The degree of symbolism in modern paganism

[Unveiled Artist]

I was thinking I should have posted this here. Im looking for different opinions but not realy a debate.
--
As most of us I realize are, in some ways, influenced by Christian doctrine. For example former christians used to believe the Eucharist is literal body of Christ. (I am an anamist and believe spirits live after their passing; so I believe that the Eucharist is Jesus). The human, flesh and blood, Jesus is actually a spirit or God as well. The Bible itself is inspired not just Christ.

These are literal associations between what is physical, the hosts, human body, a leather book and the spiritual, concecration, Jesus divinity, and the Word.

Q: Do you, as pagans, have more than a symbolic association with the spells you do?

For me, it is not just symbolism it is literal. I believe the earth Is our Mother, not a symbol of her. I believe the rocks have spirits and what other natural object we use does; it isnt symbolic energy that is real only when we visualize it.

That is why I love taking the Eucharist because that literal connection between Christ (dying to self), hosts (food/drink=life), and person who takes the Eucharist makes it more than just concecrated bread and wine.

Qs: As pagans, do we have the same strong connection between the objects we use (say the athame) and our belief? Is it mere symbolism? Where is the line drawn? Or are the objects the spell itself when used correctly?

Its interesting that folk traditions who use their objects do believe that things like wood do have spirits (not symbolic). I was told even wearing a wooden bracelet can bring bad spirits.

Q: How do you see objects you use in ritual and spells in relation to your faith?

 

[Cassandra]

I was thinking I should have posted this here. Im looking for different opinions but not realy a debate.
--
As most of us I realize are, in some ways, influenced by Christian doctrine. For example former christians used to believe the Eucharist is literal body of Christ. (I am an anamist and believe spirits live after their passing; so I believe that the Eucharist is Jesus). The human, flesh and blood, Jesus is actually a spirit or God as well. The Bible itself is inspired not just Christ.

These are literal associations between what is physical, the hosts, human body, a leather book and the spiritual, concecration, Jesus divinity, and the Word.

Q: Do you, as pagans, have more than a symbolic association with the spells you do?

For me, it is not just symbolism it is literal. I believe the earth Is our Mother, not a symbol of her. I believe the rocks have spirits and what other natural object we use does; it isnt symbolic energy that is real only when we visualize it.

That is why I love taking the Eucharist because that literal connection between Christ (dying to self), hosts (food/drink=life), and person who takes the Eucharist makes it more than just concecrated bread and wine.

Qs: As pagans, do we have the same strong connection between the objects we use (say the athame) and our belief? Is it mere symbolism? Where is the line drawn? Or are the objects the spell itself when used correctly?

Its interesting that folk traditions who use their objects do believe that things like wood do have spirits (not symbolic). I was told even wearing a wooden bracelet can bring bad spirits.

Q: How do you see objects you use in ritual and spells in relation to your faith?

Hi Carlita,

The great thing about being a Pagan is that I do not have to believe anything anymore, just the spiritual connection is enough.

So all these questions of yours, who cares?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Okayeee. Spirituality is about everything. What you do, who youre involved with, how you pray, how you connect with the divine in your rituals. It is a life style. I feel objects are important in my faith. They arent just things. Just like the sun and moon arent just things.

If you dont act in your faith, how do you believe? Your comment reminds me of protestants who say they believe but dont show it to their God.

Hi Carlita,

The great thing about being a Pagan is that I do not have to believe anything anymore, just the spiritual connection is enough.

So all these questions of yours, who cares?

If you dont care, why answer? I like to hear conversation for, against it, thoughts, and personal experiences.

 

[Cassandra]

Okayeee. Spirituality is about everything. What you do, who youre involved with, how you pray, how you connect with the divine in your rituals. It is a life style. I feel objects are important in my faith. They arent just things. Just like the sun and moon arent just things.

If you dont act in your faith, how do you believe? Your comment reminds me of protestants who day they believe but dont show it to their God.


If you dont care, why answer? I like to hear conversation for or against it.

Hi Carlita,

Of course, but that is by its very nature personal and private.

We have no moral books that align our actions, beliefs, rituals, prayers. Nor are we under vows of obedience. It is all about personal choice and personal responsibility. That is the difference between Nature religion and the very organized, ritualized, doctrinized, authoritarian monotheistic religions.

A spiritual person does not think in "for or against it" either. That comes with doctrine. Then it becomes the right or wrong, do or die, heaven or hell, believer or unbeliever, the friend or foe we find in the Bible.

Christian faith is a belief (based on Bible), my faith is simply the trust in providence. This trust in Mother Nature (the great provider) existed long before Father Heaven and his imposed order from above came along. Those came with Kings and Priesthood imposing their order. (That is why God is likened with a King all the time in the Bible).

If people here want to share their most private parts, that is their choice. Christians are invited to do that. The so-called "confessions". Ideology systems logically go together with thought policing, trying to find out what people really think and if it is still in line with doctrine.

So sorry it is private

.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Im not asking how you do rituals or anything. Its just a general question that anyone can answer.

Do pagans "in general not You" have a more symbolic associations to the spells they do or is it literal? I dont want to know what you do i spells just a yes or no from your perspective and why in general not from what you personal "do" as a pagan.

How do I believe? Ex. I pray, I talk to family, I do rituals, i believe the literal connection between objects and rituals. Why? Im an animist. I also believe in ancestral veneration. I feel that using objects are sacred and help in the rituals i am doing.

It is "private" as to what rituals I do, how, and what objects I use but not the belief itself.

Youre misunderstanding my question. Its not personal anymore than asking a christian if he believes in predestination, if so, why.

Hi Carlita,

Of course, but that is by its very nature personal and private.

We have no moral books that align our actions, beliefs, rituals, prayers. Nor are we under vows of obedience. It is all about personal choice and personal responsibility. That is the difference between Nature religion and the very organized, ritualized, doctrinized, authoritarian monotheistic religions.

A spiritual person does not think in "for or against it" either. That comes with doctrine. Then it becomes the right or wrong, do or die, heaven or hell, believer or unbeliever, the friend or foe we find in the Bible.

Christian faith is a belief (based on Bible), my faith is simply the trust in providence. This trust in Mother Nature (the great provider) existed long before Father Heaven and his imposed order from above came along. Those came with Kings and Priesthood imposing their order. (That is why God is likened with a King all the time in the Bible).

If people here want to share their most private parts, that is their choice. Christians are invited to do that. The so-called "confessions". Ideology systems logically go together with thought policing, trying to find out what people really think and if it is still in line with doctrine.

So sorry it is private

.

EDIT

Also, I have positive experiences with christianity and how it helped me see who I am as a pagan. The doctrines help structure their faith. I find that important in a pagan journey in that the structure (or BoS maybe?) they use keep them intuned with who or what they believe.

I learned a lot from the devotion christians have. To apply that to my pagan faith is a blessing in itself. Not their teachings but the devotional life.

Catholicism showed me a lot about sacrifice. We practice that as pagans when some of us are initiated into the faith while others make a commitment of devotion to their gods.

If anyone wants to have a faith with no guidence (their own or from nature or the gods etc) thats fine. I find it unproductive. Thats like going to work and saying you have a job without actually doing anything in it whether your own business or not.

I dont want to know what you do. Just thoughts about symbolism and pagan rituals and spells. How people see it. Maybe history about it.

NOTHING personal.

 

[Cassandra]

Im not asking how you do rituals or anything. Its just a general question that anyone can answer.

Do pagans "in general not You" have a more symbolic associations to the spells they do or is it literal? I dont want to know what you do i spells just a yes or no from your perspective and why in general not from what you personal "do" as a pagan.

How do I believe? Ex. I pray, I talk to family, I do rituals, i believe the literal connection between objects and rituals. Why? Im an animist. I also believe in ancestral veneration. I feel that using objects are sacred and help in the rituals i am doing.

It is "private" as to what rituals I do, how, and what objects I use but not the belief itself.

Youre misunderstanding my question. Its not personal anymore than asking a christian if he believes in predestination, if so, why.

Hi Carla,

You do not seem to understand. We do not share these things. How is anyone to know what others think without holding a survey? People can only answer your question from a personal perspective. And that is what you are inviting them to do, by giving one yourself.

I personally can only advice people not to engage in that. There are all kind of predators on the Internet, who seek to bond for all kind of reasons. They should also realize that people can say all kind of things about themselves that not need not be true, inviting others to tell their most private things.

I noticed there are lot of topics here inviting people to talk about themselves, rather than providing information about things that might interest Pagans.

I hope you do not take this wrong, and I am not accusing you of anything, but that is how I feel about it.

 

[Jainarayan]

Q: Do you, as pagans, have more than a symbolic association with the spells you do?
...
Qs: As pagans, do we have the same strong connection between the objects we use (say the athame) and our belief? Is it mere symbolism? Where is the line drawn? Or are the objects the spell itself when used correctly?
...
Q: How do you see objects you use in ritual and spells in relation to your faith?

For me it's both symbolic and literal. As @Cassandra alludes to, I cannot speak for other Pagans and Heathens. Paganism and Heathenism are highly individual, within certain guidelines. When I make a drink or food offering, I'm actually offering it to the Gods, spirits and ancestors. I'm inviting them to come visit, and I hope I am a good host. Other items and actions are probably symbolic. The images and items I have on my altar are reminders: Thor's hammer, a seax (a long heavy dagger), keys for Frigga, a deer antler for Freyr, a small cat ornament for Freyja, and a few others. These are representations of those deities to keep me mindful. I have a small decorative tree that I keep a tiny bowl of water in front of, along with a small picture of the Norns. I change the water in the bowl daily. The water by the tree is me symbolically helping the Norns water Yggdrasil. Do they need my help? Probably not, but it's my little gift to them.

 

[Cassandra]

Also, I have positive experiences with christianity and how it helped me see who I am as a pagan. The doctrines help structure their faith. I find that important in a pagan journey in that the structure (or BoS maybe?) they use keep them intuned with who or what they believe.

I learned a lot from the devotion christians have. To apply that to my pagan faith is a blessing in itself. Not their teachings but the devotional life.

Catholicism showed me a lot about sacrifice. We practice that as pagans when some of us are initiated into the faith while others make a commitment of devotion to their gods.

If anyone wants to have a faith with no guidence (their own or from nature or the gods etc) thats fine. I find it unproductive. Thats like going to work and saying you have a job without actually doing anything in it whether your own business or not.

I dont want to know what you do. Just thoughts about symbolism and pagan rituals and spells. How people see it. Maybe history about it.

NOTHING personal.

Hi Carlita,

No one can question personal experiences, no doubt that is how you feel about it as catholic otherwise you would not be a catholic. And that is perfectly fine with me.

From my perspective however your kind of paganism seems more like a dressed-up catholicism. For instance you talk about sacrifice and commitment and devotion to Gods. That betrays a monotheistic mindset, rather than a Pagan one.

Pagans are not servants of their Gods. Monotheists are. Monotheism is a rather authoritarian system in which people much obey to their church leaders and to their God by following commands. That is why Christians also call themselves soldiers of God. They follow commands. That is why love from God in Abrahamism is defined as "mercy" and love for God as "obedience". That creates discipline and alignment, that is for sure. The Roman value of "Unity makes power".

But Pagans do not see Gods as authority, but simply beings of another kind, immortal but not eternal. They try to build loving mutually beneficial relations with them, like they try to build good relations with the people and other beings around them, that is all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you. I dont share in person. DIR is the only place I can share about my faith without hopefully being put down for what I believe. I understand some privacy as when I talk with Catholic friends of mine. Their faith is compounded by protestants all the time. So, I dont ask them "what did you say in confession?" Thats not my business. At the time I learned about Church teachings, I would ask...what is confession about...how does that relate or differ than talking to God directly....things that people have personal opinions about without stepping into their personal means of worship.

Likewise with paganism. I dont ask a pagan what rituals you do for healing. I ha e healing rituals and I know they are private. Not because I will be rediculed etc over but something between me and the person i may give healing to. I have so many Catholics and protestant fundementalist who live in the same housing I do (owned by the Church) that the only fellowship I have is online.

I find this bond in Deaf communities where shared experiencs good, like drama, the arts, education, and bad, oppression, discrimination, strong and helps people who feel they cant express themselves.

My personal views. Everyone is different. I just wish we can share our differences too and not be afraid, especially online, who may or may not put our beliefs down.

Hi Carla,

You do not seem to understand. We do not share these things. How is anyone to know what others think without holding a survey? People can only answer your question from a personal perspective. And that is what you are inviting them to do, by giving one yourself.

I personally can only advice people not to engage in that. There are all kind of predators on the Internet, who seek to bond for all kind of reasons. They should also realize that people can say all kind of things about themselves that not need not be true, inviting others to tell their most private things.

I noticed there are lot of topics here inviting people to talk about themselves, rather than providing information about things that might interest Pagans.

I hope you do not take this wrong, and I am not accusing you of anything, but that is how I feel about it.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Q: Do you, as pagans, have more than a symbolic association with the spells you do? Q: How do you see objects you use in ritual and spells in relation to your faith?

Like a Hindu or any other ethnic Pagan, I hope that the images on my altar will be used as vehicles by the gods and I treat them accordingly. Not being a Neopagan, I don't do magic, so I can't contribute on that one.

You do not seem to understand. We do not share these things. How is anyone to know what others think without holding a survey? People can only answer your question from a personal perspective. And that is what you are inviting them to do, by giving one yourself.

I personally can only advice people not to engage in that. There are all kind of predators on the Internet, who seek to bond for all kind of reasons. They should also realize that people can say all kind of things about themselves that not need not be true, inviting others to tell their most private things.

If you do not want to share your views or feelings, then why bother to join a forum like this? I notice that you are constantly accusing people of falsity: that's not a healthy attitude, and I think you need to consider why you have it. I find the sort of thread-hijacking you've done here bad netiquette and I think you ought to think about that too.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is beautiful. I was thinking of puting the Orisha Yemaya on my altar, finally. I was thinking of how to communicate with her. Its not like my grandmother with whom I knew. Everything just seems overwhelming. Was it you that asked about puting a statue of a other faith on your altar? Cant remember the thread. If so, how did that work out?

For me it's both symbolic and literal. As @Cassandra alludes to, I cannot speak for other Pagans and Heathens. Paganism and Heathenism are highly individual, within certain guidelines. When I make a drink or food offering, I'm actually offering it to the Gods, spirits and ancestors. I'm inviting them to come visit, and I hope I am a good host. Other items and actions are probably symbolic. The images and items I have on my altar are reminders: Thor's hammer, a seax (a long heavy dagger), keys for Frigga, a deer antler for Freyr, a small cat ornament for Freyja, and a few others. These are representations of those deities to keep me mindful. I have a small decorative tree that I keep a tiny bowl of water in front of, along with a small picture of the Norns. I change the water in the bowl daily. The water by the tree is me symbolically helping the Norns water Yggdrasil. Do they need my help? Probably not, but it's my little gift to them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No one can question personal experiences, no doubt that is how you feel about it as catholic otherwise you would not be a catholic. And that is perfectly fine with me

This whole post is an insult.

Not everyone has grudges on their former faiths. We learn from them. They shape who we are today. Religion is not a hobby. You dont throw one away for another. If you are serious and your faith, it shapes your life. My faith in my ancestors shape mine.

I dont see how any pagan can belittle another person.

Where have I said

From my perspective however your kind of paganism seems more like a dressed-up catholicism. For instance you talk about sacrifice and commitment and devotion to Gods. That betrays a monotheistic mindset, rather than a Pagan one.

To the gods! Where in this we RF that I said I was devoted to the gods?

All pagans have a form of sacrifice. They shed who they were (maybe as former christians?) and become who they are. A lot of pagans have to dechristianize themselves just to be who they are called to be as pagans. A lot of pagan faiths have forms of sacrifice. Thats one of many pagan beliefs that may or may not have been taken by the Church. Roman paganism influenced a lot of faiths. Paganism is diverse and far in between. Ethnic and neo.

I am not monotheist. If your asking about mindset I am pantheist and an animist.

Catholicism states that once you are a Catholic you are always a Catholic. I will always be a part of the Church even though I dont believe in their teachings. I took a vow. I dont want to live it. I left on "good terms" no grudges, no hate. It is what it is.

No need to hate someone who appreciates who she was and who she is now.

 

[Jainarayan]

Was it you that asked about puting a statue of a other faith on your altar? Cant remember the thread. If so, how did that work out?

It was probably me, because I've had that question. It didn't work out trying to blend pantheons. The Norse deities are very unlike other deities. I have statues of Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist deities, but they are kept separate from the Norse deities.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It was probably me, because I've had that question. It didn't work out trying to blend pantheons. The Norse deities are very unlike other deities. I have statues of Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist deities, but they are kept separate from the Norse deities.

That makes sense. I dont know about pantheons...but you can get a gut sense that somethings not right. Eastern deities are cool. Nice everything worked out.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I don't know about pantheons...but you can get a gut sense that somethings not right.

Here's an interesting account of varying attitudes of land spirits to foreign practices and worshipers:
KILLYOUANDEATYOU! Or, A Well-Intentioned Celt's Guide to Non-Celtic Bioregions