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The core of religious faith
- Thread starter dgray
- Start date
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by "core"? Do you mean source/cause? Main/most important idea/set of ideas? And how is religious faith to be distinguished from areligious faith?
The term "core" is from the passage by Shoghi Effendi, and I interpret it to mean the most essential part.
According to dictionary.com, areligious means "unconcerned with or indifferent to religious matters", and religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe." I interpret "religious faith" to be confidence or trust in a set of beliefs regarding God. From the definition of "areligious", I understand "areligious faith" to be confidence that the cause or purpose of the universe is not worthy of concern.
According to dictionary.com, areligious means "unconcerned with or indifferent to religious matters", and religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe." I interpret "religious faith" to be confidence or trust in a set of beliefs regarding God. From the definition of "areligious", I understand "areligious faith" to be confidence that the cause or purpose of the universe is not worthy of concern.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Well then, the "core" differs depending on the religion. For historically ancient Christian answers, you might look up the Catholic or Orthodox catechisms online. For more recent Christian answers, you might look up the Westminster Confession or those confessions drawn up after the Protestant Schism.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but for me, it's personal experience.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but what sort of personal experience? How is it distinguished from the sort of experience whereby I form the belief that I'm being appeared to redly or the sort of experience whereby I form the belief that modus ponens is necessarily true or that my mother died in 2000? I take it that experience of some kind forms the basis for all these beliefs. What sort of experience gives rise to the sort of religious belief that you have, for example?
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
cardero
Citizen Mod
I would think that Truth is what unites man with GOD. Faith between man and GOD would leave both entities expectant, hopeful and ignorant of each other.
Simply "a union with God". That is what is most important.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
It most simply boils down to fear, in one form or another.
Rubbish.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Irony.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Love...
“All life is just a progression toward, and then a recession from, one phrase — I love you.” –F Scott Fitzgerald
“Do unto others as you would wish them do unto you.”
“…a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
“What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary.” Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
“Say unto them: Renounce murmuring, that ye may be worthy of the mysteries of the Light and be saved from the fire of the dog-faced [one].
“Say unto them: Renounce eavesdropping [?], that ye may [be worthy of the mysteries of the Light] and be saved from the judgments of the dog-faced [one].
–pistis sophia book 3
So the golden rule. The golden rule states one should act with thought, with care, with love towards each other. What does this mean? On a practical level it just means be nice, a good person. Acting like this obviously would make a much nicer place for all human beings, animals and non corporeal beings. If no one was selfish, if we shared instead of took. Simply respected one another.
On a deeper level we know the Golden rule exists as a simple but profound recognition that we are all of one being, one mind, one consciousness…all IS God. YHVH all that was, is and will be…By using the Golden rule we are recognizing the divinity in all things.
When my Beloved appears,
With what eye do I see Him?
With His eye, not with mine,
For none sees Him except Himself.
— ibn al-`Arabi
………………..
Love, the only way to truly know something is to become it.
is the cup half full of water?
is the cup half empty of water?
is there even a cup, water or me?
…………………………………………….
Is a cup full?
Is a cup empty?
These are questions of duality, of mundane consciousness. Dialetic as the rosicrucian intro booklet calls it.
Some are quick to jump on the band wagon and state dualism is wrong. Well no it isn’t. Its just a matter of perspective and perception. Like seeing a piece of paper….with your eyes or with a microscope. On the surface we see paper, if we look deeper we see a whole new perspective.
If we are happy with mundane surface knowledge, episteme, bus time table knowledge then what is wrong? When we are ready to switch on our microscopes we can go deeper toward gnosis. Thus the golden rule…love one another..be respectful of one another. On the surface is a commandment to be “good.” But if we look deeper it is a fundamental command toward mystical union, theosis. Lover and Loved become ONE. So there is no cup or water, it is not empty because it no longer exists.
To explain further:
Some speak of the world as being false or broken. Our goal is to fix things. We are asleep and must awaken. In some forms of kabbalah we find the idea of giving and receiving. The word Kabbalah itself means “to receive.” We find that in Kabbalah all reality is made of vessels and light. God gives light and the vessels receive the light. Then there is a complex system of how they get over the problem of light only giving and vessels only receiving. But there we see LOVE, the golden rule. GIVE and RECEIVE. There is no taking….Taking is ultimately selfish and against the golden rule. One is seeking power, when really if one follows the golden rule one should seek to be in harmony. Harmony, love, compassion.
………………………………………
The time of action does not differ at all from my time of prayer; I possess God as tranquilly in the bustle of my kitchen –where sometimes several people are asking me different things at one time—as if I was on my knees before the blessed sacrament…It is not necessary to have great things to do. I turn my little omelet in the pan for the love of God; when it is finished, if I have nothing to do, I prostrate myself on the ground and adore my God, who gave me the grace to make it, after which I rise, more content than a King. When I cannot do anything else, it is enough for me to have lifted a straw from the earth for the love of God.
–Brother Lawrence
This cycle of give and receive allows for balance and to see that there is no glass, it is not empty or full. We gain a deeper understanding of what is. It is not so much that seeing the glass or the water was wrong it is more our understanding was different. All concepts by their very nature are wrong. Thus seeing the glass or realizing there is no glass are all the same. A piece of paper is a piece of paper whether we use our eyes or a microscope. It is too easily to take scripture, dogma, mysticism, experiences and state “what I see at a deeper level is correct, thus at a mundane level it is false.” This is simply not true..an apple is an apple…
Thus the golden rule as a nice way to get society to work..is not wrong; it is a highly valid expression of a way we as beings should interact with each other and everything! (The world is teeming with life, visible and invisible). At a deeper level we can see the golden rule breaks through all such ideas of duality, transcending our previous perception. Love, love of the divine…all are one.
But concepts are all false. All concepts are merely ways to help us reach a deeper understanding. What is the ultimate understanding? To BE what we seek to understand. Not to be like it, but to BE IT. To be GOD. Not to be a God but to BE GOD. Only then will we see that duality, non duality, the paper,the microscope, the cup and the water do not exist
All veils come from ignorance;
when ignorance has passed away all the veils vanish and this life,
by means of gnosis, becomes one with the life to come.
–al-Hujwir
So what does the Golden rule teach us? the ultimate truth,,,,LOVE…
by doing unto others we are doing unto the divine…we are becoming what we already are..learning that there is no glass, no water, no paper…there just is….
all that was, is and will be
People cannot see anything that really is without becoming like it. It is not so with people in the world, who see the sun without becoming the sun and see the sky and the earth and everything else without becoming them.
Rather, in the realm of truth,
you have seen things there, and have become those things,
you have seen the Spirit and become the Spirit,
you have seen Christ and become Christ,
you have seen the Father and will become Father.
Here in the world you see everything but do not see yourself, but there in that realm you see yourself, and you will become what you see.
–Gospel of Philip (Marvin Meyer translation)
“All life is just a progression toward, and then a recession from, one phrase — I love you.” –F Scott Fitzgerald
“Do unto others as you would wish them do unto you.”
“…a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
- Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” Udana-Varga 5:18
“What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary.” Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
“Say unto them: Renounce murmuring, that ye may be worthy of the mysteries of the Light and be saved from the fire of the dog-faced [one].
“Say unto them: Renounce eavesdropping [?], that ye may [be worthy of the mysteries of the Light] and be saved from the judgments of the dog-faced [one].
–pistis sophia book 3
So the golden rule. The golden rule states one should act with thought, with care, with love towards each other. What does this mean? On a practical level it just means be nice, a good person. Acting like this obviously would make a much nicer place for all human beings, animals and non corporeal beings. If no one was selfish, if we shared instead of took. Simply respected one another.
On a deeper level we know the Golden rule exists as a simple but profound recognition that we are all of one being, one mind, one consciousness…all IS God. YHVH all that was, is and will be…By using the Golden rule we are recognizing the divinity in all things.
When my Beloved appears,
With what eye do I see Him?
With His eye, not with mine,
For none sees Him except Himself.
— ibn al-`Arabi
………………..
Love, the only way to truly know something is to become it.
is the cup half full of water?
is the cup half empty of water?
is there even a cup, water or me?
…………………………………………….
Is a cup full?
Is a cup empty?
These are questions of duality, of mundane consciousness. Dialetic as the rosicrucian intro booklet calls it.
Some are quick to jump on the band wagon and state dualism is wrong. Well no it isn’t. Its just a matter of perspective and perception. Like seeing a piece of paper….with your eyes or with a microscope. On the surface we see paper, if we look deeper we see a whole new perspective.
If we are happy with mundane surface knowledge, episteme, bus time table knowledge then what is wrong? When we are ready to switch on our microscopes we can go deeper toward gnosis. Thus the golden rule…love one another..be respectful of one another. On the surface is a commandment to be “good.” But if we look deeper it is a fundamental command toward mystical union, theosis. Lover and Loved become ONE. So there is no cup or water, it is not empty because it no longer exists.
To explain further:
Some speak of the world as being false or broken. Our goal is to fix things. We are asleep and must awaken. In some forms of kabbalah we find the idea of giving and receiving. The word Kabbalah itself means “to receive.” We find that in Kabbalah all reality is made of vessels and light. God gives light and the vessels receive the light. Then there is a complex system of how they get over the problem of light only giving and vessels only receiving. But there we see LOVE, the golden rule. GIVE and RECEIVE. There is no taking….Taking is ultimately selfish and against the golden rule. One is seeking power, when really if one follows the golden rule one should seek to be in harmony. Harmony, love, compassion.
………………………………………
The time of action does not differ at all from my time of prayer; I possess God as tranquilly in the bustle of my kitchen –where sometimes several people are asking me different things at one time—as if I was on my knees before the blessed sacrament…It is not necessary to have great things to do. I turn my little omelet in the pan for the love of God; when it is finished, if I have nothing to do, I prostrate myself on the ground and adore my God, who gave me the grace to make it, after which I rise, more content than a King. When I cannot do anything else, it is enough for me to have lifted a straw from the earth for the love of God.
–Brother Lawrence
This cycle of give and receive allows for balance and to see that there is no glass, it is not empty or full. We gain a deeper understanding of what is. It is not so much that seeing the glass or the water was wrong it is more our understanding was different. All concepts by their very nature are wrong. Thus seeing the glass or realizing there is no glass are all the same. A piece of paper is a piece of paper whether we use our eyes or a microscope. It is too easily to take scripture, dogma, mysticism, experiences and state “what I see at a deeper level is correct, thus at a mundane level it is false.” This is simply not true..an apple is an apple…
Thus the golden rule as a nice way to get society to work..is not wrong; it is a highly valid expression of a way we as beings should interact with each other and everything! (The world is teeming with life, visible and invisible). At a deeper level we can see the golden rule breaks through all such ideas of duality, transcending our previous perception. Love, love of the divine…all are one.
But concepts are all false. All concepts are merely ways to help us reach a deeper understanding. What is the ultimate understanding? To BE what we seek to understand. Not to be like it, but to BE IT. To be GOD. Not to be a God but to BE GOD. Only then will we see that duality, non duality, the paper,the microscope, the cup and the water do not exist
All veils come from ignorance;
when ignorance has passed away all the veils vanish and this life,
by means of gnosis, becomes one with the life to come.
–al-Hujwir
So what does the Golden rule teach us? the ultimate truth,,,,LOVE…
by doing unto others we are doing unto the divine…we are becoming what we already are..learning that there is no glass, no water, no paper…there just is….
all that was, is and will be
People cannot see anything that really is without becoming like it. It is not so with people in the world, who see the sun without becoming the sun and see the sky and the earth and everything else without becoming them.
Rather, in the realm of truth,
you have seen things there, and have become those things,
you have seen the Spirit and become the Spirit,
you have seen Christ and become Christ,
you have seen the Father and will become Father.
Here in the world you see everything but do not see yourself, but there in that realm you see yourself, and you will become what you see.
–Gospel of Philip (Marvin Meyer translation)
Last edited:
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
What is the essential part of religious faith? That depends on the religion and the amount of faith. I would say that for me it is recognition of the Oneness of God.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
You are limiting your concept of religion to just theistic religion, and you seem predisposed to view it as just monotheistic religion. That is probably because your direct experience of religion has been a monotheistic tradition. So God is a necessary part of your "core", but not everyone's. In general, religion tends to prescribe a doctrine of behavior that is based on belief in supernatural forces (for example, a spiritual plane of existence) that human beings can interact with--either to influence or be influenced by. Religious doctrines prescribe behaviors related to that interaction.
I think that it is necessary to distinguish between religion and belief in magic or occult forces. Religions are more concerned with right and wrong behavior towards other human beings. Belief in the occult does not usually prescribe moral conduct. So religions play a very special role in culture and society.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
spoken like one who is from the outside looking in
Your assessment is valid, but it is a superficial gloss....
Peel away all of your assertions there is a core universality....
at least if you beleive in the perrenial tradition...
lol, I didn't even think of it that way. But I wasn't speaking of the individual being the core in the sense that one is their own god or other self-centered ideas that satanism hold. I was thinking that the religion or spiritual path one adheres to is shaped, consciously or subconsciously, by the individual. Even those who follow the same religion/denomination/path will follow it in a different way from others who share it with him or her. And religions and spiritual paths focus a great deal on how the individual acts and interacts with the world around them. So it seems to me that the core of any religious belief or spiritual path, the main focus that they hold, is the individual.
