The Current Era Compared to the 20th Century

[Debater Slayer]

I have been reading about the Red Terror started by Lenin as well as the Gulag system under Stalin, in addition to the White Terror and Nazi concentration camps. It is almost hard to fathom that humans are capable of such atrocities, let alone over extended periods (e.g., Stalin ruled for nearly three decades, while Nazis ran concentration camps for over a decade).

I know that there are still many atrocities today, but compared to the brutal brands of communism in the 20th century (primarily Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism), the large-scale torture and massacres by Britain and France in their colonies or former colonies (such as during the times of Churchill and Charles de Gaulle), the horrors of Nazi Germany and its allies, and even the Allies' war crimes—among many other examples—the world today seems relatively far more peaceful even if only because such practices are less prevalent.

This is not to downplay the existence of brutal leaders and/or warmongers like Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-un, and George W. Bush in today's world, but it seems that global interconnection and an increasing reliance on technology and trade over military force have made it harder for regimes like Hitler's and Stalin's to exist today and exercise the same degree of brutality as they did in the 20th century. I suspect this is why we see fewer of them and, when they exist, often (but certainly not always) usage of less force than before.

What are your thoughts? Do we live in a relatively better time, or is it the same nastiness under a different banner?

 

[exchemist]

I have been reading about the Red Terror started by Lenin as well as the Gulag system under Stalin, in addition to the White Terror and Nazi concentration camps. It is almost hard to fathom that humans are capable of such atrocities, let alone over extended periods (e.g., Stalin ruled for nearly three decades, while Nazis ran concentration camps for over a decade).

I know that there are still many atrocities today, but compared to the brutal brands of communism in the 20th century (primarily Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism), the large-scale torture and massacres by Britain and France in their colonies or former colonies (such as during the times of Churchill and Charles de Gaulle), the horrors of Nazi Germany and its allies, and even the Allies' war crimes—among many other examples—the world today seems relatively far more peaceful even if only because such practices are less prevalent.

This is not to downplay the existence of brutal leaders and/or warmongers like Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-un, and George W. Bush in today's world, but it seems that global interconnection and an increasing reliance on technology and trade over military force have made it harder for regimes like Hitler's and Stalin's to exist today and exercise the same degree of brutality as they did in the 20th century. I suspect this is why we see fewer of them and, when they exist, often (but certainly not always) usage of less force than before.

What are your thoughts? Do we live in a relatively better time, or is it the same nastiness under a different banner?

Yes, I think it is much harder today for brutal regimes and groups to commit atrocities on the scale of the past without attracting immediate condemnation, due to global communication. I think the much-maligned UN plays a fairly important role, too.

 

[PureX]

The early days of the industrial revolution had caused a lot of people living under it's influence to perceive industrial science as having given men the power of the gods. In their minds, anything and everything was becoming possible through the power of industrialism. It was a time for those who sought and worshipped power and control to rise up and take their due. And morality was an old world form of control, to be ignored and discarded by these new 'super leaders' of the future.

A lot of people were drunk on the illusion of unlimited power that the modern age was inspiring in their imaginations. And they felt it was all there for the taking, for those who were smart enough and strong enough and ruthless enough to reach for it.

 

[Nimos]

What are your thoughts? Do we live in a relatively better time, or is it the same nastiness under a different banner?

There is no doubt that events like concentration camps etc. have a huge impact on people after them, so I think it would be highly unlikely that we would see something similar to that today. However, humans are creative, so there are many ways to do similar things disguised under something else. And in many modern wars, even the current one between Ukraine and Russia they have found mass graves, similar to what happens during other wars.

So in that regard, I don't think we live in better times, the problem is that most of the time these atrocities are first revealed after they occurred or when things have settled down. So whatever is going on now, is most likely, first revealed in 5-10 years and by that, there are new conflicts and the same things taking place in another place.

 

[Stevicus]

What are your thoughts? Do we live in a relatively better time, or is it the same nastiness under a different banner?

Probably relatively better, but only for one reason, which the character of Quark on DS9 expressed rather well: Let me tell you something about humans, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time, and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The nature of people in general nor that of those that have achieved power has changed at all.
However the tools available to them has changed considerably, and not necessarily for the better.

The daily lives of people in China and in America are both largely acceptable to them. They are equally controlled by powerful people and their political systems. Neither can be regarded as free, each are limited and controlled by their respective systems.

It is clear that China is advancing financially, economically, industrially and scientifically at a far faster rate than the USA.. the USA is doing all that it can to slow China's advancement and influence in the world. If it feels that it will take a war to do this, that is what it will do.

However it is inevitable that all nations rise and fall, the USA is in decline, compared to the eastern nations, and of those, China is king.

Russia is already using war to try to regain control of its previous empire. It is using scorched earth policies against both people and infrastructure in total disregard of international standards and the future of those countries.

America has never shown any real concern for those that it has attacked.

This world is not so much changed but is now using different tools.

 

[Rival]

I doubt it, in some ways. We know what's going on and don't stop it, because we prefer to make trade deals. We also pretend that conflicts like WWII were fought in the name of equality and justice when really they were about empire and dominance.

We do nothing about the extermination of the Uighurs, or the situation of homosexuals in places like Chechnya, Iran, etc. We ignore the blight of people in places like KSA and Egypt. Christians are being slaughtered in Nigeria and the US won't even add it to a watch list

 

[shunyadragon]

I have been reading about the Red Terror started by Lenin as well as the Gulag system under Stalin, in addition to the White Terror and Nazi concentration camps. It is almost hard to fathom that humans are capable of such atrocities, let alone over extended periods (e.g., Stalin ruled for nearly three decades, while Nazis ran concentration camps for over a decade).

I know that there are still many atrocities today, but compared to the brutal brands of communism in the 20th century (primarily Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism), the large-scale torture and massacres by Britain and France in their colonies or former colonies (such as during the times of Churchill and Charles de Gaulle), the horrors of Nazi Germany and its allies, and even the Allies' war crimes—among many other examples—the world today seems relatively far more peaceful even if only because such practices are less prevalent.

Interesting thread. I believe change began in the last half of the 19th century where modern knowledge of science began, the Industrial Revolution and globalization began to dominate civilization, In the 20th century we became aware of the unfortunate downside with global warming, overpopulation and growing food crisis, degradation of the environment, and the dark side of the information age became apparent, Unfortunately despite the knowledge available to understand the global nature of the inevitable potential disaster was basically not dealt with, because of the dominance of ancient tribal paradigms such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which cling to ancient tribalism.

An odd factor not fully understood nor predicted in the past was the overload of misinformation in what most thought that advent of the Information Age and increased education and literacy would reduce. The wide spread rejection of science based on religious agendas oddly related to an increase in literacy of the world population to read scriptures plays a role in the conflict between science and religion. The scriptures of ancient religions represent a mine field of radical tribalism.

In the last 20 years or so of the 21st century has brought the dark side of these problems with civilization to the point the impending world disaster is here. The collapse of the environment due to overpopulation and global warming appears immanent.

This is not to downplay the existence of brutal leaders and/or warmongers like Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-un, and George W. Bush in today's world, but it seems that global interconnection and an increasing reliance on technology and trade over military force have made it harder for regimes like Hitler's and Stalin's to exist today and exercise the same degree of brutality as they did in the 20th century. I suspect this is why we see fewer of them and, when they exist, often (but certainly not always) usage of less force than before.

What are your thoughts? Do we live in a relatively better time, or is it the same nastiness under a different banner?

I disagree that there are fewer Hitlers now and in the future, and we are still going to have to deal with the unfortunate side of tribalism of the past based on ancient religions.

The growing isolationism in the USA particularly among conservative Christians (Old world tribalism) and a lack of concern of the plight of others like Ukraine, and believing other problems in the world are their problems is a mirror image of the attitudes before WWI and WWII.

Human nature does not change it just gets amplified by the impact of changes in our world since the late 19th century. and the perpetuation of ancient tribalism.

More to follow . . .

 

[Revoltingest]

It is almost hard to fathom that humans are capable of such atrocities, let alone over extended periods...

I find it hard to believe that we have it so good
right now (at least here). This canna last.
Just as nature abhors a vacuum, humanity
abhors peaceful coexistence.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Probably relatively better, but only for one reason, which the character of Quark on DS9 expressed rather well: Let me tell you something about humans, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time, and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon.

The nature of people in general nor that of those that have achieved power has changed at all.
However the tools available to them has changed considerably, and not necessarily for the better.

The daily lives of people in China and in America are both largely acceptable to them. They are equally controlled by powerful people and their political systems. Neither can be regarded as free, each are limited and controlled by their respective systems.

It is clear that China is advancing financially, economically, industrially and scientifically at a far faster rate than the USA.. the USA is doing all that it can to slow China's advancement and influence in the world. If it feels that it will take a war to do this, that is what it will do.

However it is inevitable that all nations rise and fall, the USA is in decline, compared to the eastern nations, and of those, China is king.

Russia is already using war to try to regain control of its previous empire. It is using scorched earth policies against both people and infrastructure in total disregard of international standards and the future of those countries.

America has never shown any real concern for those that it has attacked.

This world is not so much changed but is now using different tools.

I doubt it, in some ways. We know what's going on and don't stop it, because we prefer to make trade deals. We also pretend that conflicts like WWII were fought in the name of equality and justice when really they were about empire and dominance.

We do nothing about the extermination of the Uighurs, or the situation of homosexuals in places like Chechnya, Iran, etc. We ignore the blight of people in places like KSA and Egypt. Christians are being slaughtered in Nigeria and the US won't even add it to a watch list

To be clear, I'm not saying that any relative improvement in this era is due to any change in human nature. I think human nature remains the same throughout history, and progress only happens in material conditions rather than our inherent traits.

I have no doubt that there are many Hitlers, Stalins, and Churchills who exist today, but they either have to be more restrained than they would have been in previous times or have a smaller chance of reaching power compared to before. It's not that humans are better now; it's just that the conditions around us have, overall, reduced the likelihood of a Stalin or Hitler unilaterally terrorizing an entire state without significant global pushback.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think its pretty much the same. Just the lines shift with different names.

 

[Stevicus]

To be clear, I'm not saying that any relative improvement in this era is due to any change in human nature. I think human nature remains the same throughout history, and progress only happens in material conditions rather than our inherent traits.

I have no doubt that there are many Hitlers, Stalins, and Churchills who exist today, but they either have to be more restrained than they would have been in previous times or have a smaller chance of reaching power compared to before. It's not that humans are better now; it's just that the conditions around us have, overall, reduced the likelihood of a Stalin or Hitler unilaterally terrorizing an entire state without significant global pushback.

I agree, and it's for this very reason that I support political and economic policies which favor bettering the material conditions of the masses. That really should be the top political priority, but it seems that both major parties in the U.S. ostensibly consider other issues of greater concern.

 

[F1fan]

I think the higher standard of living in the First World has helped peace stick post WW2. The rise of Stalin came after the collapse of Russia in 1917, much to do with the war. And Hitler came out of Germany's great depression that was worse than America's. These desperate people were willing to grasp at anything to feel security. Look at Maslow;s hieracry of needs. The more stable a person is in a stable society the more they have to lose with risky decisions. The more desperate a society the more they will risk.

This is one reason why a stable economy is crucial for democracy. When things work there is less motivation to rock the boat. The odd thing is looking at the rise of Trump and MAGA. Largely the right wing was manipulated to feel like they lost something, and the democrats took it. It worked. Did Trump really do anything that made America batter? Not really. he added to the debt and gave the wealthy huge tax cuts. He managed the nation is a period that was globally stable. His downfall came with the pandemic which required serious and sober skill, and Trump failed in most every way. His MAGA collapsed as an empty promise. The result? Democrats did exceptionally well in 2020 and 2022. McCarthy and MAGAs lost badly. The farther right the reublicans, the less attracted the voter. The voters prefer stable and moderate. We will see how wel this works for DeSantis as he goes farther to the extreme.

The examples of Hitler, Stalin, and other dictators is an advantage for liberals, as the right is going farther towards the authoritarian category of leadership, and citizens are wary of that oppressive tendency.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, I think it is much harder today for brutal regimes and groups to commit atrocities on the scale of the past without attracting immediate condemnation, due to global communication. I think the much-maligned UN plays a fairly important role, too.

Good point. I'm reading the book Hitler's Willing Executioners, and it details how many ordinary Germans during the war had a sense of what was happening with the Jews, but did not have confirmation of the "rumors". That is how denial works, lack of access to evidence allows the mind to presume what is least disturbing. With global satelites there is little any nation can get away with. We get to see what Russia has been doing in many Ukraine towns and cities to those citizens: war crimes. This certainly has galvanized the world against Russia more and more.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think its pretty much the same. Just the lines shift with different names.

Aye, we've never had a golden age.

 

[sun rise]

The nature of people in general nor that of those that have achieved power has changed at all.

I've seen many changes for the better in my life. They don't make headlines because the media for the most part ignores quiet positive developments. When I was growing up racism and sexism were considered laudable by most and gays had damn well better stay in the closet or else.

Here's just one site that talks about how things are better now. I don't agree with everything on their list but most of them 40 Ways Things Are Getting Better

 

[PureX]

There is no doubt that events like concentration camps etc. have a huge impact on people after them, so I think it would be highly unlikely that we would see something similar to that today. However, humans are creative, so there are many ways to do similar things disguised under something else. And in many modern wars, even the current one between Ukraine and Russia they have found mass graves, similar to what happens during other wars.

So in that regard, I don't think we live in better times, the problem is that most of the time these atrocities are first revealed after they occurred or when things have settled down. So whatever is going on now, is most likely, first revealed in 5-10 years and by that, there are new conflicts and the same things taking place in another place.

We're able to commit genocide using economics. now. Our whole culture is a giant labor camp run by the rich. And it weeds out the "undesirables" (anyone that doesn't profit the rich to their liking) by barring them from earning a living wage. And by making it illegal to live without money. They need no guns or barbed wire. The camp is global. There is nowhere to escape to.

What? You don't want to man their giant money pump for the rest of your life? Here's a nice pile of garbage and some drugs for you to go away and die on, then.

 

[Audie]

The early days of the industrial revolution had caused a lot of people living under it's influence to perceive industrial science as having given men the power of the gods. In their minds, anything and everything was becoming possible through the power of industrialism. It was a time for those who sought and worshipped power and control to rise up and take their due. And morality was an old world form of control, to be ignored and discarded by these new 'super leaders' of the future.

A lot of people were drunk on the illusion of unlimited power that the modern age was inspiring in their imaginations. And they felt it was all there for the taking, for those who were smart enough and strong enough and ruthless enough to reach for it.

Not everything is about evil greedy capitalists

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I think things are increasingly getting better as generations pass. I believe the upcoming generation may be more eco-friendly

 

[Audie]

We're able to commit genocide using economics. now. Our whole culture is a giant labor camp run by the rich. And it weeds out the "undesirables" (anyone that doesn't profit the rich to their liking) by barring them from earning a living wage. And by making it illegal to live without money. They need no guns or barbed wire. The camp is global. There is nowhere to escape to.

What? You don't want to man their giant money pump for the rest of your life? Here's a nice pile of garbage and some drugs for you to go and die on, then.

We should arrange for you
and my Red Guard uncle to
go set up camp on Hans Island
where you could tell eachother
all about how nasty the best ever
economic is system really is.

Me, I enjoy the (giant) money pump.
A lot. .
You should have thought of trying it.
It has benefits:

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