The Church and Sex

[angellous_evangellous]

Too often I see folks give the church too much credit for coming up with the idea that sexal expression is a sin. It is true that Augustine is largely responsible for wildly popularizing the modern view of sexuality in the church (eg, no birth control, sex outside of marriage is sin, and sex is only for reproduction).

The standards in the New Testament are pretty high, but consistent with Greco-Roman philosophy. The Greco-Roman culture was highly sexual, celebrating sex in all its forms: pederasty, homosexuality, and heterosexuality. The Jewish culture was not highly sexual - forbidding homosexuality and pre-marital sex (as evident in the Hebrew Bible, the rabbis, and the NT). The Greco-Roman philosophers called people to live not according to their passions but according to reason. Similarly, the Christian leaders (Jesus, Paul, the apostles, and church fathers) echoed this call (sometimes indeed citing the Greco-Roman philosophers) and spiritualized it - while the Greco-Roman culture at large merrily ignored both the philosophers and the Christians.

Churches assert that a monogamous couple expressing that kind of love for one another is wrong and is a terrible sin. When the fact is such a concept (the fact that it is evil and condemned) does not exist in the Bible. It is a dogma that was formed by churches due to guilt and shame.

footnotes:
Socrates and Jesus on Lust
The Greco-Roman concept of original sin
Aristotle and Romans 7
The Philosophers Saved Humanity

 

[Mister_T]

Too often I see folks give the church too much credit for coming up with the idea that sexal expression is a sin. It is true that Augustine is largely responsible for wildly popularizing the modern view of sexuality in the church (eg, no birth control, sex outside of marriage is sin, and sex is only for reproduction).

The standards in the New Testament are pretty high, but consistent with Greco-Roman philosophy. The Greco-Roman culture was highly sexual, celebrating sex in all its forms: pederasty, homosexuality, and heterosexuality. The Jewish culture was not highly sexual - forbidding homosexuality and pre-marital sex (as evident in the Hebrew Bible, the rabbis, and the NT). The Greco-Roman philosophers called people to live not according to their passions but according to reason. Similarly, the Christian leaders (Jesus, Paul, the apostles, and church fathers) echoed this call (sometimes indeed citing the Greco-Roman philosophers) and spiritualized it - while the Greco-Roman culture at large merrily ignored both the philosophers and the Christians.



footnotes:
Socrates and Jesus on Lust
The Greco-Roman concept of original sin
Aristotle and Romans 7
The Philosophers Saved Humanity

I had linked a terrific article earlier in that thread that dealt largely with Constantine's impact on sex and churches. Too bad the link no longer works. What exactly are you trying to get at?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Too bad the link no longer works. What exactly are you trying to get at?

That the church did no more than broadcast values that were already widely present in the Greco-Roman world. The Socratic, Cynic, Stoic, and Platonic and Neo-Platonists all called people to live according to reason rather than passion - Augustine was a Neo-Platonist... so was Justin the Martyr - and possibly John Cyrostosom (sp?) - all of whom famously denounced sex. We shouldn't give the church credit for creating a worldview that is anti-sex because they didn't.

 

[Mister_T]

That the church did no more than broadcast values that were already widely present in the Greco-Roman world. The Socratic, Cynic, Stoic, and Platonic and Neo-Platonists all called people to live according to reason rather than passion - Augustine was a Neo-Platonist... so was Justin the Martyr - and possibly John Cyrostosom (sp?) - all of whom famously denounced sex. We shouldn't give the church credit for creating a worldview that is anti-sex because they didn't.

Got it

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Got it

Good.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

That the church did no more than broadcast values that were already widely present in the Greco-Roman world. The Socratic, Cynic, Stoic, and Platonic and Neo-Platonists all called people to live according to reason rather than passion - Augustine was a Neo-Platonist... so was Justin the Martyr - and possibly John Cyrostosom (sp?) - all of whom famously denounced sex. We shouldn't give the church credit for creating a worldview that is anti-sex because they didn't.

How did they "denounce sex"? Saying that sex should be within a certain context and treated as sacred is not denouncing it at all, it is elevating it to a level of respect, honor, and value. Saying that the mainstream Christian view is "anti-sex" is simply untrue. Christians are not anti-sex...none of us would be alive without it, after all. However, we recognize that it is healthy and moral only in certain contexts and for specific purposes.

FerventGodSeeker

 

[nutshell]

But the Church extended any philosophies their teachings were based on and created rules or commandments governing the nature of sexual activity. For example, from Elizabethan to Victorian England, sex was to be between a married man and a married woman and for reproduction only. In addition, it was only to be conducted in the missionary position - all other forms of sex were equally considered sodomy: homosexuality = bestiality = girl on top = male masterbation - they were all the same, pervisions of the "natural" sex God intended. In some situations, women's undergarments were designed with slits above the vagina. This allowed sexual access without exposing the body.

There were two exceptions to the sexual rules: Lesbian sex and female masterbation. These were not considered sin because they did not involve procreation.

 

[Damien Sid Malery]

I am not going to turn this into a huge homosexuality debate but I will express my views on this matter.

Homosexuality: The same as having sex with animals or consented sex with children.

Sex out of marriage: I have yet to see a bible verse which denounces it. I seriously don't reccomend it though. Also, keep your promises to god, promises to other human beings are far less important.

Masturbation: Bah! If we didn't have hormones no one would even think about doing it. Don't do it. There are better things you could be doing with your time.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I am not going to turn this into a huge homosexuality debate but I will express my views on this matter.

Homosexuality: The same as having sex with animals or consented sex with children.

Sex out of marriage: I have yet to see a bible verse which denounces it. I seriously don't reccomend it though. Also, keep your promises to god, promises to other human beings are far less important.

Masturbation: Bah! If we didn't have hormones no one would even think about doing it. Don't do it. There are better things you could be doing with your time.

What on earth are you trying to say? - that you think of homosexuality like this or someone else?!

Is it seriously your view that homosexuality is like beastiality or sex with children?