The Christianity Complex

[The Sum of Awe]

I want to point out first: this is a critical question. that's not for any form of mocking. It's sincere questions that cause the doubt. So please tear down the wallpaper and show the wall.

Really long post. Pick and choose questions I suppose


First is about the Garden of Eden:

A) It seems clear to me that God expected Adam and Eve to sin. Otherwise; he could simply make the apples rotten or move the tree to another location, or even not creating the tree in the first place.

I think this story would fit well on some pagan deities, but is useless to an omniscient being such as God. Didn't God already knew they would sin. In fact, it looks like he wanted us to sin. So, then, is it really fair for them to be punished?

B) Why do humans have to be punished for the mistakes of two people a long time ago?


Next is about Noah's Ark:

A) Why use the method of a flood? Drowning and hypothermia doesn't seem like a peaceful death. I'd have suggested global heart attacks except for Noah and his family. It saves Noah time and labor, and saves plant life.


Now Freewill:

A) We rely on only a book written of God's story. And there are other religions and holy texts out there. Is this really just because of faith? But with all of these other religions we have no way in knowing. How can someone have the freewill of following or not following God if they aren't convinced of his existence?

B) Is it really freewill, if you are threatened? God says you have freewill, but if you do something he doesn't like, down you go into the fire pit of eternity.

Imagine that a man is in a dark alley, and has a gun to his head. The shooter says "give me money or die". So the man gives him his wallet. Weeks later he is found and the court punished the 'victim' because the victim didn't HAVE to hand over the money, they used freewill.

Hell:

A) If God created heavens and the earth, would it not be safe to say he created hell? If so, why did he create it? Why are we punished eternally - I don't see a point in that. Why not just allow them the peaceful void?

Nature of God:

A) Please be truthfully honest about this; Do you notice at least a hint of narcissism in God as explained before? Worship him, or spend eternity in hell.

Should I follow the morality of God, if my child didn't know i existed, i would throw him into a fire pit.

If you're to say that God doesn't send us there, we just go there on our own, then the baby put itself in the fire.


Jesus & Resurrection:

Why didn't God just snap his fingers and forgive us all instead of the method he used; killing his son/self.

How does death relate to sin cleansing.


I may ask more in the thread later. Appreciate your answers, thanks

 

[Nietzsche]

...

Question. Aren't these more "Abrahamic Complex" rather than Christianity? 90% of the stuff on that list is from the Old Testament. That's canon in all three branches. It's the one ****ing thing they can even agree on.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

free will

 

[Kolibri]

A) Why use the method of a flood? Drowning and hypothermia doesn't seem like a peaceful death. I'd have suggested global heart attacks except for Noah and his family. It saves Noah time and labor, and saves plant life.

There are a couple of possible reasons for using a Flood, and giving Noah time to build the Ark. It gave purpose to Noah's life as well as those that listened to him. They became 'God's fellow workers' towards the salvation of the human race. Noah was also called a preacher of righteousness, so people had time to hear and get on the boxy life raft. One possible reason for using the Deluge specifically was due to the rebellious angels that materialized human bodies for themselves to wear. Flooding the earth completely would force these spirit creatures to drop the flesh and return to the spirit realm where they were subsequently put in a state of reduced freedoms, a spiritual condemned state of darkness that 2 Peter 2:4 labels as Tartarus. Another possible reason was to flood the earth so less land mass would be available for human habitation after the waters settled, making the seas wider and deeper and the mountains steeper. This would restrict the spread of wickedness after the flood. This second reason is totally conjecture on my part.

The primary reason though would be that this event sets a precedent for a global cleansing of human society. This will happen once again at the great tribulation that Jesus foretold in Mt 24. This second time however, will be at a time when the issue raised in the Garden of Eden about the rightness of God's Sovereignty will have been fully settled. Many different governments independent of God have been tried and have failed to bring lasting peace and security to this earth. Never again will God need to allow time to settle whose governship is best for all. Independent rule is being proven to be a totally bankrupt way to go. As it is Independent rule vs God's rule, God has for the most part, temporally held back from protecting from all natural and man-made disasters and man-made cruelty. Otherwise he would be adding to the lie that independent rule is feasible. Instead he endures a tremendous amount of empathy, knowing he will be able to undo the harm and hurt completely in the general resurrection of mankind to come.

 

[Kolibri]

or spend eternity in hell.

There is no eternal torment.
Adam was told he would return to the state he was prior to being human - dust. Dead is dead. Any life after death depends on a recreating of the individual first. Satan lied when he told Eve she would not die, and the churches are perpetuating that lie by teaching that the soul is somehow immortal. The truly nonredeemable will not be tormented past death. They just cease to exist. In the Greek, the word for torment also means restrained or imprisoned. The torment is not literal.

 

[Katzpur]

Obviously, I'm going to answer from the Mormon perspective.

First is about the Garden of Eden:

A) It seems clear to me that God expected Adam and Eve to sin. Otherwise; he could simply make the apples rotten or move the tree to another location, or even not creating the tree in the first place.

I think this story would fit well on some pagan deities, but is useless to an omniscient being such as God. Didn't God already knew they would sin. In fact, it looks like he wanted us to sin. So, then, is it really fair for them to be punished?

We believe that God knew full well that Adam and Eve would sin. After all, He put them in a situation where they could hardly have been expected not to. They'd been told by the Lord not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but then here comes the master of deceit, promising them godhood for one little bite. Since we know that they didn't actually have knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, they can hardly be held accountable for a decision to do "evil." On the other hand, they were warned up front that there would be consequences for disobedience, so we believe God was entirely justified in following through with what He'd said would be their punishment.

Mormons actually hold Adam and Eve in high esteem. We believe that it was their decision to eat the forbidden fruit that got God's Plan of Salvation off to its start. We don't see the Fall in the same way most Christians do. We realize that while God didn't specifically want them to disobey Him, He realized that in order to grow and progress, they needed to come to know both good and evil. They needed to learn to make good choices, and there is no such thing as a good choice where no alternative choice is given.

B) Why do humans have to be punished for the mistakes of two people a long time ago?

They don't. Mormons believe that we will be punished for our own sins and not for Adam's transgression. Jesus Christ died on the cross to atone for the sins of all mankind, not all mankind except for Adam. We have all inherited a mortal nature and that nature is to look out for number one, even at the expense of hurting others. We do not inherit "sin," however. Sin is the intentional disobedience of God's laws. Nobody is born having sinned. Nobody will be held accountable for anyone's sins except his own.

Next is about Noah's Ark:

A) Why use the method of a flood? Drowning and hypothermia doesn't seem like a peaceful death. I'd have suggested global heart attacks except for Noah and his family. It saves Noah time and labor, and saves plant life.

I really couldn't say why God chose drowning as opposed to global heart attacks. That's one you'll have to ask Him in person when the time comes.

Now Freewill:

A) We rely on only a book written of God's story. And there are other religions and holy texts out there. Is this really just because of faith? But with all of these other religions we have no way in knowing. How can someone have the freewill of following or not following God if they aren't convinced of his existence?

If someone is not convinced of God's existence, He obviously won't base his actions on what the Bible or any other book has to say. I believe we're all born with a conscience, though, and I also believe that fundamental righteousness is based on adherence to what one knows to be right.

B) Is it really freewill, if you are threatened? God says you have freewill, but if you do something he doesn't like, down you go into the fire pit of eternity.

Again, not according to Mormonism.

Imagine that a man is in a dark alley, and has a gun to his head. The shooter says "give me money or die". So the man gives him his wallet. Weeks later he is found and the court punished the 'victim' because the victim didn't HAVE to hand over the money, they used freewill.

Uh... not a great example, if you don't mind my saying.

Hell:

A) If God created heavens and the earth, would it not be safe to say he created hell? If so, why did he create it? Why are we punished eternally - I don't see a point in that. Why not just allow them the peaceful void?

Mormons don't believe in an eternal hell, at least not as many Christian denominations do. We believe that essentially all of those who have ever lived will ultimately be granted access to Heaven. This is not to say that they will all receive the same reward once there. Jesus said that He would reward every man "according to his works." That's what we believe will happen. Only a very few people will end up in what we call "Outer Darkness." This is a place completely devoid of God's glory. It has been said that Mormonism believes in the largest Heaven and the smallest Hell of any denomination.

Nature of God:

A) Please be truthfully honest about this; Do you notice at least a hint of narcissism in God as explained before? Worship him, or spend eternity in hell.

Well, if I believed "worship him or spend eternity in hell," I'd say it was a bit narcissistic, but that's not what I believe so for me the question is moot.

Should I follow the morality of God, if my child didn't know i existed, i would throw him into a fire pit.

Nope. And neither will God.

If you're to say that God doesn't send us there, we just go there on our own, then the baby put itself in the fire.

Not going to say that either.

Jesus & Resurrection:

Why didn't God just snap his fingers and forgive us all instead of the method he used; killing his son/self.

God gave us commandments for a reason. Why would He simply turn a blind eye when we disobeyed? To me, He wouldn't be much of a God if He did that. Again, though, the Mormon belief on God's Plan of Salvation differs from traditional Christianity's in several respects. First of all, we believe that we each had a choice of whether to come here or not. Mortality was not forced upon any of us. We believe that we are here in order to gain a physical body and to learn to make choices that will make us better people and the world a better place. To us, salvation is much, much more than merely avoiding hellfire and then sitting on a cloud forever strumming a harp. We believe that we are children of God and that He has given each of us the potential to someday become like Him. For us, God just "snapping His fingers and forgiving us all" would make His entire plan meaningless. We need to take responsibility for our actions. We can't grow otherwise.

How does death relate to sin cleansing.

I'm assuming you're referring to Jesus' death, so I'll answer with that in mind. We believe, as I have already stated, that when a debt (i.e. sin) is incurred, it must be repaid. We could each have been forced to endure the punishment for our own sins, but instead, Jesus Christ volunteered to pay the debt for us. This is not to say that we play no part in our own salvation. We believe that He atoned for the sins of the repentant sinner, and not just for everyone who says, "I believe! Save me!" To us, faith in Jesus Christ is integrally tied to faithfulness to Jesus Christ. His sacrifice cleansed us because it paid the price for our sins.

 

[Kolibri]

Why didn't God just snap his fingers and forgive us all instead of the method he used; killing his son/self.

How does death relate to sin cleansin

From the time of Noah (edit:well Abel too), blood was said to represent life. Perfect human life was lost when Adam and Eve sinned. The price to buy back life was the blood of a sacrifice of equal value. So Jesus, unlike the angels that wore human bodies before the Deluge, became completely human, partly to pay that price, partly to demonstrate his Father's personality, and partly to provide a model for us to live by. Since he still had the right to angelic life, he could be resurrected back to spirit form, and then present the value of his shed blood to our God. It has to do with the scales of justice. Under the Law given to the Israelites we learned that Jehovah's standard of Justice thru the courts required a life for a life. He found a way to satisfy Justice w/o any lasting harm. And he found a way that allowed him to demonstrate his love for us. He sent his only direct creation, his best.

 

[lovemuffin]

Jesus & Resurrection:

Why didn't God just snap his fingers and forgive us all instead of the method he used; killing his son/self.

How does death relate to sin cleansing.

Most of my answers on the other questions are going to involve eschewing literal/historical readings, which is probably not what you are looking for, but on this one I think there's something rather important to be said. It is certainly the case that in western Christianity, soteriology in the last few hundred years has focused almost entirely on a forensic or juridical understanding of the crucifixion as Substitutionary atonement. Which, there's no denying that's part of the biblical understanding. But I think it's lacking something which is found in the eastern tradition, where the Incarnation is understood not just to be about forgiveness of sin, but also about deification of humanity.

The eastern understanding involves the idea that in order for God to deify some other nature, he has to assume it, to become it. This idea of transforming something or knowing something by union with it is very important in eastern Christian mysticism generally, both in terms of understanding the meaning of the Incarnation and in terms of understanding union with God in the spiritual life. Additionally, because of Trinitarian theology, the crucifixion is seen less in terms of God sacrificing some other being, but as kenosis: self-emptying, dying to self in order to live in new Life, which is also powerfully symbolic. I don't think it's supposed to be understood purely in terms of some logical process.

With regard to questions like "why not just snap his fingers", I think in part an answer could be given which questions the cataphatic theology that posits the metaphysical omnipotence of the Divine in this way, where all logical possibilities are open. I'm not sure that concept is emphasized in the same way in eastern mystical theology. Beyond that, there is an interesting concept in eastern orthodoxy which they call "economy". Somewhat in reference to the direct greek etymology of the word (order of the house), it is this idea that God orders certain things in a way that doesn't make strict logical sense from God's perspective, as we might understand that to be, but because it is meaningful for us, for humans. The symbology of Incarnation, of God becoming Man so that Man might become God (to paraphrase Athanasius), of following after Christ in dying to self and being reborn, symbolized in baptism, all this is not strictly necessary from God's perspective but can be profoundly meaningful to us. Or at least it has been to me, both aesthetically but also in terms of my own experience of conversion, repentance, and spiritual life.

edit: note, my "post first, edit second" strategy may have been a poor choice for this post, but if a lot of things looked wrong the first time you tried to read this, it might be fixed now

 

[Kolibri]

Imagine that a man is in a dark alley, and has a gun to his head. The shooter says "give me money or die". So the man gives him his wallet. Weeks later he is found and the court punished the 'victim' because the victim didn't HAVE to hand over the money, they used freewill.

Imagine a child that wants to play in the street. You warn the child that there are consequences. Imagine this child as an adult that persists in harming his fellowman. You warn the person, and eventually you protect the ones that are peaceable, by removing this rebel. Life is a gift. Since we are not righteous, it is not a right. When we are finally perfect again we will be righteous in the fullest sense instead of just declared righteous. Many parts of the Bible have Jehovah pleading with people to respond to counsel.

"'As surely as I am alive,' declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why should you die?'" - Ezekiel 33:11

 

[Bunyip]

Reading this reminded me of all those nights watching Dr Who with my dad. He would endlessly harp on about how the tardis was contradicting the laws of physics. Maybe he never quite grasped what sci-fi means.

 

[jeager106]

Reading this reminded me of all those nights watching Dr Who with my dad. He would endlessly harp on about how the tardis was contradicting the laws of physics. Maybe he never quite grasped what sci-fi means.

Are you suggesting the Bible is sci-fi or just fiction?
Just asking.
How long has Dr. Who been aired? I thought it a relatively new phenomenom?
Or are you just 16 years old. Just asking.
Don't get'cher shorts in a tither, I am not being nasty in any way.

 

[Bunyip]

Are you suggesting the Bible is sci-fi or just fiction?
Just asking.

It is mythology, so yes - much of it is fiction.

How long has Dr. Who been aired? I thought it a relatively new phenomenom?

Dr Who first aired in 1963.

Or are you just 16 years old. Just asking.
Don't get'cher shorts in a tither, I am not being nasty in any way.

I'm not wearing shorts - it's too hot today. But I am not getting my budgie smugglers in a knot anyway.

 

[jeager106]

I want to point out first: this is a critical question. that's not for any form of mocking. It's sincere questions that cause the doubt. So please tear down the wallpaper and show the wall.

Really long post. Pick and choose questions I suppose


First is about the Garden of Eden:

A) It seems clear to me that God expected Adam and Eve to sin. Otherwise; he could simply make the apples rotten or move the tree to another location, or even not creating the tree in the first place.

I think this story would fit well on some pagan deities, but is useless to an omniscient being such as God. Didn't God already knew they would sin. In fact, it looks like he wanted us to sin. So, then, is it really fair for them to be punished?

The creation story is ancient Hebrew prose or poetry intended for an audience that was illiterate by today's standards.


B) Why do humans have to be punished for the mistakes of two people a long time ago?


Next is about Noah's Ark:

A) Why use the method of a flood? Drowning and hypothermia doesn't seem like a peaceful death. I'd have suggested global heart attacks except for Noah and his family. It saves Noah time and labor, and saves plant life.

I don't have many aswers except that paintings of the ark show a ship with bow, stern, rudder, etc.
According to the assembly instructions for the ark it would have been a simple rectangle. No boat required, they weren't to do anything but float.
Might be this is another ancient Hebrew poem/prose with the "moral of the story to be understood.

Now Freewill:

A) We rely on only a book written of God's story. And there are other religions and holy texts out there. Is this really just because of faith? But with all of these other religions we have no way in knowing. How can someone have the freewill of following or not following God if they aren't convinced of his existence?

B) Is it really freewill, if you are threatened? God says you have freewill, but if you do something he doesn't like, down you go into the fire pit of eternity.

Imagine that a man is in a dark alley, and has a gun to his head. The shooter says "give me money or die". So the man gives him his wallet. Weeks later he is found and the court punished the 'victim' because the victim didn't HAVE to hand over the money, they used freewill.

Hell:

A) If God created heavens and the earth, would it not be safe to say he created hell? If so, why did he create it? Why are we punished eternally - I don't see a point in that. Why not just allow them the peaceful void?

The "hell" you refer to is false doctrine, does not, never did, exist.
The word hell in the Bible should NOT be in the cannon, tradition and scaring hell out of Christians and Muslims seem to be the "in thing".
Note the Jews never, ever, had any notion of a place of eternal torment.
Jesus was a Jew, so why would he invent hell that he didn't even know about.
Hell is really a pagan concept anyway.



Nature of God:

A) Please be truthfully honest about this; Do you notice at least a hint of narcissism in God as explained before? Worship him, or spend eternity in hell.

See expanation of hell above.

Should I follow the morality of God, if my child didn't know i existed, i would throw him into a fire pit.
Above.

If you're to say that God doesn't send us there, we just go there on our own, then the baby put itself in the fire.


Jesus & Resurrection:

Why didn't God just snap his fingers and forgive us all instead of the method he used; killing his son/self.


That is way too simplistic a question but valid. I'm tired. Later.
How does death relate to sin cleansing.


I may ask more in the thread later. Appreciate your answers, thanks

 

[bobhikes]

I may ask more in the thread later. Appreciate your answers, thanks

For what ever reason throughout the bible God wants humans to have the choice to be good or bad. I can speculate on why but you won't agree and it would only be speculation.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Really long post. Pick and choose questions I suppose

First of all, nice formatting. It is more spaced out, making it less blocky and hard to read.

A) It seems clear to me that God expected Adam and Eve to sin. Otherwise; he could simply make the apples rotten or move the tree to another location, or even not creating the tree in the first place.

Keep in mind though that God also had the tree of life in the same garden. So he was actually taking an incredibly considerable risk. What if the snake had been smart enough to feed adam & eve from both trees? What then, they become intelligent gods and take over the universe?

A) Why use the method of a flood? Drowning and hypothermia doesn't seem like a peaceful death. I'd have suggested global heart attacks except for Noah and his family. It saves Noah time and labor, and saves plant life.

Obviously an old human memory of the last glacial melt, probably making it one of the oldest stories humankind has. Even if there was barely any sin, those glaciers still had to melt, causing a flood anyway.

I don't feel like thinking about the other questions right now, so there you go.

 

[Nietzsche]

The creation story is ancient Hebrew prose or poetry intended for an audience that was illiterate by today's standards.

They were pretty damn illiterate even by the standards of the age, let's not kid ourselves.

 

[Ingledsva]

Reading this reminded me of all those nights watching Dr Who with my dad. He would endlessly harp on about how the tardis was contradicting the laws of physics. Maybe he never quite grasped what sci-fi means.

LOL! I tend to do the same thing, and the guys just sigh in my direction. I can't help it - the errors are just glaring, and the critique just pops out. But I do try to keep quiet, and just enjoy the shows.


*

 

[Bunyip]

LOL! I tend to do the same thing, and the guys just sigh in my direction. I can't help it - the errors are just glaring, and the critique just pops out. But I do try to keep quiet, and just enjoy the shows.


*

It's funny. I drive my son crazy doing the same thing.

 

[Kolibri]

It's funny. I drive my son crazy doing the same thing.

I am so glad I get to watch these in peace.

 

[Unification]

I want to point out first: this is a critical question. that's not for any form of mocking. It's sincere questions that cause the doubt. So please tear down the wallpaper and show the wall.

Really long post. Pick and choose questions I suppose


First is about the Garden of Eden:

A) It seems clear to me that God expected Adam and Eve to sin. Otherwise; he could simply make the apples rotten or move the tree to another location, or even not creating the tree in the first place.


7 day creation is of the human. Adam, Eve, and serpent are one individual. Entire story and bible are about inside of humans' and KNOWLEDGE. The mind/brain, while carnal and deceiving needs re-established by God.
Need the mind to get the truth.

I think this story would fit well on some pagan deities, but is useless to an omniscient being such as God. Didn't God already knew they would sin. In fact, it looks like he wanted us to sin. So, then, is it really fair for them to be punished?

Correct, mankind was given the capability of knowledge. The ability the think, know, will, and feel.

B) Why do humans have to be punished for the mistakes of two people a long time ago?

They aren't. We punish ourselves.


Next is about Noah's Ark:

A) Why use the method of a flood? Drowning and hypothermia doesn't seem like a peaceful death. I'd have suggested global heart attacks except for Noah and his family. It saves Noah time and labor, and saves plant life.

The flood is metaphorical for the arrival of God, energy/light in our bodies destroying the nonsense.

Now Freewill:

A) We rely on only a book written of God's story. And there are other religions and holy texts out there. Is this really just because of faith? But with all of these other religions we have no way in knowing. How can someone have the freewill of following or not following God if they aren't convinced of his existence?

Mankinds empire created religion off this book meant to be internal/spiritual.
Free will was given to mankind in Genesis 1:26

B) Is it really freewill, if you are threatened? God says you have freewill, but if you do something he doesn't like, down you go into the fire pit of eternity.

Reap what we sew while alive and after death. No such thing at an eternal pit of eternity. carnality of man is burned up, what was sewn to spirit in this life will be circumstances in next life, unless the truth is found and the cycle of resurrection is broken. If you live like an animal in this life, one will reincarnate as an animal in the next. Fear, the complete opposite of God's nature.. Is quite the tool man's carnal vain mind uses to oppress people, imagine that. How anti-God yet they deceive themselves. How tragic.


Imagine that a man is in a dark alley, and has a gun to his head. The shooter says "give me money or die". So the man gives him his wallet. Weeks later he is found and the court punished the 'victim' because the victim didn't HAVE to hand over the money, they used freewill.

If one wants evil gone from him, and the mental/conscious torment of hell in their minds ridden of, they must live right.


Hell:

A) If God created heavens and the earth, would it not be safe to say he created hell? If so, why did he create it? Why are we punished eternally - I don't see a point in that. Why not just allow them the peaceful void?

God did create the heavens and earth, metaphorical for spirit and body in a human. Head and body. Hell isn't a place. It's a state of mind/conscious.

Nature of God:

A) Please be truthfully honest about this; Do you notice at least a hint of narcissism in God as explained before? Worship him, or spend eternity in hell.

Again, mankind has created religion and ran with it, man's empire.

Should I follow the morality of God, if my child didn't know i existed, i would throw him into a fire pit.

Absolutely one should follow the morality of God. He's in you, and everyone... Fear God.

If you're to say that God doesn't send us there, we just go there on our own, then the baby put itself in the fire.


Jesus & Resurrection:

Why didn't God just snap his fingers and forgive us all instead of the method he used; killing his son/self.

He did forgive us all. The reason any human can do wrong and not be completely consumed by the pure energy of God and still exist and live in this world is due to the water and blood in our bodies.


How does death relate to sin cleansing.

Forgiveness of sin and cleansing of sin are two different elements. One is cleansed after a change of mind and heart, inside.... Where blood and water are. Energy. Flood. Energy/light raining down from heaven(our heads) into earth(our bodies).

I may ask more in the thread later. Appreciate your answers, thanks

Expand all.