The Creationist's Argument and its Greatest Weakness

[Katzpur]

Mark Twain on LDS, if you have not read it,
wait no longer!
http://www.truthandgrace.com/twainbom.htm

I've got to admit that Mark Twain's perspective on Mormonism was pretty entertaining. He was a pretty talented guy.

 

[Audie]

I've got to admit that Mark Twain's perspective on Mormonism was pretty entertaining. He was a pretty talented guy.

One cannot but agree that if "and it came to pass"
were left out, it would shrink to a pamphlet!

 

[SkepticThinker]

I understand, and going with the dictionary definition you are employing, my responses are:

1. God as Creator and God as existing are self-evident to most people except for:

2. Skeptics who are yet to personally encounter God

3. Skeptics who have encountered God but are in denial

Thanks for clarifying.

And so we're right back at the beginning where we started, and we've gotten no where.

Hopefully you will not continue to claim that God is self-evident, given that you can't back it up.

 

[ecco]

I didn't say Matthew memorized the Sermon on the Mount while it was spoken--like me, He was probably processing Christ's words instead of disdaining them.

Are you stating Matthew was present during the Sermon on the Mount?
That's hard to reconcile with the fact that no one really knows who wrote Matthew.

I have no problem with God helping ensure a person's memory.
I also have no problem with different persons, honestly remembering or emphasizing different events--were the four gospels identical or four jurors in a court case--you would cry collusion. You can't have it both ways.

So, for some reason, god helped different people remember things differently. Hmm.

Like other Christians, I see that the four gospels were written for four audiences with four different emphases. There are movies that have been remade three times, and I enjoyed all four viewings.

That's your prerogative. If I see two different versions of the story of Robin Hood I don't care about the differences. However, If I see two documentaries purporting to be the definitive factual story of the life and times of Donald J. Trump, I could not accept major differences between the two versions. I would conclude one of the authors is fabricating his story.

Will you continue to bother me with trivialities or can we just cut to the chase:

1. If I prove Matthew was able to recount the Sermon on the Mount accurately, would you trust Jesus for salvation?

2. What evidence would you need, to prove that Jesus exists as the Savior of the world?

Cutting to the chase...
You cannot prove the existence of your god.
You cannot prove who wrote the Gospel attributed to someone named Matthew.
You cannot prove the existence of Jesus.

All you have is a bunch of stories written 2000-3000 years ago. Stories that have provable factual errors like the Great Flood. Stories that have no outside contemporaneous corroboration.

Any "proofs" you could submit for your Abrahamic God and Jesus would apply equally to a god that created everything Last Thursday.




One of the problems discussing these kinds of things with Christians is that you cannot agree even amongst yourselves.

 

[ecco]

Actually, we're trained from about the age of 3 to know that we are children of a loving Father in Heaven whose Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, died so that we might be able to repent of our sins and return to His presence someday.

That's what is called indoctrination. What a horrible thing to do to a child.

but you won't find any that are any more significant than the contradictions you'll find between the various books in the Bible. And like the ones in the first two books of Genesis, they can be easily explained.

They can be easily rationalized by people so inclined.

 

[allfoak]

If any creationist disputes my characterization here and finds it offensive I apologize and invite them to post a reasonable response.

All of us have a higher self commonly known as the Soul.
This Soul, which is our eternal self and is a being of light is a spark of the divine.
Each of our Soul-Selves then create what we all call by our given names [Jim, Jan, Joe, Jane, etc.] and is our temporal self for the purpose of gaining knowledge through experience and thereby expanding ultimately into a great being of light, expanding the universe as well.
We are all within the mind of God. There is nothing at all that exists apart from this.
What we commonly think of as creation being an external event is actually an on going internal event for both us and that which we originated from.
What we see is an holographic projection.
This is true of both the universe and what we would call physical reality.
Creation is not at all what has been taught by the majority for thousands of years. Until now, the truth has been suppressed.

 

[Katzpur]

That's what is called indoctrination. What a horrible thing to do to a child.

Really? I always found it extremely comforting. Never once in my entire childhood was I ever threatened with hellfire nor was I ever told that my Catholic friend, my Jewish friend and my non-religious friend were destined for such a thing. Never once was I told that, from the moment I drew my first breath, I was being held accountable for the supposed sin of someone who lived thousands upon thousands of years ago. Never once was I ever made to feel guilty for questioning something or doubting something I was told in a religious setting. Never once did I ever hesitate to examine what I'd been taught or to look at other perspectives. On the contrary, I was raised to be open-minded, inquisitive and respectful of others. If you think I was raised in a "horrible" way, so be it, but as far as I'm concerned, I couldn't possibly have had a more loving, compassionate exposure to things of a spiritual nature than I did.

They can be easily rationalized by people so inclined.

You don't even have a dog in this fight, ecco. BilliardsBall says Mormon doctrine contradicts the Bible. You don't believe in either, and I doubt you know enough about Mormon doctrine to be able to say whether it contradicts the Bible or not. It's not even a matter of whether Mormon doctrine is true or not. That's another matter entirely. So, what exactly did I "rationalize"? Specifically what is it in the Bible that the Book of Mormon contradicts?

 

[Katzpur]

One cannot but agree that if "and it came to pass"
were left out, it would shrink to a pamphlet!

It certainly would be a lot shorter. But here's something you may find interesting: The Hebrew word "wayehi," which, translated into English is "and it came to pass" was translated that same way 727 times in the Old Testament (i.e. in the KJV). It was often used in this way to tie two events together. "Wayehi" actually appeared in the Hebrew Bible over 1,200 times, but was frequently translated into similar phrases such as "and it happened" or "and it became," which essentially mean the same thing. Had Joseph Smith translated "wayehi" into other phrases as was done in the Bible, there would be roughly 40% fewer cases of "and it came to pass" and it wouldn't be as noticeable as it is with just that one phrase being used repeatedly.

 

[ecco]

Really? I always found it extremely comforting. Never once in my entire childhood was I ever threatened with hellfire nor was I ever told that my Catholic friend, my Jewish friend and my non-religious friend were destined for such a thing. ... If you think I was raised in a "horrible" way, so be it, but as far as I'm concerned, I couldn't possibly have had a more loving, compassionate exposure to things of a spiritual nature than I did.

You were indoctrinated into believing in a god and you were indoctrinated in the specific ways to worship that god long before you had choice in the matter.
That is a horrible thing to do to a child.

You don't even have a dog in this fight, ecco. BilliardsBall says Mormon doctrine contradicts the Bible. You don't believe in either, and I doubt you know enough about Mormon doctrine to be able to say whether it contradicts the Bible or not. It's not even a matter of whether Mormon doctrine is true or not. That's another matter entirely. So, what exactly did I "rationalize"? Specifically what is it in the Bible that the Book of Mormon contradicts?

And like the ones in the first two books of Genesis, they can be easily explained.

They can be easily rationalized by people so inclined.

My comment was about rationalizing bible stories, yours or BilliardBalls', that were contradicted by science eg the Great Flood.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You mostly talked about other things,
like asking why I dont want to discuss
"the resurrection". If you write a competoitive
grant that way, it is deemed unresponsive
and circular filed.

So, while you wrote things, I'd not call it
a response.

But never mind, you are as noted,
into believing the unbelievable so of
course you believe that absurd snake
story. No flaw could be great enough
to raise doubts, is that not so?

No, it is not so. I came to Jesus Christ from a skeptical, rationalist, evolutionist, materialist, subjective truth mindset.

When I hear Bible flaws now (and then) I always do one simple thing I wish you'd do--review the position from both possible sides. It took all of five seconds (if not less) to think of Paul coming off a ship on flotsam to see how a viper could have been nearby. THAT isn't a deal breaker. Deal breakers would logically include virgin births and the resurrection from the dead. Let's focus on the things I find salvific in Christianity--I'm not telling you this FYI but FYS (For Your Soul IMHO).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Mark Twain on LDS, if you have not read it,
wait no longer!
http://www.truthandgrace.com/twainbom.htm

I agree with Master Twain, who was none for being pithy regarding most subjects including religion!

Reading even a few pages of the Book shows contradictions with the scriptures of the Bible IMHO.

Thanks,

 

[BilliardsBall]

You said you were saved, not "saved." What in the world is that supposed to mean?

Actually, we're trained from about the age of 3 to know that we are children of a loving Father in Heaven whose Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, died so that we might be able to repent of our sins and return to His presence someday. The focus of our early religious education is on Him and our relationship with Him, and not on evangelizing the rest of the world. Of course we're taught to identify as Christians. It would make no sense whatsoever for someone who looks to Jesus Christ for salvation to identify as anything else! Yes, Mormons try to convert Evangelicals but Evangelicals try to convert Mormons. Good grief, it works both ways. Why is it okay for you to do but not okay for us to do?

"Some of the Book of Mormon"? That's a little ambiguous. A Hindu could read the first two chapters of Genesis and tell you that he's read some of the Bible and that in just those two chapters there are contradictions. Naturally, you and I believe there is an explanation for the discrepancies, but they're there nevertheless. If you're intent on finding contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, you'll undoubtedly find a few of them, but you won't find any that are any more significant than the contradictions you'll find between the various books in the Bible. And like the ones in the first two books of Genesis, they can be easily explained.

I have none for yours either, and would give you exactly the same advice you gave me. See in you heaven, BilliardsBall.

You put "saved" in quotations, as I understand it, because you would use the term differently than I.

I feel it is okay to proselytize for whatever you wish to if you feel so led (except on this forum where not permitted by agreement) but I'm saved apart from works and was told by Mormon friends I cannot get all the blessings I think I'll get without earning them--which seems contrary to my understanding of the scriptures. For example, read Galatians and tell me whether evangelicals have freedom or Mormons per Galatians.

I can be specific about issues. For example, I'll always remember that when I first read from the Book of Mormon, I started at the book's beginning and in just a few pages saw that:

1. An altar was built AFTER the Temple was completed and in use--totally, utterly forbidden in scripture
2. A brother in disagreement was called to be murdered
3. Etc., etc. Bible contradictions every page or two
4. Recall that I believe in an inerrant Bible and one contradiction would exclude a document as uninspired...

WHY do you have no concern for my soul? Is it because I repudiate works and believe I'm saved by faith in the cross alone? From Romans 4:

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

 

[BilliardsBall]

And so we're right back at the beginning where we started, and we've gotten no where.

Hopefully you will not continue to claim that God is self-evident, given that you can't back it up.

Whoa! Let's get some context, I didn't want to have to say this, but I didn't say God is always self-evident, because skeptics live in denial, not the river in Egypt.

1. God will be self-evident to everyone after death IMHO

2. Your odds of death are 1:1

3. Warning: Objects in mirror are closer than they appear

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you stating Matthew was present during the Sermon on the Mount?
That's hard to reconcile with the fact that no one really knows who wrote Matthew.

So, for some reason, god helped different people remember things differently. Hmm.




That's your prerogative. If I see two different versions of the story of Robin Hood I don't care about the differences. However, If I see two documentaries purporting to be the definitive factual story of the life and times of Donald J. Trump, I could not accept major differences between the two versions. I would conclude one of the authors is fabricating his story.




Cutting to the chase...
You cannot prove the existence of your god.
You cannot prove who wrote the Gospel attributed to someone named Matthew.
You cannot prove the existence of Jesus.

All you have is a bunch of stories written 2000-3000 years ago. Stories that have provable factual errors like the Great Flood. Stories that have no outside contemporaneous corroboration.

Any "proofs" you could submit for your Abrahamic God and Jesus would apply equally to a god that created everything Last Thursday.




One of the problems discussing these kinds of things with Christians is that you cannot agree even amongst yourselves.

I think I "get" what you're trying to say:

1. Only a fool would trust anything in a book they didn't personally experience (don't drink sulfuric acid, brother)
2. The differences in the gospels are so major, they don't disagree (but all four say trust in Jesus or perish, brother)
3. The gospel attributed to Matthew has no value, since no anonymous written book has any value (you know, like when leaders put things out anonymously to avoid persecution, even in modern times)
4. God never would allow two individuals to have different memories of events (even though we can prove that any non-colluding testimony has variants)

 

[Audie]

No, it is not so. I came to Jesus Christ from a skeptical, rationalist, evolutionist, materialist, subjective truth mindset.

When I hear Bible flaws now (and then) I always do one simple thing I wish you'd do--review the position from both possible sides. It took all of five seconds (if not less) to think of Paul coming off a ship on flotsam to see how a viper could have been nearby. THAT isn't a deal breaker. Deal breakers would logically include virgin births and the resurrection from the dead. Let's focus on the things I find salvific in Christianity--I'm not telling you this FYI but FYS (For Your Soul IMHO).

It is so that you were most unresponsive, as noted.
And you still wont deal with it, the string of extraordinarily
improbable dog-ate-homework details. Less than 5 seconds.

Dont risk looking at it in any depth.
Like all these islanders standing in the rain, accurately
identifying a snake such as they'd never even seen
before, as someone thrashes it about.. The snake
behaving in a unnatural way. I particularly like it that
"Paul" could go about gathering
sticks and not even notice one was a snake.

Lets scatter some sticks on the courtroom floor and
put a live snake there too. Let the story teller show
the jury how easy it is to make that mistake.

But never mind, your mind was already made up.
(You'd be terrif on a jury)

Less than five seconds is all the thought I'd expect
you to give it.


And no matter how much you say you used to have
this "evolutionist" pov, however shallow or informed,
you have clearly stated that you are fine with believing the
unbelievable.

 

[Audie]

I agree with Master Twain, who was none for being pithy regarding most subjects including religion!

Reading even a few pages of the Book shows contradictions with the scriptures of the Bible IMHO.

Thanks,

Whether it contradicts the bible is imho and all
among the least of its issues.

 

[SkepticThinker]

How is it I can tell you what I wore and what I did and what I ate and the songs I danced to on my wedding day over 20 years past, and you seem to feel that once one has seen one's best friend resurrected after being crucified, that they wouldn't CONSTANTLY repeat His words and teachings (which Jesus COMMANDED His friends to teach everywhere to everyone) for all those years.

I speak FAR FAR FAR more often about what I know about Jesus than my wedding!

Of course, the problem is you think God cannot help someone's memory, either. If God made the universe in days, do you think He'd really have trouble prompting your memory?

When all else fails, we just resort to magic, I guess.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Whoa! Let's get some context, I didn't want to have to say this, but I didn't say God is always self-evident, because skeptics live in denial, not the river in Egypt.

Then it's not self-evident to anyone but yourself. So in this case, saying this is self-evident is rather pointless if you can't demonstrate it.

1. God will be self-evident to everyone after death IMHO

2. Your odds of death are 1:1

3. Warning: Objects in mirror are closer than they appear

Why do you want to throw more unsubstantiated claims into the mix?

 

[Katzpur]

You were indoctrinated into believing in a god and you were indoctrinated in the specific ways to worship that god long before you had choice in the matter.
That is a horrible thing to do to a child.

That's a pretty extreme position. I tend to have problems with extreme positions, regardless of which end of the spectrum they are. You also seem to have an inordinate degree of contempt for Christians. You know we're far more varied in our beliefs and attitudes than you give us credit for. I genuinely wish you could see that and that you'd at least try not to be so hateful towards us. You might be surprised at the results.

My comment was about rationalizing bible stories, yours or BilliardBalls', that were contradicted by science eg the Great Flood.

That might have been your comment, but it didn't have anything to do with what we were talking about. Oh, and by the way, I don't believe in the "Great Flood" as described in the Bible. I believe there may have been a localized flood but I doubt very much that it was anywhere close to worldwide, and I certainly don't think Noah managed to round up male and female penguins or kangaroos or rattlesnakes for the voyage.

 

[Audie]

All of us have a higher self commonly known as the Soul.
This Soul, which is our eternal self and is a being of light is a spark of the divine.
Each of our Soul-Selves then create what we all call by our given names [Jim, Jan, Joe, Jane, etc.] and is our temporal self for the purpose of gaining knowledge through experience and thereby expanding ultimately into a great being of light, expanding the universe as well.
We are all within the mind of God. There is nothing at all that exists apart from this.
What we commonly think of as creation being an external event is actually an on going internal event for both us and that which we originated from.
What we see is an holographic projection.
This is true of both the universe and what we would call physical reality.
Creation is not at all what has been taught by the majority for thousands of years. Until now, the truth has been suppressed.

Lotta facts not in evidence, bud.

AKA just makin' things up!