The dating of Christmas and Theophany

[James the Persian]

Hi all,

I just came across this interesting article (not from an Orthodox source) about the process the Church used in coming to the dates for Christmas and Theophany (usually called Epiphany in the west). I thought it would be interesting to everyone on either side of the 'Is Christmas pagan' debate and seems to be pretty balanced and accurate (though I admit to knowing little about pagan Roman practices as referenced). It's also, of course, pretty topical. I'd like to see what others think of the points raised. You can find the article here:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.10docs/16-10pg12.html

Thanks.

James

 

[michel]

I admire your dedication to your faith, James. Please don't, for a moment, think that I am knocking it.........What I would like to know is why does it matter so much on what day Christ was born ? we celebrate the Queens 'official Birthday' here, knowing full well it isn't her real Birthday...............


I sometimes wonder why scholarly Theologians such as yourself feel the need for such intricate accuracy on details which, at the end of the day, (I would have thought) hardly make a difference to your faith. Don't worry about it though, I dare say it is I who thinking is at fault.

 

[James the Persian]

I admire your dedication to your faith, James. Please don't, for a moment, think that I am knocking it.........What I would like to know is why does it matter so much on what day Christ was born ? we celebrate the Queens 'official Birthday' here, knowing full well it isn't her real Birthday...............


I sometimes wonder why scholarly Theologians such as yourself feel the need for such intricate accuracy on details which, at the end of the day, (I would have thought) hardly make a difference to your faith. Don't worry about it though, I dare say it is I who thinking is at fault.

Firstly, thanks for the compliment, but I am no theologian. Secondly, you mistook the reason for this post. I'm not actually arguing that Christ was actually born on 25th December (in fact, I don't believe that He was, in all likelihood) and nor does the article argue that the date is correct. Personally, it would have absolutely no effect on my faith if He were actually born at a completely different time of year. It is an irrelevance.

What does interest me, however, is that the author was trying to redress the balance against the argument that the date of Christmas was set as it is simply as a way of co-opting a pagan festival. I was already aware that the early Church had attempted to work out when Christ was actually born in this fashion but had never seen an article outlining this. I just wanted to provide people with the counter argument. It is only important to me insofar as it shows that the Church came to the date of Christmas for reasons of Her own and not as the result of the supposedly paganising influence of people such as St. Constantine the Great.

James

 

[michel]

Firstly, thanks for the compliment, but I am no theologian. Secondly, you mistook the reason for this post. I'm not actually arguing that Christ was actually born on 25th December (in fact, I don't believe that He was, in all likelihood) and nor does the article argue that the date is correct. Personally, it would have absolutely no effect on my faith if He were actually born at a completely different time of year. It is an irrelevance.

What does interest me, however, is that the author was trying to redress the balance against the argument that the date of Christmas was set as it is simply as a way of co-opting a pagan festival. I was already aware that the early Church had attempted to work out when Christ was actually born in this fashion but had never seen an article outlining this. I just wanted to provide people with the counter argument. It is only important to me insofar as it shows that the Church came to the date of Christmas for reasons of Her own and not as the result of the supposedly paganising influence of people such as St. Constantine the Great.

James

I did understand the point you were trying to make, but, since you say it, would it have been, in any way 'bad', had Christmas in fact have been dated as the result of the supposedly paganising influence of people such as St. Constantine the Great. ?

What would have been so bad about that ?

 

[James the Persian]

Had Christmas been dated as it was to conicide with a relevant pagan festival, it would not be wrong in any way. That would be the sort of baptising of cultures that has happened many times in Christian history. My only issue with this is distortion of the facts in such a way that is designed to cast aspersions on the Church and Her saints such as Constantine. Constantine did not have, and nor was there, a paganising influence on the Church. The Church has baptised pagan customs, such as the Serbian slava, but there was never a process of pagan corruption of the Church, yet many Protestants believe this and constantly trot out examples like Christmas and Easter as 'proof' of their assertions. It is particularly these sorts of assertions that I find bad and wish to provide a counter argument for. This article is a useful starting point in such discussions and so I wanted to post it here.

James

 

[michel]

Had Christmas been dated as it was to conicide with a relevant pagan festival, it would not be wrong in any way. That would be the sort of baptising of cultures that has happened many times in Christian history. My only issue with this is distortion of the facts in such a way that is designed to cast aspersions on the Church and Her saints such as Constantine. Constantine did not have, and nor was there, a paganising influence on the Church. The Church has baptised pagan customs, such as the Serbian slava, but there was never a process of pagan corruption of the Church, yet many Protestants believe this and constantly trot out examples like Christmas and Easter as 'proof' of their assertions. It is particularly these sorts of assertions that I find bad and wish to provide a counter argument for. This article is a useful starting point in such discussions and so I wanted to post it here.

James

Fair comment; sorry if I have seemed more than usually dense; I was genuinely interested in the motives.

Now you have explained them, I understand your point. Perhaps I ought to go and lie down....I have had rather a lot of pain killers today..........

 

[michel]

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MOVED TO GENERAL RELIGIOUS DEBATES AT THE REQUEST OF JAMES THE PERSIAN
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[Jayhawker Soule]

Those interested might also wish to refer to this article in the Catholic Encyclopaedia.