The Copper Scroll

[Redemptionsong]

Understandably. The authorities will want to be convinced that there is a real prospect of finding something of interest and they will have to keep in mind the potential disturbance and destruction caused by the digging.

That's where a project based only on YouTube videos, and bypassing professional archaeology, may come to grief.

Once again, to be fair to Barfield, he has not acted unofficially. He has taken his research to the authorities (department of Antiquities, l believe) in lsrael and has attempted to persuade them that his research is worth following up.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Perhaps it depends on, what is the purpose, why people want to do it. I think it is not necessary, because:

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Jesus and his disciples are the temple of God.

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

Do you think the scriptures indicate that a temple will be rebuilt?

 

[exchemist]

Once again, to be fair to Barfield, he has not acted unofficially. He has taken his research to the authorities (department of Antiquities, l believe) in lsrael and has attempted to persuade them that his research is worth following up.

No doubt. But the best way to persuade them would be to publish his research and allow archaeologists to comment on its value.

 

[capumetu]

I agree with you that the temple of Christ is spiritual [Revelation 21:22]. Does this preclude the possibility that a temple will be rebuilt to satisfy those Jews who see a rebuilding as essential for obedience to the Torah?

Tell me, what do you think the 'abomination of desolation' [Matthew 24:15; Daniel 9:27; 11:31] refers to?

Great question Song, we learn the answer to that in a parallel account found at Luke 21:20 which reads:
(Luke 21:20, 21) . . .“However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her,

Without Luke clarifying it, it likely would have been very difficult to have discerned that. Thanks for the question.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Great question Song, we learn the answer to that in a parallel account found at Luke 21:20 which reads:
(Luke 21:20, 21) . . .“However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her,

Without Luke clarifying it, it likely would have been very difficult to have discerned that. Thanks for the question.

Daniel 9:27 says, 'And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.'

Many consider this prophecy from Daniel to point to a future week, or seven year period. If it does, then there must be a temple in operation because the sacrifice and oblation only cease in the midst of the week. Or is the 'sacrifice and oblation' not referring to temple activities?

Luke 21:20,21 seems to prophesy what will happen during the Jewish wars (66-70CE) when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem. Are you saying that Luke 21:20,21 refers to a future surrounding of the city? If so, why does verse 24 say, 'And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.' ?

 

[capumetu]

Daniel 9:27 says, 'And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.'

Many consider this prophecy from Daniel to point to a future week, or seven year period. If it does, then there must be a temple in operation because the sacrifice and oblation only cease in the midst of the week. Or is the 'sacrifice and oblation' not referring to temple activities?

Jesus was sacrificed in the middle of that week, the prophecy was of the Messiah. We believe he was 33.5 yrs old, his sacrifice ended all sacrifices. The covenant (Law) was kept in force for another 3.5 yrs for the Jews to accept the new covenant and be baptized by holy spirit becoming part of the Israel of God. The covenant for them closed in 36, and gentiles being allowed to hold that position, Cornelius being the first uncircumcised gentile listed to become part of the little flock.

Luke 21:20,21 seems to prophesy what will happen during the Jewish wars (66-70CE) when the Romans surround Jerusalem. Are you saying that Luke 21:20,21 refers to a future surrounding of the city? If so, why does verse 24 say, 'And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.' ?

The prophecy given was a two-fold prophecy, and not all aspects of it apply to both the destruction of Jerusalem, and the destruction of satan's system. Thankfully Luke made clear the meaning of it in the first century. In this case however we believe that it does apply to this time period as well. We believe: In the first fulfillment, the “standing in a holy place” occurred in 66 C.E. when the Roman army (“the disgusting thing”) attacked Jerusalem and its temple (a place holy in the eyes of the Jews). In the larger fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be the beginning of the great tribulation.

Hope that helps to clarify our understanding

 

[Redemptionsong]

No doubt. But the best way to persuade them would be to publish his research and allow archaeologists to comment on its value.

I've just come across these words written by Shelley Neese:
'I first wrote about Jim Barfield and the Copper Scroll for a 2009 Jerusalem Post Metro Edition cover story. I spent the next six years documenting every central event of his excavations as they unfolded, and those chronicles now make up my debut book: The Copper Scroll Project. I painstakingly researched the mysterious metal scroll in order to put it into context. I poured over stacks of books and scholarly journals about Israeli archaeology, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran, Temple architecture, Tabernacle vessels, the Essenes, Hebrew epigraphy, and any other relevant materials that I could access. The deeper I dived into this project, the greater my conviction grew that the story of the Copper Scroll Project needed to be told, and that I was the only person fully equipped to tell it.'

From this, I gather that Jim Barfield has made some excavations, but quite what they revealed I do not know. I guess I'll have to read the book.

 

[exchemist]

I've just come across these words written by Shelley Neese:
'I first wrote about Jim Barfield and the Copper Scroll for a 2009 Jerusalem Post Metro Edition cover story. I spent the next six years documenting every central event of his excavations as they unfolded, and those chronicles now make up my debut book: The Copper Scroll Project. I painstakingly researched the mysterious metal scroll in order to put it into context. I poured over stacks of books and scholarly journals about Israeli archaeology, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran, Temple architecture, Tabernacle, vessels, the Essenes, Hebrew epigraphy, and any other relevant materials that I could access. The deeper I dived into this project, the greater my conviction grew that the story of the Copper Scroll Project needed to be told, and that I was the only person fully equipped to tell it.'

From this, I gather that Jim Barfield has made some excavations, but quite what they revealed I do not know. I guess I'll have to read the book.

And all, seemingly, without publishing anything in the archaeological journals, where it can be commented on by experts.

This, unfortunately, is what charlatans, self-publicists and cranks do. He may be none of those things, but it looks, on the face of it, fishy. Shelley Neese, we already know, is part of the Barfield team, and evidently she too has chosen not to present the findings of the team for expert review, but instead to write a book for popular consumption. I'm afraid I've seen this pattern too often before. Almost invariably it turns out that, after a lot of breathless promotion, videos and even TV documentaries, the findings lead nowhere and the people behind it turn out to be cranks, at best.

I'm not holding my breath on this one.

P.S. It is a bit shocking that a journalist would mix up "pouring" and "poring". I start to wonder how professional she really is.

 

[exchemist]

Doing a bit of further digging on Barfield et al, it seems he is sponsored by something calling itself "119 Ministries" which is part of something called the Hebrew Roots movement, a somewhat strange offshoot of Christianity that tries to reincorporate a lot of the Jewish law and tradition back into a form of non-Trinitarian Christianity.

I also see that Barfield's team seems to have encouraged the idea that they have discovered the location of the Ark of the Covenant.

So we seem to be on a sort of "Mysteries of the Ancients" cum "Raiders of the Lost Ark" kick, here. At any rate, these people clearly have a powerful motive for wanting to whip up excitement about treasures of the temple, the Ark etc.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And all, seemingly, without publishing anything in the archaeological journals, where it can be commented on by experts.

This, unfortunately, is what charlatans, self-publicists and cranks do. He may be none of those things, but it looks, on the face of it, fishy. Shelley Neese, we already know, is part of the Barfield team, and evidently she too has chosen not to present the findings of the team for expert review, but instead to write a book for popular consumption. I'm afraid I've seen this pattern too often before. Almost invariably it turns out that, after a lot of breathless promotion, videos and even TV documentaries, the findings lead nowhere and the people behind it turn out to be cranks, at best.

I'm not holding my breath on this one.

P.S. It is a bit shocking that a journalist would mix up "pouring" and "poring". I start to wonder how professional she really is.

I think your criticisms are harsh, and may say something about your own prejudices.

P.S. The spelling error was mine, as it was not 'cut and paste'!

 

[exchemist]

I think your criticisms are harsh, and may say something about your own prejudices.

P.S. The spelling error was mine, as it was not 'cut and paste'!

No it wasn't. The passage you cut and pasted it from was this one, containing the exact words, including the spelling mistake: About Shelley Neese | Author of "The Copper Scroll Project"

But I see you did correct "dove" into "dived.

So now, I have to say, my suspicions are raised about you, as well. What kind of person cuts and pastes a quote (that's what anyone does who is quoting someone else, after all) but then for some reason claims they didn't?

As for my prejudices, I have seen a great deal of deceptive nonsense posted on forums and in YouTube videos over the years. So when someone comes along with more YouTube videos making extravagant claims, I do my homework to see if the person in question has a track record of research, or looks as if he's just out to make a buck or indulge some wacky notion. At the moment, everything points to the latter two.

 

[exchemist]

By the way, I've found out a bit more about Shelley Neese. It seems she's not a journalist at all. So I got that wrong, being misled by the piece she once wrote in 2009 for Jerusalem Post Metro. She is in fact president of a (rather wacko-looking) society of American Zionist Christians: About Our Organization | The Jerusalem Connection Report

So Neese too is far from a disinterested researcher: she has a rather obvious agenda.

For me this settles it. These people are cranks, on a crank mission.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Doing a bit of further digging on Barfield et al, it seems he is sponsored by something calling itself "119 Ministries" which is part of something called the Hebrew Roots movement, a somewhat strange offshoot of Christianity that tries to reincorporate a lot of the Jewish law and tradition back into a form of non-Trinitarian Christianity.

I also see that Barfield's team seems to have encouraged the idea that they have discovered the location of the Ark of the Covenant.

So we seem to be on a sort of "Mysteries of the Ancients" cum "Raiders of the Lost Ark" kick, here. At any rate, these people clearly have a powerful motive for wanting to whip up excitement about treasures of the temple, the Ark etc.

Sometimes it needs an unconventional thinker to break new ground.

For many years it was believed that Mount Sinai was located in the Sinai Desert, despite a clear mismatch between the Biblical description of the Exodus and the location of the supposed site (St Catherine's Monastery). Today, many people believe that a site in Saudi Arabia is far more likely. Much of this shift in thinking has come about as the result of amateur interest and exploration. The academics only appear when a confirmation of the explorer's findings is required.

One of the complaints of trained archaeologists in Israel is that bedouin are making finds and selling their finds on the black market. This is not a charge that can be levelled at Jim Barfield, who has followed protocol without drawing great attention to himself.

The Copper Scrolls are not in question here. They exist, were hidden, and contain what appear to be instructions intended to guide people to gold and silver from the temple. The fact that a man, interested in the Bible and the ancient temple, should want to decipher these instructions should not be a great surprise.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No it wasn't. The passage you cut and pasted it from was this one, containing the exact words, including the spelling mistake: About Shelley Neese | Author of "The Copper Scroll Project"

But I see you did correct "dove" into "dived.

So now, I have to say, my suspicions are raised about you, as well. What kind of person cuts and pastes a quote (that's what anyone does who is quoting someone else, after all) but then for some reason claims they didn't?

As for my prejudices, I have seen a great deal of deceptive nonsense posted on forums and in YouTube videos over the years. So when someone comes along with more YouTube videos making extravagant claims, I do my homework to see if the person in question has a track record of research, or looks as if he's just out to make a buck or indulge some wacky notion. At the moment, everything points to the latter two.

I was unable to 'cut and paste' the quote, so I scribbled it down and then typed it in here. There's no need for a conspiracy theory!

 

[exchemist]

Sometimes it needs an unconventional thinker to break new ground.

For many years it was believed that Mount Sinai was located in the Sinai Desert, despite a clear mismatch between the Biblical description of the Exodus and the location of the supposed site (St Catherine's Monastery). Today, many people believe that a site in Saudi Arabia is far more likely. Much of this shift in thinking has come about as the result of amateur interest and exploration. The academics only appear when a confirmation of the explorer's findings is required.

One of the complaints of trained archaeologists in Israel is that bedouin are making finds and selling their finds on the black market. This is not a charge that can be levelled at Jim Barfield, who has followed protocol without drawing great attention to himself.

The Copper Scrolls are not in question here. They exist, were hidden, and contain what appear to be instructions intended to guide people to gold and silver from the temple. The fact that a man, interested in the Bible and the ancient temple, should want to decipher these instructions should not be a great surprise.

Except that they had already been deciphered years ago.

 

[Redemptionsong]

By the way, I've found out a bit more about Shelley Neese. It seems she's not a journalist at all. So I got that wrong, being misled by the piece she once wrote in 2009 for Jerusalem Post Metro. She is in fact president of a (rather wacko-looking) society of American Zionist Christians: About Our Organization | The Jerusalem Connection Report

So Neese too is far from a disinterested researcher: she has a rather obvious agenda.

For me this settles it. These people are cranks, on a crank mission.

We all have an agenda of some kind. You included. Are we all 'cranks'?

Except that they had already been deciphered years ago.

Unlike the complete book of Isaiah, found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Copper Scroll seems to have been written with the intention of pointing people to a gold and silver cache. The question remains, What happened to the temple furniture and vessels from Herod's temple? [Which would not have included the Ark of the Covenant, which disappeared at the time of Jeremiah]

 

[1213]

Do you think the scriptures indicate that a temple will be rebuilt?

I believe it will be rebuilt, because:

A reed like a rod was given to me. Someone said, "Rise, and measure God's temple, and the altar, and those who worship in it. Leave out the court which is outside of the temple, and don't measure it, for it has been given to the gentiles. They will tread the holy city under foot for forty-two months.
Rev. 11:1-2

But, that may mean something else also.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not just Jim Barfield, whoever he may be. This scroll was discovered and deciphered in the 1950s, so there is nothing really new here: Copper Scroll

Barfield, however, seems to be some sort of crank: the insanity continues: jim barfield and the copper scroll project get another jpost article

He is not an archaeologist, but a retired assistant fire marshal, from somewhere in the American Midwest, apparently. I would take what he says about this scroll with a pinch of salt.

I get a warning when I click on your link, but here is another source written by a PhD archaeologist that refutes Barfield:

Pseudo-Science and Sensationalist Archaeology: An Exposé of Jimmy Barfield and the Copper Scroll Project | Bible Interp

Barfield sounds like another Ron Wyatt to me.

 

[exchemist]

I get a warning when I click on your link, but here is another source written by a PhD archaeologist that refutes Barfield:

Pseudo-Science and Sensationalist Archaeology: An Exposé of Jimmy Barfield and the Copper Scroll Project | Bible Interp

Barfield sounds like another Ron Wyatt to me.

That article confirms everything I suspected about Barfield and more. He may even be a charlatan as well as a crank.

 

[exchemist]

We all have an agenda of some kind. You included. Are we all 'cranks'?



Unlike the complete book of Isaiah, found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Copper Scroll seems to have been written with the intention of pointing people to a gold and silver cache. The question remains, What happened to the temple furniture and vessels from Herod's temple? [Which would not have included the Ark of the Covenant, which disappeared at the time of Jeremiah]

My agenda in this thread is to call out codswallop masquerading as fact. I consider that a service to society.

What's yours?