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The Creationistic Method and Why It Is Fraudulent

Super Universe

Defender of God
Fair enough. The Webb telescope will give a lot more *detail*, but it won't be able to see any farther. The reason is simple: light has not had time to arrive from any farther.

Light has not had any more time to travel farther than 13.8 billion years? It has. It's here now.

I don't know what the full resolution ability will be for the James Webb but the universe is about 250 billion years old so there's a whole lot more out there.

And, it will take many years and probably a series of James Webb telescopes, or larger ones, but you might even be able to determine that we are near the edge of a giant spiral arm.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Sorry to butt in, @Super Universe but... :confused:

I don't know what the full resolution ability will be for the James Webb but the universe is about 250 billion years old so there's a whole lot more out there.
For us lesser mortals where are you getting the 250 billion years old idea?

And, it will take many years and probably a series of James Webb telescopes, or larger ones, but you might even be able to determine that we are near the edge of a giant spiral arm.
Maybe I'm just being silly, but I remember learning about this when I was in grade school 50 years ago. This was determined quite awhile ago. Are you meaning something else?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Sorry to butt in, @Super Universe but... :confused:

For us lesser mortals where are you getting the 250 billion years old idea?


Maybe I'm just being silly, but I remember learning about this when I was in grade school 50 years ago. This was determined quite awhile ago. Are you meaning something else?

The 250 billion year old universe idea is just something I picked up somewhere.

You remember learning about us being near the edge of a giant spiral arm in grade school? That's where we are in the Milky Way galaxy. I'm talking about where our galaxy, and every other galaxy we see, is in the super universe. Everything we see, everything we know as the universe is just 1/18th of the real super universe.

All galaxies, are located in a giant spiral disc with bands that move one way and other bands that move in the opposite direction.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Expanding space spreading out galaxies is what causes the cool black body radiation. A low universal temperature is caused by the expansion, the separation of the "hot" galaxies, that is increasing cold space.

But to get a *uniform* temperature requires the temperature in the past to be uniform. And that doesn't happen with distinct, scattered nebula. Yes, the temperature went down, but it stayed uniform to one part in 100,000. Nebula don't do that.

You think the expansion is from the big bang when it's not and we know it's not because the expansion is increasing in speed, not slowing down as you thought.

The cosmological constant (also known as dark energy) doesn't negate the BB scenario.

All points of the universe are points of expansion? So, there was no singularity then, is that where you guys are now? Or, there was but it did not exist in this universe? You guys are really trying hard and in order to make sense of it you just move things out of existence into never neverland.

No, it makes sense. But you have to get away from your 3D intuitions of flat space and start working with 4D curved spacetime.

Here's what I don't understand, you can't accept angels, that's fine, but why do you believe that everything came from one big bang instead of many little big bangs that brought about nebula's? It's too far for you to go, right? You are willing to ditch gravity for one big bang but billions of them is just too much.

It would be a plausible viewpoint *except* that the evidence doesn't support it. The uniformity of the temperature across the sky shows it could NOT have been multiple nebula.

The singularity did not exist in this universe? Fine then, you guys say that because you can't make sense of how it could happen. Just like the COE wasn't a law until it became a law. If it was a law before the big bang then energy could not have been created.[/ are assuming there was a 'before the Big Bang'. And, in the context of GR, that is a flawed assumption. In quantum theories of gravity, it works, but then there is no singularity at all and matter and energy existed throughout time.


I should stop claiming the BB violates gravity? I can't because it does.

Prove it. Use GR and show exactly where the BB scenario violates gravity. Not some vague notions, but actual statements in our best description of gravity. Put up or shut up.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Light has not had any more time to travel farther than 13.8 billion years? It has. It's here now.

I don't know what the full resolution ability will be for the James Webb but the universe is about 250 billion years old so there's a whole lot more out there.

And, it will take many years and probably a series of James Webb telescopes, or larger ones, but you might even be able to determine that we are near the edge of a giant spiral arm.

And if Webb sees nothing past 13.8 billion light years, you will admit this is wrong?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
But to get a *uniform* temperature requires the temperature in the past to be uniform. And that doesn't happen with distinct, scattered nebula. Yes, the temperature went down, but it stayed uniform to one part in 100,000. Nebula don't do that.



The cosmological constant (also known as dark energy) doesn't negate the BB scenario.



No, it makes sense. But you have to get away from your 3D intuitions of flat space and start working with 4D curved spacetime.



It would be a plausible viewpoint *except* that the evidence doesn't support it. The uniformity of the temperature across the sky shows it could NOT have been multiple nebula.

To get a uniform temperature requires the temperature in the past to be uniform across space? There's no way a super hot expanding plasma cooled perfectly the same throughout. The outer edges would cool quicker than the central areas. We don't see that in the background radiation.

The cosmological constant doesn't negate the BB scenario? When science is willing to dump gravity for background radiation then nothing will ever disprove the big bang to you but what you are doing is not science anymore.

Okay, so the newest explanation is that the singularity existed outside of the 3D universe? That is not science.

The uniformity of the background radiation proves the universe was not created by multiple nebula? It does. Space is cold. The expansion of space is the reason for the uniform temperature because the new space is cold. It's not created hot like a plasma and then allowed to cool. It's cold from the beginning and is still cold today.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
And if Webb sees nothing past 13.8 billion light years, you will admit this is wrong?
Yep. I will disagree with it but a bet is a bet so I will admit that I am wrong.

They might go looking for planets before measuring distant galaxies so it might be 3-4 years before we get a result.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The 250 billion year old universe idea is just something I picked up somewhere.
... and it is wrong, age is about 13.82 billion years.
You remember learning about us being near the edge of a giant spiral arm in grade school? That's where we are in the Milky Way galaxy. I'm talking about where our galaxy, and every other galaxy we see, is in the super universe. Everything we see, everything we know as the universe is just 1/18th of the real super universe.
... and that is also wrong.
All galaxies, are located in a giant spiral disc with bands that move one way and other bands that move in the opposite direction.
... and that is also wrong.

Three strikes! Yeeeeeer out!
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
... and it is wrong, age is about 13.82 billion years.
... and that is also wrong.

... and that is also wrong.

Three strikes! Yeeeeeer out!

Isn't it funny that you can only see 13.8 billion years so that's the number you went with for the age of the universe? Oh, that's how science works these days.

Everything we see in the universe is not located in a giant spiral arm? And you would know how?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Isn't it funny that you can only see 13.8 billion years so that's the number you went with for the age of the universe? Oh, that's how science works these days.

Everything we see in the universe is not located in a giant spiral arm? And you would know how?
Would you care to share with us the data and analysis that you used to come to your conclusions?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You can find the Urantia Book online to read or download a copy for free.
I would not waste the bandwidth. It is not an authoritative source, just more circular reasoning ... it's true because it says it's true, even when it is falsified.

Wiki: The Urantia Book includes quite a bit of science woo from the 1930s presented as authoritative fact. Many of these suppositions, which were largely accepted in the 1930s, have since been disproven, which casts doubt on the purported supernatural origin of the Urantia Book and points to a purely human origin. Among other things the book endorses eugenics at one point. Each writing in the book credits one or more supernatural authors, who have names like "Divine Counseler", "Perfector of Wisdom", "Brilliant Evening Star", and "Universal Censor". The actual authorship has been traced to a Seventh Day Adventist splinter group in Chicago, and allegations have also been made that some of the book is plagiarized from earlier writings. Martin Gardner wrote an extensive study of the book, and its quite human, and plagiarized, origin.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
you mean like the big bang that couldn't have happened because gravity would never allow it to happen?

So you want to use the science you like to contradict the science you don't like? It all comes from the same loom.

Or do you mean like this ridiculous Conservation of Energy theory that says that energy cannot be created. How the heck would humans know one way or the other?

We don't know. It is a scientific law based on observation. When somebody violates the law, it will have to be revised or discarded.

What tests prove that energy cannot be created?

No test proves it. Nor is proof required to believe that it might be or is probably correct - only that all observations to date have been consistent with it, that it is falsifiable, and that it has never been falsified. That is the most confirmation any scientific statement can achieve. It is the most that a correct idea can achieve.

You know that the God of the Christian bible does not exist? Oh, a primitive human on the earth knows whether a universal concept is real or not? You don't know because you're not supposed to know.

Actually, I do know that the logically impossible is impossible.

I described God in mutually exclusive terms which is logically impossible? No, I did not. You just did not understand.

I said that the Bible does that. If you are referring to the god of the Christian Bible, then you believe in a god that is said to have mutually exclusive characteristics. No such thing. Name something that both exists and doesn't exist in the same sense of the word at the same time. Name something that is perfect but makes errors and regrets them. Name a married bachelor. Show me a square circle.

An omniscient being with free will? How does all knowing deny God's own free will?

If you know the future with certainty, you cannot change it. Omniscience precludes omnipotence.

If you change it, you were wrong about the future. In this case omnipotence precludes omniscience.

They are mutually incompatible, and assigning them to the same entity is evidence that that entity is a fictitious character crafted carelessly.

A perfect being needing to be worshipped? God does not "need" to be worshipped.

Sure He does. Look at all of the trouble He went to in order to accumulate a group of worshipers. According to Christian doctrine, He created a universe and man for just that purpose. The universe is a stage for auditioning for the part of worshiper.

And those that don't make the cut are discarded into the lake of fire. That's pretty clear description of a need to be worshiped. You can see the same qualities in the current American president, who is a black whole of endless need. He needs to exaggerate the size of the crowds worshiping him. And he had his cabinet assemble [edit: to go around the table and sing his praises, which he had filmed and released to the news].

Many Christians tell me that life is meaningless without such a belief. Their words imply that since I lack it - that since all I expect to do is live the life that unfolds between birth and death - my life is without any purpose.

Obviously, even if I believed in this god, I would choose a better afterlife for myself than that - one in which I am considered to have intrinsic value distinct from how I can stroke the ego of another. Seeing me as a means to an egocentric end rather than as a person of intrinsic value is not my definition of a meaningful existence.

God changes His mind? Nope, it's never happened.

I don't know about your God, but the Christian god constantly changes its mind, as when it threw out the disobedient angels or drowned the earth. First, the Jews were the chosen, now it includes the gentiles. The old law was updated with a new covenant.

you're concepts of the universe exhibit the typical human inability to think beyond yourselves

The typical human thinks beyond himself. Inability to do that is what I was criticizing the American president for. It's a pathological state, not a typical one.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The cosmic background radiation proves it.

You mean proves it to you.

Proof is that which convinces. Cosmic background radiation has convinced you that there was no big bang. It has convinced the scientific community of the opposite. Somebody is misinterpreting the observation. Is it the guy with little understanding of mainstream cosmology who gets his scientific information from The Urantia Book, or the generations of highly educated physicists, astronomers and mathematicians working over a century that have improved the human condition with their ideas.

Have you noticed that none of the ideas you bring here have any practical value. There's not one that can be used to explain, predict or control any aspect of nature - the sine qua non of a wrong idea.

Let me illustrate that with a mundane situation. I want to get to the pier, which I am told is three blocks west and five blocks south of where I am. If I want to get there, and if the directions are correct, they will allow me to predict and control the outcome of my afternoon walk: I will get to the pier. And that is the evidence that the idea was a sound and useful one.

If somebody comes along with false ideas, they will not generate the desired outcome. The idea will be less than useless, since it will end up wating my time and energy.

That is the measure of a correct idea - it's utility.

If that's not what you mean by knowledge, or if that's not your test of what is true, then your ideas are by definition of no value to me, and can be of no practical value to you, either.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Then where?

Where are your sources to this 250 billion years?

You need more than just picking up any number without some evidences to back it up.

No, I don't. The scientists invented the incorrect idea that all matter in the universe came from a big bang even though gravity would have never allowed it to happen. They also think that background radiation proves the big bang but background radiation just proves that space is cold. It's cold because it's always been cold.

They also came up with this Conservation of Energy idea that says that energy can't be created when there is no experiment that supports it. And the only reason they believe the universe is 13.8 billion years old is because that's as far as they can see with current telescopes. They're not going off of experiments and results and tests, they're making things up based upon insufficient evidence.

Oh, and their ideas about time are all screwed up as well.

You guys dug your own hole and crawled into it. No one did it for you.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
I would not waste the bandwidth. It is not an authoritative source, just more circular reasoning ... it's true because it says it's true, even when it is falsified.

Wiki: The Urantia Book includes quite a bit of science woo from the 1930s presented as authoritative fact. Many of these suppositions, which were largely accepted in the 1930s, have since been disproven, which casts doubt on the purported supernatural origin of the Urantia Book and points to a purely human origin. Among other things the book endorses eugenics at one point. Each writing in the book credits one or more supernatural authors, who have names like "Divine Counseler", "Perfector of Wisdom", "Brilliant Evening Star", and "Universal Censor". The actual authorship has been traced to a Seventh Day Adventist splinter group in Chicago, and allegations have also been made that some of the book is plagiarized from earlier writings. Martin Gardner wrote an extensive study of the book, and its quite human, and plagiarized, origin.

The UB endorses eugenics? What's wrong with eugenics? Certain couples who are carriers of genetic diseases generally have tests done to see if their fetus has a terrible disease like Tay Sachs and other diseases. We're already doing everything we can to fight genetic diseases, why not breed out the disease causing genes? If eugenics had been properly performed by the angels on primitive humans we would not have psychopaths or any genetic diseases at all now.

The UB also says that the asian race is superior but does not explain why. The asian race has more population so maybe that's what they meant. I tend to think that they meant that the asian race tends to be meek and not seeking conquest.

The UB also says that the black race is backwards and this offends people. If you study African tribal societies, the women do the cooking, fetch the water, tend the children, plant and raise and harvest the crops, while the men sit under the shade tree all day long and once in a while they go hunting and start wars with neighboring tribes.

If you have any other specific problems with anything the UB says, list them and I will address them. The UB is 1,800 pages long so a Wiki page doesn't explain it all.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
"They made it up" is hardly a compelling argument against the scientific facts.
Oh, scientific facts. Is gravity a scientific fact? If it is then how come it didn't stop the big bang from happening?

Is the Conservation of Energy law that says that energy cannot be created a fact? If it is then how come all the energy in the universe is supposed to have come from a big bang? If energy can't be created then there is no way possible for a big bang to happen.

Also, don't you think it's funny that the telescopes can only see 13.8 billion years and that's what the scientists claim is the age of the universe. It's like saying "Well, that's as far as we can see but that has to be all of it."

You put your trust in people. Never, ever, ever do that.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
So you want to use the science you like to contradict the science you don't like? It all comes from the same loom.



We don't know. It is a scientific law based on observation. When somebody violates the law, it will have to be revised or discarded.



No test proves it. Nor is proof required to believe that it might be or is probably correct - only that all observations to date have been consistent with it, that it is falsifiable, and that it has never been falsified. That is the most confirmation any scientific statement can achieve. It is the most that a correct idea can achieve.



Actually, I do know that the logically impossible is impossible.



I said that the Bible does that. If you are referring to the god of the Christian Bible, then you believe in a god that is said to have mutually exclusive characteristics. No such thing. Name something that both exists and doesn't exist in the same sense of the word at the same time. Name something that is perfect but makes errors and regrets them. Name a married bachelor. Show me a square circle.



If you know the future with certainty, you cannot change it. Omniscience precludes omnipotence.

If you change it, you were wrong about the future. In this case omnipotence precludes omniscience.

They are mutually incompatible, and assigning them to the same entity is evidence that that entity is a fictitious character crafted carelessly.



Sure He does. Look at all of the trouble He went to in order to accumulate a group of worshipers. According to Christian doctrine, He created a universe and man for just that purpose. The universe is a stage for auditioning for the part of worshiper.

And those that don't make the cut are discarded into the lake of fire. That's pretty clear description of a need to be worshiped. You can see the same qualities in the current American president, who is a black whole of endless need. He needs to exaggerate the size of the crowds worshiping him. And he had his cabinet assemble [edit: to go around the table and sing his praises, which he had filmed and released to the news].

Many Christians tell me that life is meaningless without such a belief. Their words imply that since I lack it - that since all I expect to do is live the life that unfolds between birth and death - my life is without any purpose.

Obviously, even if I believed in this god, I would choose a better afterlife for myself than that - one in which I am considered to have intrinsic value distinct from how I can stroke the ego of another. Seeing me as a means to an egocentric end rather than as a person of intrinsic value is not my definition of a meaningful existence.



I don't know about your God, but the Christian god constantly changes its mind, as when it threw out the disobedient angels or drowned the earth. First, the Jews were the chosen, now it includes the gentiles. The old law was updated with a new covenant.



The typical human thinks beyond himself. Inability to do that is what I was criticizing the American president for. It's a pathological state, not a typical one.

So I want to use the science I like to contradict the science I don't like? Yes, that's how it's done. What do you think the scientists use, the bible to contradict scientific theory?

It all comes from the same loom? No, it doesn't. The guys we have today, other than the ones working on string theory, are giving science a bad name. The only evidence for the big bang is the expansion of space but even that doesn't fit because the expansion is increasing speed and the big bang would have had to violate the law of gravity.

Humans don't know whether energy can be created or not? Correct, so then you don't come up with a theory that claims that energy cannot be created and if you do the rest of science is supposed to reject it because of a lack of evidence. And since they believe in the big bang, an event where massive amounts of energy were created, they should have dismissed it outright but they didn't because they think they can make laws and violate them whenever they want. It's a very human thing to do.

Also, the Conservation of Energy law is not based on observation. It's based upon the idea that everything was created in a big bang and since there was only one big bang there cannot be anymore energy being created. It's wrong and there is no evidence to support it yet science accepts it.

No test proves that energy can be created? Oh, you guys know everything now? If energy cannot be created then how did the big bang happen then?

Proof is not needed to believe that something might be or is probably correct? Fine, then never ask for proof from a believer again.

Observations to date have been consistent with the COE? Bull, name one. Are you saying that astronomers have never seen a nebula form from nothing? This area of the universe is full. They don't create new nebula's in an area that is already full. No evidence is not proof especially when you've never been anywhere except the earth.

You know that God is logically impossible? Oh, because you don't understand the universe therefor God must not exist. As if you are so important that God needed your permission. He doesn't.

You said the bible uses terms that are mutually exclusive? The bible does not represent God. It represents primitive human attempts to explain something that was beyond their ability to comprehend. They thought God caused all the natural events when He caused none of them to happen.

Show you a square circle? Where does the bible say that God is a square circle?

If God knows the future with certainty He cannot change it? God will not alter the original timeline. Can He do it? I don't know. Can any other being alter it? No. We can view it but not change anything.

Omniscience precludes omnipotence? No, it doesn't. You atheists try to use logic to disprove God. Nothing can disprove God. It's impossible.

Is God of the bible to some degree fictitious? Yes. God never interferes. Other than create the universe He did not do any of the things the bible claims He did.

God needs to be worshipped? You can have your opinion but you don't know enough to understand. Humans are sometimes taught about universal concepts that they can't do because they are not evolved enough. Praying by a human is like trying to drain the ocean with an eye dropper. Beings in heaven are able to pray effectively which is simply returning love energy to God.

According to the bible this and that? It's 1,600 to 3,000 years old, what do you expect?

Those who don't make the cut are discarded into the lake of fire? John the Baptist had a vision while he was in jail, just before he got his head chopped off. He saw universal meeting halls with beings from all over the universe. He saw gatherings of angels. He saw the trial of Lucifer. John was a primitive human and misunderstood much of what he saw. Humans don't make universal policy.

You would choose a better afterlife? You think you will get your choice, do you? Your ego is absolutely incredible.

The Christian God changes his mind? Study tribal culture, they think that natural events are signs from God.

The Jews were chosen? Talk about something mutually exclusive. The Jews wrote that they were the chosen people. They invented that idea and wrote it into their books. God never chose one people.

The typical human thinks beyond himself? Only to see what other things and other people can do for them.
 
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