The Christiano-Islam Revelation Concept

[arcanum]

Ok. I'll be honest. I thought up the term before I thought of the question. Anyway.

I've kind of pointed this out in another thread with regards to Islam, but I wanted to develop the idea a little more.

Essentially, this concept of interpreting Scriptures to fit a "new" revelation that wasn't previously known or expected, is an idea in the Abrahamic pathways, that began with Christianity.

Judaism was running along when all of a sudden a religious development in the form of Jesus, brings a new revelation of/from G-d, to the religion that is expected to replace the previously understood religion.

Then Christianity does its Christian thing for a number of hundred years, when the newest prophet Muhammad, explains that G-d actually wanted to add a couple new tweaks to the previous tweakings He hath twooketh.

So I guess the question is, why do you Christians, ignore Judaism's claim that the TaNaCH and indeed the religion was already perfect before you came, but then turn around and voice those same claims to Muslims?

Why do you Muslims not believe Christians when they explain to you that your interpretation of their Scriptures is wrong, but then go ahead and tell our Bahai friends the same explanation about the Quran?

If you agree that a new revelation forces a reinterpretation of the previously understood passages of your predecessor, why do you deny the same to your successor?

Well there is some controversy, because many would say that Jesus wasn't trying to start a new religion, or a new sect outside of Judaism. Especially in Matthew's gospel, the most Jewish of the gospels, he says to adhere to the law. Then along comes a fellow named Paul, who had never met Jesus, and it is he who says the law was no longer necessary. It was he would made a whole new religion out of the Jesus movement and changed everything, it became a very different movement once it was taken to and embraced by the gentile world. I don't think Jesus was trying to say the old laws no longer applied because he had arrived on the scene.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well there is some controversy, because many would say that Jesus wasn't trying to start a new religion, or a new sect outside of Judaism. Especially in Matthew's gospel, the most Jewish of the gospels, he says to adhere to the law. Then along comes a fellow named Paul, who had never met Jesus, and it is he who says the law was no longer necessary. It was he would made a whole new religion out of the Jesus movement and changed everything, it became a very different movement once it was taken to and embraced by the gentile world. I don't think Jesus was trying to say the old laws no longer applied because he had arrived on the scene.

Jesus was raised in, and by, State/familiar Law; this doesn't mean he agreed with everything and everyone. Some of our patriots are legislators and judges-- and other media(tors), and teachers.

 

[arcanum]

Jesus was raised in, and by, State/familiar Law; this doesn't mean he agreed with everything and everyone. Some of our patriots are legislators and judges-- and other media(tors), and teachers.

I wasn't referring to state law, I was referring to the law of Moses.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well there is some controversy, because many would say that Jesus wasn't trying to start a new religion, or a new sect outside of Judaism. Especially in Matthew's gospel, the most Jewish of the gospels, he says to adhere to the law. Then along comes a fellow named Paul, who had never met Jesus, and it is he who says the law was no longer necessary. It was he would made a whole new religion out of the Jesus movement and changed everything, it became a very different movement once it was taken to and embraced by the gentile world. I don't think Jesus was trying to say the old laws no longer applied because he had arrived on the scene.

Jesus indeed revealed new Laws. For example:

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery" Luke 16:18

Moses did not reveal such a thing.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Essentially, this concept of interpreting Scriptures to fit a "new" revelation that wasn't previously known or expected, is an idea in the Abrahamic pathways, that began with Christianity.

However, according to Jewish Text, Noah had a different Law than Moses. Moses had 10 commandments. Noah had 7? So, according to Scriptures why did God gave Moses a revelation that had different Laws in comparison with Noah?
(I suggest for the same reason that God gave a different Law to Baha'u'llah, ....than Muhammad, ...than Jesus, ...than Moses.)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I can assure you; God's judgement occurs every day (moreso, continuously). Those who are looking and waiting will die, according to the judgement on Adam. And if they've raised children, these children will know the zealous God of their father.

However, there is a particular Day, called Judgement Day or Day of Resurrection, in Which the Dead rises. According to Baha'i Scriptures that Day came to pass. A new revelation by which the Spiritually Dead is raised.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Peace upon you Tumah
Before getting into the details of all your concerns we need to put facts in proper prospective.Hence i have some simple questions for you.
1.Who invented this "ism" called "Judaism"?
2.What is the meaning of an "ism"?
3.What is the ethmology of the word "Judaism?

Tks in advance.
Peace
Farouk

Peace be to you too. Now I have a question for you. What does the following Hadith mean to you?

"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766

Specially the part that is underlined. What does it mean?

 

[Sleeppy]

I wasn't referring to state law, I was referring to the law of Moses.

Which is... Israel's Law. The Law gives borders to both the land and the people.

You should be able to see the parallels in your own society.

 

[Sleeppy]

However, there is a particular Day, called Judgement Day or Day of Resurrection, in Which the Dead rises. According to Baha'i Scriptures that Day came to pass. A new revelation by which the Spiritually Dead is raised.

The dead also rise continually-- especially according to spiritual birth, as you say. Decomposition, and childbirth both achieve this, as well. God places prophets in each home, and messengers within every mind-- He doesn't delay it for any amount of years, or cut His word off. Nor has He chosen discriminately. God is not a God of dead men-- but of living. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus as living spirits. The universe is not dead, and we did not arise from dead elements. God can neither be wasteful or unjust.

 

[arcanum]

Which is... Israel's Law. The Law gives borders to both the land and the people.

You should be able to see the parallels in your own society.

I wouldn't call it Israel's law as the Law transcends region and apply's to Jews wherever they may hang their hat, whether or not that's in Israel makes no difference.

 

[arcanum]

Jesus indeed revealed new Laws. For example:

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery" Luke 16:18

Moses did not reveal such a thing.

That really isn't a new law as it is an intensification of an existing law, reflecting one's inner state, which he deemed equally as important as one's outer action.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That really isn't a new law as it is an intensification of an existing law, reflecting one's inner state, which he deemed equally as important as one's outer action.

Call it what you will...new law,...modification in law, or intensification of law. The point is God made changes and revealed a new Revelation in accordance to the circumstances. Why Moses did not intensify that law from beginning?

 

[arcanum]

Call it what you will...new law,...modification in law, or intensification of law. The point is God made changes and revealed a new Revelation in accordance to the circumstances. Why Moses did not intensify that law from beginning?

I think Jesus teaching often focused on the inner man or one's inner state, while traditional Judaism seems more focused one's outward action.

 

[Sleeppy]

I wouldn't call it Israel's law as the Law transcends region and apply's to Jews wherever they may hang their hat, whether or not that's in Israel makes no difference.

If Jews are accepting of it. Jews won't rebuild their Temple unless it's in Israel. How many of the other Laws are disregarded due to circumstances like this one? -- However, the point wasn't whether or not it was/is State Law; Jesus didn't agree with any and everything written or said in God's name. The same is true of any Jew today.

 

[farouk]

Peace to all.
Tumah
According to you the Greeks were responsible for providing the origin to the word Ioudaios which was used to describe the citizens of Judah(Jews).
Lets move on.
Ioudaios in english means Judaism.Judaism in Hebrew means Yahadat.Hence Yahadat is a term used by Greeks to describe the people(Jews) of Judah.
This word Yahadat never existed during the time of Moses nor did it ever exist during the time of Jesus(PBBUTB).
Now if you agree with my above statement of fact then please let me know so that i can address your OP.
If you disagree with my statement of fact then please provide me with evidence and proof to the contrary.
Peace
Farouk

 

[Tumah]

If you know God, you know that He created of Himself with a great scope of diversity. You are easily able to misunderstand, and/or disagree with your own mother and father, who gave you your genetic being. So, keep in mind the complete sovereignty of God over all things; your question should be submitted to God, who has already established tomorrow.

Can't you just say, "It was god that did it, ask him."?

Well there is some controversy, because many would say that Jesus wasn't trying to start a new religion, or a new sect outside of Judaism. Especially in Matthew's gospel, the most Jewish of the gospels, he says to adhere to the law. Then along comes a fellow named Paul, who had never met Jesus, and it is he who says the law was no longer necessary. It was he would made a whole new religion out of the Jesus movement and changed everything, it became a very different movement once it was taken to and embraced by the gentile world. I don't think Jesus was trying to say the old laws no longer applied because he had arrived on the scene.

Interestingly, this idea was the position of an 18th century Rabbi. He suggested that if you separate the gospel by who the subject is talking to, it would come out that Jesus was always telling Jews to follow the Law and always telling non-Jews something along the lines of the 7 Noahide Laws.

However, according to Jewish Text, Noah had a different Law than Moses. Moses had 10 commandments. Noah had 7? So, according to Scriptures why did God gave Moses a revelation that had different Laws in comparison with Noah?
(I suggest for the same reason that God gave a different Law to Baha'u'llah, ....than Muhammad, ...than Jesus, ...than Moses.)

- They didn't have different Laws, Moses Laws were in addition to "Noah"'s Laws. At no point did/does the Noahide Laws stop being commanded on all of mankind.
- And Moses didn't just bring 10 commandments, those are just what were on the tablets. He brought 613 commandments.
- And that didn't have to do with an Age. There was no other time available to give these Laws to Israel.
- Giving Israel the Laws was the plan from day one, only which nation would get the name Israel was in question.

Peace to all.
Tumah
According to you the Greeks were responsible for providing the origin to the word Ioudaios which was used to describe the citizens of Judah(Jews).
Lets move on.
Ioudaios in english means Judaism.Judaism in Hebrew means Yahadat.Hence Yahadat is a term used by Greeks to describe the people(Jews) of Judah.
This word Yahadat never existed during the time of Moses nor did it ever exist during the time of Jesus(PBBUTB).
Now if you agree with my above statement of fact then please let me know so that i can address your OP.
If you disagree with my statement of fact then please provide me with evidence and proof to the contrary.
Peace
Farouk

Well, Yahadut. But yes, it comes from the name Yehudah or Judah. To my knowledge it didn't exist in the time of Moses. But yes it did exist in the time of Jesus as we see in a number of places in Esther, including the last 3 chapters.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

- They didn't have different Laws, Moses Laws were in addition to "Noah"'s Laws. At no point did/does the Noahide Laws stop being commanded on all of mankind.
.

What about this? is it not a change?

God said in the time of Noah: “Every moving thing [i.e., all animals] that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things” (Genesis 9:3), but with Moses only the beasts mentioned in Leviticus chapter 11 were allowed or disallowed: 1The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2“Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.......

- And Moses didn't just bring 10 commandments, those are just what were on the tablets. He brought 613 commandments.
- And that didn't have to do with an Age. There was no other time available to give these Laws to Israel..

I am not sure if I understand what you mean. Let me ask this question another way. Why did God reveal these 613 Laws to Moses, but not to Noah in the first place? why was it postponed to future? Noah live 950 years according to scriptures. I suppose there was enough time for God to reveal these Laws to Noah to complete the Revelation earlier in time, but He didn't. Why not?

 

[Tumah]

What about this? is it not a change?

God said in the time of Noah: “Every moving thing [i.e., all animals] that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things” (Genesis 9:3), but with Moses only the beasts mentioned in Leviticus chapter 11 were allowed or disallowed: 1The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2“Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.......

The Moseside (?) Laws are Laws fit within the boundaries of the Noahide Laws. There is nothing that is permitted in the 613 that is prohibited in the Noahide Laws. They are an additional 606, not a replacement.

I am not sure if I understand what you mean. Let me ask this question another way. Why did God reveal these 613 Laws to Moses, but not to Noah in the first place? why was it postponed to future? Noah live 950 years according to scriptures. I suppose there was enough time for God to reveal these Laws to Noah to complete the Revelation earlier in time, but He didn't. Why not?

Because the 613 were not intended for all of mankind, they were intended for Israel. Moses didn't bring the Laws for all of mankind either. They were brought specifically for Israel. The Noahide Laws didn't stop being in effect when Moses brought his Laws. Noah's apply to the entire world. Moses' applies specifically to Israel.

What was postponed was deciding who would gain the title Israel and inherit those 613 Laws. Once G-d chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He waited until Abraham's children became a nation and the time they had to remain in Egypt ended, then He gave them the Laws.

 

[farouk]

Well, Yahadut. But yes, it comes from the name Yehudah or Judah. To my knowledge it didn't exist in the time of Moses. But yes it did exist in the time of Jesus as we see in a number of places in Esther, including the last 3 chapters.[/quote]

Peace
The Greek term Yahadut(Judaism) according to you existed in the time of Jesus.Can you be more specific and quote from the verses of Esther because i cannot find it.
Tks in advance
Farouk

 

[Sleeppy]

Can't you just say, "It was god that did it, ask him."?

I could, but that might become misleading/inaccurate.. What would Isaiah say?