The Demise of Religion

[URAVIP2ME]

Fear' of offending? Does a loving child have ' reverential fear ' of displeasing a loving parent ?
We are Not to be frightened of our loving Heavenly Father, but have ' reverential fear ' of displeasing Him.
We all make mistakes, but Jesus' ransom for us fills in the ' gaps ', so to speak ' - 1 John 1:7; Matthew 20:28
You are right Jesus never mentioned ' gays ' but Jesus did Not approve of fornication.
Anyone not following Jesus ' standard of Matthew 19:9; Genesis 2:24 would be fornicating.
So, it is the 'practice' of fornication which was wrong in the eyes of Christ Jesus.[/QUOTE/]
Umm...unless you live in the dark ages dear, people of all faiths have been doing this for ages. What does that have to do with being gay? Particularly since they want to get married and hence, would NOT be fornicating.

Yes, many want to get married, and I would think that some gays want to marry so they would not be considered as fornicators.
The biblical point of view is that scriptural marriage is only between a man and a woman.
Thus, no matter who marries gays still would Not be within the limits or bounds of scriptural marriage of Genesis 2:24.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tell that to the creationists who do believe the world is 6 thousand years old based on the Bible.

Creationists are part of Christendom ( So-called Christian but really in name only )
Jesus said MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false - Matthew chapter 7
How do they reason or conclude the 6,000 year time frame ?
Even God's rest day was still ongoing in Paul's day - Hebrews 4:4-11

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I want to apologize for my post from last night, it was rude and uncalled for. Now, yes, you are correct here of course. But many do believe the world is 6 thousand years old and refuse to acknowledge fossil evidence, etc, stating it as being created by scientists to further an atheistic POV. And many other inconsistencies exist in the Bible to render it not an historical book. That , of course, doesn't diminish its value. Yet, you did not remark on the other points I made Uravip2me. Do you have thoughts on those

You may have to refresh my mind about the other points.
Please, no need to apologize. Basically I try to point out what the Bible is saying within the pages or frame-work of Scripture.

Creationists apparently are also ignoring CMBR ( cosmic microwave background radiation ) dating.
Because of the accuracies of microwaves not only can the earth be dated but so can the universe.
There is nothing in Genesis that is out of harmony with CMBR.

To me, it is not so much inconsistencies as it is we either do Not have all the circumstances or details.
We do have the Bible's on-going theme about Messiah starting with Genesis 3:15, and that the people of the first century - Luke 3:15 - were in ' expectation ' of Messiah arriving at that time frame which is in harmony with Daniel's chapter 9 ' weeks of years ' leading up to the first century.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. Josephus was written well beyond the time of Christ.. roughly 95 CE. Now, there are only 2 references to the man Jesus and further, most scholars agree that this document was altered after its writing to help the advent of Christianity along. IE: the RCC. Only two items of the text are considered authentic, that being the reference of Jesus' brother and the death of John the Baptist. Please remember that I hold a PhD in theology.
2. Yes, the Bible is considered an historical book but one that has passed through so many hands and through so many translations as to be a vague image of what might have been the original. Furthermore, because the original was written in several languages: Aramaic, Ancient Kione Greek, Hebrew, etc, the translations are rough at best. Oft times, the words have no understandable translation. So do we assume that the earth is really 6 thousand years old? Or the other obvious mistakes contained therein?.
3. The only people with a stylus, etc, were the learned. The aristocrats and teachers. Jesus, if he lived, was a blue collar worker and those people did not learn to read.

I'll give answering or at least commenting on the rest a try:

1. Can the scholars prove the document was altered ?
As for the two items mentioned they are in harmony with Scripture.
How could a forger with such a talent as Josephus have such ulterior motives, and even be able to imitate Josephus' writing style ?

2. The ancient manuscripts do support Bible canon. The apocryphal books exclude themselves because they are out of harmony with the established ' 66 ' books of Bible canon. The Bible's internal harmony among its writers can be seen or discovered by the many corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses or passages.

3. In the first century's Gamla synagogues people would have read the Scriptures there. Even today Jewish people are known for their intelligence. Why would intelligence stop for them in the first century ? I once baby sat for a young Jewish boy and he was an amazing whiz at playing chess. One Jewish classmate today is a successful doctor.

A simple framed wooden board coated with smoothed-out bee's wax would have been readily available.
No ' fancy ' stylus needed to write on that waxed surface. Wouldn't any home-made stylus work ?

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Back to the demise of religion, my own withdrawal from organized Christianity stems from a 5 year research of the history of the new testament and of the history of the various denominations, and then a study of worldwide religions in general. I was appalled by the outright lies that various churches tell in order to further their own agenda. Christians, I found, did not follow the teachings of Jesus, but of "commentators" who came later claiming knowlege of those who knew Jesus, or claimed to know him. Thomas Jefferson called Paul, "the first great corrupter of the teachings of Jesus". Constantine hijacked Christianity, at the bequest of his mother, and used it to further his interests and subdue the masses. Christmas and Easter are reformed pagan celebrations. The cross was declared the symbol of Christianity by Constantine, who himself was a pagan believer in other Gods. The Holy Trinity did not exist in early Christianity. (It's existence was voted on by men later) The new testament itself did not exist in its present form until "groups of men" gathered together to determine what books would be included and what would not be. (Mostly decided by the corrupt "Christian historian" Eusebius). God had nothing to do with it. The Gospels could not have been written by the 4 authors that Christians claim wrote them. Nor do any of the 4 canonical gospels claim to be written by the authors Christians claim to have written them. They are all anonymously written. The first Christian new testament belonged to the Church of Marcion. There was no Jesus Christ, only Isu Chrestus. The one fact that can not be overlooked is that "Christians" ignor the most important teachings of Jesus, and defend them by quoting someone other than Jesus. Christianity melts down in the face of historical accuracy. I'm sure that JoStories will correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[JoStories]

I'll give answering or at least commenting on the rest a try:

1. Can the scholars prove the document was altered ?
As for the two items mentioned they are in harmony with Scripture.
How could a forger with such a talent as Josephus have such ulterior motives, and even be able to imitate Josephus' writing style ?

2. The ancient manuscripts do support Bible canon. The apocryphal books exclude themselves because they are out of harmony with the established ' 66 ' books of Bible canon. The Bible's internal harmony among its writers can be seen or discovered by the many corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses or passages.

3. In the first century's Gamla synagogues people would have read the Scriptures there. Even today Jewish people are known for their intelligence. Why would intelligence stop for them in the first century ? I once baby sat for a young Jewish boy and he was an amazing whiz at playing chess. One Jewish classmate today is a successful doctor.

A simple framed wooden board coated with smoothed-out bee's wax would have been readily available.
No ' fancy ' stylus needed to write on that waxed surface. Wouldn't any home-made stylus work ?

1. Of course a forger can imitate the style of another. Its been done by lots of people. Ask yourself this. In the first three gospels, when Christ was interred, it states he was wrapped in 'cloth', singular. In John, it states 'cloths', plural. If the Bible is truly historical and without error, why the disagreement here?
2. The extant books are actually, IMO, much more in keeping with what Christ taught. Particularly Mary Magdalene, Thomas, and several others. And again, this harmony you speak of is not harmonious when considering errors such as I mentioned in the above contraction. Flavius, Josephus and Tacitus have been poured over by scholars for ages and while some does agree with your Bible, some does not.
3. There is no proof at all that Christ could read or write. None. If you have some, outside the Bible, I would love to hear of it.

 

[JoStories]

You may have to refresh my mind about the other points.
Please, no need to apologize. Basically I try to point out what the Bible is saying within the pages or frame-work of Scripture.

Creationists apparently are also ignoring CMBR ( cosmic microwave background radiation ) dating.
Because of the accuracies of microwaves not only can the earth be dated but so can the universe.
There is nothing in Genesis that is out of harmony with CMBR.

To me, it is not so much inconsistencies as it is we either do Not have all the circumstances or details.
We do have the Bible's on-going theme about Messiah starting with Genesis 3:15, and that the people of the first century - Luke 3:15 - were in ' expectation ' of Messiah arriving at that time frame which is in harmony with Daniel's chapter 9 ' weeks of years ' leading up to the first century.

The messiah, using the books you use here, is not the messiah because the Jewish community does not acknowledge him because he does not live up to the criteria that is written. For example, Christ did not come from the house of David. He did not rebuild the temple, etc. You believe he does fit those criteria but if he truly did, would not the Jews be now Christians, yet they are not. They await.

 

[Shad]

Thank you for your question.

As far as carpenters not taught to read, there would be No way of doing carpentry without the use of measurements.
Notice that the man of Luke 1:63 used a writing table or tablet. Those 1st-century tablets were made of wood coated with a smooth bee's wax surface ( kind of like an early etch-a-sketch) and written on with a writing stylus.

Please notice Luke 2:42-52. Jesus was just 12 years old when Jesus was holding an intelligent conversation with the spiritually older men who were amazed or astounded at his understanding and his answers to their biblical questions.
That continued into his adulthood according to Matthew 7:28; Mark 1:22; John 7:15

Also, what else shows us Jesus knew the old Hebrew Scriptures well is by Jesus often prefacing his statements with the words, " It is written ". For example see: Luke 4:4; Luke 4:8; Luke 4:10; Luke 4:15-20

Carpentry used tools which required no reading skills. If one tool is a foot long all a person needs to know is that that tool is a foot long, they do not need to be able to read anything on the level of being fully literate. It used an apprenticeship based education not a class room education. I do not need to be able to read to know the purpose of a meter stick, a phillips head screwdriver, etc to use either properly. Professionals that would head a project could be literate but there is no evidence that Jesus was such a person nor are there any construction projects accredited to him to prove this. You argument is anachronistic as reading and writing is required now. I would also point out that masonry didn't required a literacy yet they constructed many of the Cathedrals across Europe which are far more impressive than the the complete lack of evidence of any piece of carpentry made by Jesus . This does not mean either job needs to be able to read Homer, Torah, etc, just know what their tools mean and are used for. Luke 1:63 is about John not a carpenter so this argument has no merit. Luke 2:42-52, Matthew 7:28; Mark 1:22; John 7:15 is a vocal conversation not a text based dialogue thus the argument has no merit. John 7:16 says directly Jesus' knowledge is from God thus is not evidence of a normal education nor that he know how to read or write, Jews taught the Torah as part of it's education system vocally anyways. Read your own cited verses as they contradict your claims.

 

[Shad]

2. Yes, the Bible is considered an historical book but one that has passed through so many hands and through so many translations as to be a vague image of what might have been the original. Furthermore, because the original was written in several languages: Aramaic, Ancient Kione Greek, Hebrew, etc, the translations are rough at best. Oft times, the words have no understandable translation. So do we assume that the earth is really 6 thousand years old? Or the other obvious mistakes contained therein?.

The Bible is barely even primary evidence for Christianity but only via a religious view. It is secondary evidence for history. Often people confuse primary and secondary evidence.

Primary vs Secondary Sources

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The messiah, using the books you use here, is not the messiah because the Jewish community does not acknowledge him because he does not live up to the criteria that is written. For example, Christ did not come from the house of David. He did not rebuild the temple, etc. You believe he does fit those criteria but if he truly did, would not the Jews be now Christians, yet they are not. They await.

And that whole war thing is obviously still going on, Jesus did not bring all the Jews back home to Israel, and of course Israel wasn't even its own sovereign nation until the 20th century.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. Of course a forger can imitate the style of another. Its been done by lots of people. Ask yourself this. In the first three gospels, when Christ was interred, it states he was wrapped in 'cloth', singular. In John, it states 'cloths', plural. If the Bible is truly historical and without error, why the disagreement here?
2. The extant books are actually, IMO, much more in keeping with what Christ taught. Particularly Mary Magdalene, Thomas, and several others. And again, this harmony you speak of is not harmonious when considering errors such as I mentioned in the above contraction. Flavius, Josephus and Tacitus have been poured over by scholars for ages and while some does agree with your Bible, some does not.
3. There is no proof at all that Christ could read or write. None. If you have some, outside the Bible, I would love to hear of it.

1. In the Greek Interlinear at Matthew 27:59; Mark 15:46and Luke 23:53 in English ' fine linen ' is used.
John was the last to write, so John had access to those earlier three accounts.
Can't being wrapped in ' fine linen ' be considered in the plural ?
So, when John writes bandages - John 19:40 - then couldn't John link fine linen in the plural sense ?
The point still comes across that the body of Jesus was wrapped for burial.

2. Please post some cross-reference verses or passages from the others.

3. Not read or write, but how could Jesus quote the Law according to what is written in Scripture if not being able to read?
Since the gospel writers could read and write then why couldn't Jesus ?
True, Jesus did Not go to schools of higher learning at the feet of scribes.
That is even more reason the Jews were astonished at Jesus' knowledge - John 7:15
Didn't Jesus and others have access to read Scripture publicly at the Gamla synagogues ? - Luke 4:16-21
According to Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:16-17 - God chose who would write down Scripture for us.
There is Nothing known outside of Scripture stating Jesus could read and write.
Nothing written down by Jesus, but didn't the nation of Israel, of which Jesus was a part, itself read and write ? - Deuteronomy 6:6-9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And that whole war thing is obviously still going on, Jesus did not bring all the Jews back home to Israel, and of course Israel wasn't even its own sovereign nation until the 20th century.

Please keep in mind that since Pentecost the ' Israel of God ' is Now spiritual Israel - 1 Peter 2:9 - a spiritual nation made up of spiritual Jews, Not necessarily of the fleshly descent - Romans 2:28-29. Jerusalem 'above' is now mother - Galatians 4:26
Out of the grace of God natural Israel today exists as a national group, but Not as His holy nation.
God's spiritual nation is Not found on any map but is comprised of people living in all earth's nations.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Please keep in mind that since Pentecost the ' Israel of God ' is Now spiritual Israel - 1 Peter 2:9 - a spiritual nation made up of spiritual Jews, Not necessarily of the fleshly descent - Romans 2:28,29. Jerusalem 'above' is now mother - Galatians 4:26

Which means the authors of the OT had to move the goal posts to have that prophecy fulfilled.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

They still move those goal posts today.

 

[JoStories]

The Bible is barely even primary evidence for Christianity but only via a religious view. It is secondary evidence for history. Often people confuse primary and secondary evidence.

Primary vs Secondary Sources

I do thank you but I am aware of these sources and used them in my dissertations in theology.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Carpentry used tools which required no reading skills. If one tool is a foot long all a person needs to know is that that tool is a foot long, they do not need to be able to read anything on the level of being fully literate. It used an apprenticeship based education not a class room education. I do not need to be able to read to know the purpose of a meter stick, a phillips head screwdriver, etc to use either properly. Professionals that would head a project could be literate but there is no evidence that Jesus was such a person nor are there any construction projects accredited to him to prove this. You argument is anachronistic as reading and writing is required now. I would also point out that masonry didn't required a literacy yet they constructed many of the Cathedrals across Europe which are far more impressive than the the complete lack of evidence of any piece of carpentry made by Jesus . This does not mean either job needs to be able to read Homer, Torah, etc, just know what their tools mean and are used for. Luke 1:63 is about John not a carpenter so this argument has no merit. Luke 2:42-52, Matthew 7:28; Mark 1:22; John 7:15 is a vocal conversation not a text based dialogue thus the argument has no merit. John 7:16 says directly Jesus' knowledge is from God thus is not evidence of a normal education nor that he know how to read or write, Jews taught the Torah as part of it's education system vocally anyways. Read your own cited verses as they contradict your claims.

What is contradictory about Luke 4:16 B ?

Zacharias - Luke 1:63 - was a grown man before Jesus was born. Since Zacharias could write why couldn't he teach Jesus to write?

Who wrote for what reason according to Exodus 17:14; John 7:19; John 7:42
What did Jesus teach from but from the old Hebrew Scriptures - John 8:2; John 7:16; John 5:46-47
The written Constitution of the Mosaic Law code was a rule of action. - Psalms 1:2
Deuteronomy 6:6-9; Deuteronomy 17:18-19
God's Word ( Scripture ) was Not written down to be rejected or Not used - 1 Samuel 15:23-24
Jesus was the Abrahamic messenger of that covenant contract - Malachi 3:1; Malachi 4:4

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible is barely even primary evidence for Christianity but only via a religious view. It is secondary evidence for history. Often people confuse primary and secondary evidence.

Is the ' Not rebuilding of the temple after the year 70 ' secondary evidence ?
Didn't Jesus say - Matthew 24:2 - that not a stone of God's temple would be left standing, and that happened in the year 70.
Later, Emperor Julian planned to rebuild the temple.
According to church historians Julian encouraged the Jews to rebuild the temple in the hope of proving Jesus a false prophet.
Those historians debated whether the work was ever started, or if abandoned after starting, but what is certain is that Julian was killed within a couple years after coming to power and his temple project died with him, but Jesus' words remained true.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Which means the authors of the OT had to move the goal posts to have that prophecy fulfilled.

Which goal posts do you have in mind ?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which goal posts do you have in mind ?

Claiming that it isn't a physical state of Israel where the Jews are supposed to be gathered to by the Messiah, but moving them to make it a "spiritual" Israel of Christians.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Claiming that it isn't a physical state of Israel where the Jews are supposed to be gathered to by the Messiah, but moving them to make it a "spiritual" Israel of Christians.

Thanks for your reply.
Would you say Isaiah 11:4-9 includes the whole earth and not just one nation?______
Doesn't Psalms 72:8 also encompass the whole earth and Not just one nation?_____
When Messiah arrived - Daniel 9:24-27 - Law sacrifices would cease, and haven't they ?_______
Aren't the old Hebrew Scriptures leading up to Messiah coming?______
Jesus proved to be the Abrahamic ' messenger of the covenant ' so there would be No further need for dealing with just one nation.
- Malachi 3:1

Anyone can become a follower of Jesus. Jesus went first to the Jews - Luke 4:43 - but later opened up the way for the Samaritans to become followers, and then, starting with gentile Cornelius, opening up the way for the people of the nations to become a follower.
So, not doing away with any physical or fleshly state, but people of any physical or fleshly state can now be a follower because the old constitution of the Mosaic Law was temporary leading up to Messiah - messenger of the covenant.

Also, who is included in God's promise to father Abraham at Genesis 12:3 B and Genesis 22:18 ?