Twitter?

I don't - though I could see it going that way if more progress isn't made and people start to get the impression the Church truly is above the law.

That's true, and I've since changed my opinion since posting the OP. But, the problem is...they're not being indicted. They're not being arrested, and they're not being ''defrocked.'' Some have been, but many are not.

I concur. The few who have been defrocked have only had this happen if they've been caught by outside forces.

Some may be dead, but many are old in age, and that shouldn't be a reason to not arrest them.

Exactly. Age did not shield the victims from their predations; it will not protect the abusers either.

But, still, what do we do when we don't see justice being carried out?

That's a good question. If something isn't done then people will start to feel there is no court in the world for the RCC. I'd hate to think what might happen if people get fed up with paedo priests being let off the hook because nobody's got the stones to tackle the Church.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

As long as humanity has power they will abuse it. Yet our loving God continues remain silent as priest rape kids in his name.

 

[SomeRandom]

I don't know about shutting down the Church. I think a massive overhaul is in order though. They lost the right to investigate sexual abuse claims internally a long damned time ago. Anyone complicit in cover ups should face minimum jail time and I agree that all guilty parties should be treated as the criminals they are.
Maybe take some of their treasure as compensation as well.
And statute of limitations on sexual abuse? That's one thing that should immediately be demolished, IMO.
I'm unsure if Australia has that in our laws, I think we do and if so I think it's disgusting.

 

[Deidre]

I think God is always moving, and he wants us to move to see change through. God will not be mocked, so there will be a reckoning sooner or later.

As long as humanity has power they will abuse it. Yet our loving God continues remain silent as priest rape kids in his name.

 

[InChrist]

That would include the Methodist Church.

My partner was "broken in" about 10 years old by the youth pastor of the Methodist Church. When he told "the authorities" about it they launched into action. They made him apologize to Brother Marion and promise never to tell such lies again.

The next time Brother Marion did him up the butt, he was angry. It was a punishment eff. Dear Brother Marion, Methodist Youth Minister, still lives around here. If the Methodist Church ever did anything about him I don't know about it. As far as I can tell, the Methodists protected him until he just got too old to do it anymore.
Tom

That is so sad, Tom. Such awful abuse and enabling of it! Yes, that Methodist church should have been shut down. There are too many similar cases like this where children have been harmed in pretty much any church. That youth minister and all others like him should have the death penalty, IMO. They not only hurt and damage young lives, but misrepresent Jesus in the most blasphemous way.

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

Here is a link to a brave man who did the right thing by turning in his own father ( a pastor ) when it became known he had abused children for years. Too bad there are not more real Christians in church leadership willing to stand for the innocent against the perpetrators of evil.

JimmyHinton.org