The despised Cross of Christ

[wizanda]

What is wrong if Christians say they died with Christ?

Because it is a 'covenant with death'; God is the lord of the living, not of the dead.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

You've been set up by the Pharisees to fail, that is the snare created by YHVH, to catch out all those who would defile the Law for a price.

Did Jesus commands to baptize in His name?

Simon the stone (petros) told people to baptize in his name, and then the Church has added blatant additions at the end of the gospels.

Yeshua was teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sin; John the Baptist was teaching to baptize.

The made up gospel of John is the one saying Yeshua's disciples were baptizing, they weren't; Mark 6:13 tells us they were anointing, and healing the sick....

This is one of the reasons the church was called Christians (anointed), and not Baptists.

I don’ t think Jesus do not like to have faith in Him.

As Yeshua pointed out, Simon followed the ways of man, more than the ways of God, and was determined to have faith in him... Yeshua rebuked him again here:

Mark 11:21-22 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. (22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Where did you get the notion that the Scriptures aren’t finished? If this is not finished, what is the problem with it?

Because many Christians are jumping to collect a prize, that isn't available, and they're not entitled to....

The Messianic age will be fulfillment of it, the removal of the mother of all harlots (Christianity/Rabbinic Judaism)...We could start to say it is finished....

Yet Yeshua dying on a cross, was just the beginning of the Abomination of Desolation.

John 3:3 born again
2 Cor. 5:17 new creature

I already knew where the Pharisaic concept came from, I asked where Yeshua said it... John is made up, and Paul is blatantly anti-Christ's teachings.

 

[1137]

Thanks for posting your perspective. I suppose I believe that the God who is the infinite, eternal Creator understands what is evil.

Indeed, praise Khepri! (See the problem here?)

 

[InChrist]

"Nuh-uh" isn't a logical argument. Do you believe that there are people right now who are being tortured in hell for not believing the gospel?

No, there are no people being tortured in hell by God. Those in hell are self-tormented by their own conscious and realization that they chose to reject the eternal life-giving love, joy, and peace living in harmony with their Creator.

QUOTE="vaguelyhumanoid, post: 4642063, member: 58142"]"And as for the scriptures, there's a lot of examples of some pretty horrid stuff in there. A country governed by Biblical literalist law would look awfully similar to Daesh or Saudi Arabia.[/QUOTE]
There is a lot of horrid stuff in the scriptures because the scriptures do not hide the ramifications and devastating effects of human sin. The Bible does not mandate that a country be governed by biblical laws, other than as Israel was for a specific, historical time period. Christians are to share the gospel of new and eternal life in Christ and the coming kingdom, not reform this fallen world through government. Only when Christ returns will He rule justly bringing peace to this world.

 

[InChrist]

Indeed, praise Khepri! (See the problem here?)

Sorry, I don't see the problem or point you are trying to make. If you feel like it, you may spell it out for me.

 

[1137]

Sorry, I don't see the problem or point you are trying to make. If you feel like it, you may spell it out for me.

I'm questioning whether your god is who you believe. Khepri is a much better creator imo, though my preference is irrelevant.

 

[roger1440]

No, there are no people being tortured in hell by God. Those in hell are self-tormented by their own conscious and realization that they chose to reject the eternal life-giving love, joy, and peace living in harmony with their Creator.

Let me take a wild guess. This "eternal life-giving love, joy, and peace living in harmony with their Creator" can only be found in your church.

 

[InChrist]

Let me take a wild guess. This "eternal life-giving love, joy, and peace living in harmony with their Creator" can only be found in your church.

That is a wild guess and not a very good guess because it is very unbiblical since the scriptures declare that...God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life...John 3:16. I think any church that claims salvation can only be obtained through belonging to their church, denomination, or group is a cult and no church at all of Jesus Christ.

 

[InChrist]

I'm questioning whether your god is who you believe. Khepri is a much better creator imo, though my preference is irrelevant.

Okay, thanks for explaining and for sharing your preference. Though, I don't share your preference nether do I think your perspective is irrelevant.

 

[JoStories]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and the history lesson on the cross, but I was specifically referring to the cross of Christ and what this stands for; His death to pay for the sins of the world and resurrection to offer new life to all who believe.

I know that but the older references also included people having to pay the ultimate price in older faiths. As for what your question here is about, the is no evidence that Christ rose again. But if you are asking in a metaphorical way, one could compare that to my path, which is Buddhism and reaching the enlightened level. I am sorry about I don't believe in sin and new life and all that.

 

[Yoshua]

Because it is a 'covenant with death'; God is the lord of the living, not of the dead.

Proverbs 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

You've been set up by the Pharisees to fail, that is the snare created by YHVH, to catch out all those who would defile the Law for a price.

Hi Wizanda,

I think we should better understand what Paul is saying about dying in Christ. It is the sin should not be the master over us because it brings death. There is no hint of the covenant of dead concept here.

Rom. 6:1-11
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

What should we do with the sin? It is answered in the next passages.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13. and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Prov. 8:36 is telling us about sinning or rebelling against God's will/command for they are facing their destruction (death). This is all about following God.

Simon the stone (petros) told people to baptize in his name, and then the Church has added blatant additions at the end of the gospels.

Yeshua was teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sin; John the Baptist was teaching to baptize.

The made up gospel of John is the one saying Yeshua's disciples were baptizing, they weren't; Mark 6:13 tells us they were anointing, and healing the sick....

This is one of the reasons the church was called Christians (anointed), and not Baptists.

Yes. Jesus is teaching repentance for the forgiveness of sin. Then why Jesus did not prevent John the Baptist to baptize Him?? Why the heavens were opened if God is against baptism? Why Jesus commanded to baptize in His name at Matt. 28:19-20??

Matt. 3:12-17
The Baptism of Jesus
13. Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15. But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.
16. And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him,
17. and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

As Yeshua pointed out, Simon followed the ways of man, more than the ways of God, and was determined to have faith in him... Yeshua rebuked him again here:

Mark 11:21-22 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. (22) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

I think we don't have to argue about faith to Jesus or faith to God unless you don't believe that Jesus is God. Jesus actually pointing it to the Father (God). They are one, He said and He has the only one who had access to the Father.

Because many Christians are jumping to collect a prize, that isn't available, and they're not entitled to....

The Messianic age will be fulfillment of it, the removal of the mother of all harlots (Christianity/Rabbinic Judaism)...We could start to say it is finished....

Yet Yeshua dying on a cross, was just the beginning of the Abomination of Desolation.

Are you a Jew? Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and He came already?

I already knew where the Pharisaic concept came from, I asked where Yeshua said it... John is made up, and Paul is blatantly anti-Christ's teachings.

Oh I see. If Paul is anti-christ, why did Jesus chose him to propagate Jesus' ministry? In the first place, Jesus should not allow Paul to share the truth about Jesus. I know there a lot of anti-Paul here, but one thing that they should understand is to study who is Paul, the context, background, the purpose, the fulfillment etc.. before concluding that Paul's message differed with Christ's teachings.

May I ask you. Could God allowed such hing to happen to Paul by bringing messages about Christ and God did not do something about it?

Thanks

 

[roger1440]

That is a wild guess and not a very good guess because it is very unbiblical since the scriptures declare that...God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life...John 3:16. I think any church that claims salvation can only be obtained through belonging to their church, denomination, or group is a cult and no church at all of Jesus Christ.

What do you mean by "salvation"?

 

[wizanda]

There is no hint of the covenant of dead concept here.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Yeshua taught a living gospel, that by doing good works we glorify God, and thus increase our chances of getting into Heaven.

This by Paul, even though you can't see it, is a dead gospel, a covenant with death, that by making a deal with death, when Yeshua died, you can die with him.

This is also contrary to Yeshua's teachings in the parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, that those who think they get inheritance from his death, shall receive nothing and be condemned instead.

Then why Jesus did not prevent John the Baptist to baptize Him?? Why the heavens were opened if God is against baptism? Why Jesus commanded to baptize in His name at Matt. 28:19-20??

John the Baptists was doing as God instructed him to do; somewhat question if the reason Yeshua was baptized to fulfill all things, was like an anointing.

The end of Matthew, as stating is an addition by the church, it didn't exist in earlier manuscripts....Otherwise we'd find other occurrences of Yeshua giving orders to baptize, and we don't.

Are you a Jew? Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and He came already?

Jew by past genealogy; yet not by religion.

Yeshua never claimed to be the Messiah, when his disciples called him the Christ, he told them not to tell anyone, as all things have not been fulfilled, thus he would be lying if he had said he was the Messiah 2000 years ago.

Oh I see. If Paul is anti-christ, why did Jesus chose him to propagate Jesus' ministry?

Yeshua didn't choose Paul, he made up his visitation on the road to Damascus to infiltrate the early church, and make it into a Pharisaic cult call Christianity.

We see this where James the Just was siding with the Ebionites, against Paul's sacrificial ideology.

As in the parables of the Wheat and the Tares, the deception happened soon after Yeshua was taken up.

In the first place, Jesus should not allow Paul to share the truth about Jesus.

We're in a place near Hell, so Yeshua did well establishing a church here, where his teachings remain in the middle.

before concluding that Paul's message differed with Christ's teachings.

Even within the contexts of whom Paul is writing to, if the messages don't align with the teachings of Yeshua, then they're contradictory.

May I ask you. Could God allowed such hing to happen to Paul by bringing messages about Christ and God did not do something about it?

The Bible prophesied the great deception; Yeshua even prophesied that the vultures would be hovering over his dead body.

This was all supposed to happen like this, so all of the workers of iniquity can be removed in one go.

The Bible is a snare to catch out those who are so quick to the spoils, they'd swear oaths falsely, and get caught red handed stealing, what isn't theirs to claim.

So just as Satan in Job is allowed by God to set people up; so has Paul been allowed to.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I appreciate your thoughts. I just see things differently, Such as, though God called His creation of humans "good" we certainly could not be perfect because only God is perfect.

This excuses why God is an imperfect creator; it doesn't make God a perfect creator.

Also, since we are made in the image of God this included a will and ability to choose, which thereby includes the possibility of less than perfect and harmful choices.

Is there sin in Heaven? Is there free will in Heaven?

Seems to me that God was wise in death as the solution for sin since its ramifications are so destructive to everyone and creation itself that to eliminate it is the only answer...if repentance or change is not chosen.

So sin has been "solved"? In what sense? You said earlier that there's still sin in the world, still causing ramifications.

If the Father God, If Christ the Son does not think it unjust that He be punished, how can you be so sure you know better?

Because - at least in the Christian mythological framework - it's given that humanity knows good from evil. That was Adam's sin: taking this knowledge for humanity. If

The only option left if Christ did not meet the requirements on behalf of humanity is then that each person bear it themselves. Do you want to bear the eternal penalty of sin?

Why isn't it an option for the penalty not to be borne at all? Why can't God just forgive it?

In the past, Christians have told me that "perfect justice" demands that sin be punished, but since letting the guilty go free AND punishing the innocent is less just than merely letting the guilty go free, this explanation makes no sense AFAICT.

As of yet, sin has not ended, except for those in heaven, because history is not over yet, nor has the new heaven and new earth come about yet.

Ah, wait - I think I misread your last post. I think I latched onto "to allow sin to go on forever" but overlooked the part after. Never mind.

 

[Yoshua]

Yeshua taught a living gospel, that by doing good works we glorify God, and thus increase our chances of getting into Heaven.

This by Paul, even though you can't see it, is a dead gospel, a covenant with death, that by making a deal with death, when Yeshua died, you can die with him.

This is also contrary to Yeshua's teachings in the parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, that those who think they get inheritance from his death, shall receive nothing and be condemned instead.

Hi Wizanda,

So when Jesus repeatedly say "Follow Me," does it mean that we should follow Him to do good works?
John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 6:27
24. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Luke 7:50
50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

John 3:3
3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Now, lets look at the word of Jesus about following the law and following Him.

Matt. 19:17-26
16. And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17. And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18. He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19. Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20. The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
21. Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Selling one's own possessions and giving to the poor are good works. How about following Jesus? Did Jesus say you shall do good works only to be saved?
How could you reconcile the statements of Jesus about salvation?

He said "Follow Me," "Believe," "Hear His word" and "Faith in Him." In John 1:12 is to receive Him.
22. But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property.

Jesus was right when He said to follow Him is to deny himself. That is laying down all your will rather than God's will for our lives, and that is to follow Him.
23. And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24. "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25. And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
26. And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Now, let look at what Paul have said in Ephesians 2,
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
We are created in Christ Jesus to do good works, that would mean to follow Jesus rather than to follow our will. Did following Jesus is to do good works? or we follow Jesus because good works are already the result of following Him by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Good works does not produce salvation. Good works are the product of salvation.

John the Baptists was doing as God instructed him to do; somewhat question if the reason Yeshua was baptized to fulfill all things, was like an anointing.

The end of Matthew, as stating is an addition by the church, it didn't exist in earlier manuscripts....Otherwise we'd find other occurrences of Yeshua giving orders to baptize, and we don't.

Did all His disciples preached about Jesus and the salvation?
Mark 1:38-39
38. And He said to them, "Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, in order that I may preach there also; for that is what I came out for."
39. And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.

Mark 3:14-15
14. And He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him, and that He might send them out to preach,
15. and to have authority to cast out the demons.

Jesus is absolutely proclaiming the kingdom of God. He does appointed the disciples to preach also. I don't think making disciples or learner is forbidden by Jesus as well as baptism.

You have a problem with Matthews, Then Mark and Luke are very consistent with Matthew's account for John's baptism.


Mark 1:9-11
9. And it came about in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
10. And immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;
11. and a voice came out of the heavens: "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased."

Luke 3:21-22
21. Now it came about when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
22. and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased."

Jew by past genealogy; yet not by religion.

Yeshua never claimed to be the Messiah, when his disciples called him the Christ, he told them not to tell anyone, as all things have not been fulfilled, thus he would be lying if he had said he was the Messiah 2000 years ago.

John 4:25-26
25. The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26. Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

He claimed it by answering He is the Messiah.

John 1:41-42
41. He found first his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ).
42. He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas" (which is translated Peter).

 

[Yoshua]

Yeshua didn't choose Paul, he made up his visitation on the road to Damascus to infiltrate the early church, and make it into a Pharisaic cult call Christianity.

We see this where James the Just was siding with the Ebionites, against Paul's sacrificial ideology.
Acts 9:1-19
As in the parables of the Wheat and the Tares, the deception happened soon after Yeshua was taken up.

1. Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,
2. and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3. And it came about that as he journeyed, he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
4. and he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5. And he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
6. but rise, and enter the city, and it shall be told you what you must do."
7. And the men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one.
8. And Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.
9. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
10. Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Behold, here am I, Lord."
11. And the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying,
12. and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight."
13. But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Thy saints at Jerusalem;
14. and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon Thy name."
15. But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Jesus should'nt say this statement if He did not chose Paul as instrument to propagate the gospel for Jews and Gentiles. It is very clear.
16. for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."
17. And Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18. And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he arose and was baptized;
19. and he took food and was strengthened.

Even within the contexts of whom Paul is writing to, if the messages don't align with the teachings of Yeshua, then they're contradictory.

Can you show me what are the scriptures that are not aligned with Yeshua's?

Thanks

 

[wizanda]

First, is your posting of scriptures to show how John contradicts Yeshua?

As clearly when asked, Yeshua said, 'to gain eternal life, you must follow the commandments, and give up wealth'; whereas John is telling people you only have to believe in him.

Good works does not produce salvation. Good works are the product of salvation.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his works.

Revelations 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.

I don't think making disciples or learner is forbidden by Jesus as well as baptism.

It says they were out preaching, and healing the sick with anointing oil, not baptizing, you can't make it fit they were, by adding a later understanding of what Christian ideology means when it says to preach.

He claimed it by answering He is the Messiah.

Not in the made up gospel of John, as we can't trust any of those are his words.... Yet someone in a chat room put forward a good argument yesterday; which is that when asked by the Sanhedrin:

Matthew 26:63-64 But Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.” (64) Jesus said to him, “You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”

So he did say he was in a future context, as all things haven't been fulfilled, and we will clearly know when it is the Messianic age.

5. And he said, "Who art Thou, Lord?" And He said, "I (Ego) am (I-mee) Jesus whom you are persecuting,

Luke 21:8 He said, “Watch out that you don’t get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, ‘I (Ego) am (I-mee),’ and, ‘The time is at hand.’ Therefore don’t follow them.

Paul made that bit up, as the vocabulary shows, Yeshua didn't speak that way in the synoptic gospels, and warns against it, it is only found in the bits that are made up or misrepresented.

Can you show me what are the scriptures that are not aligned with Yeshua's?

Did you look at the list of points I've posted to you every time? By all means i can go through, and show where all those scriptures are, yet it is a lot of verses.

 

[Brickjectivity]

But even Paul backs off when he said that there's "faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love". And love without good works is like "cymbals clashing". To me, I think that Paul's "salvation by faith" is both a counter to the concept of "salvation" by just following the Law, plus I believe it's likely that he sees the word "faith" as having faith in Jesus and not just about Jesus. And we well know that this was indeed a characteristic of the early church, namely heavy involvement in helping the ill and the needy, even being willing to put one's own life at risk. Many converted because members of "the Way" were willing to do just that.

BTW, "agape" (love) in Koine Greek actually is rendered as being more of an action-type noun that it is in English. IOW, one just doesn't have love, one does love.

Cannot argue with that, nor do I think Paul is some kind of spy sent to corrupt anything into anything else as has been suggested by another poster. No reputable scholar presents their idea of Paul with absolute certainty. Nor do I think that there is a particular overwhelming story that explains every last detail of every thing Paul ever says. What we do have is the same canon that Paul has, so we can construct from that what he ought to be though this is not necessarily the same thing as what he is historically. Even if there is somehow an overwhelming story explaining him, it seems to me (based on something I read in Misquoting Jesus) that some clerks in charge of the letters are not above changing the Pauline letters a little bit once everything gets political. So the Paul we discuss is understood to be a proxy, a reconstruction based upon what writings we have. Therefore we should expect contradictions in that man, and if he appears to back off then that is even less surprising.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

No, there are no people being tortured in hell by God. Those in hell are self-tormented by their own conscious and realization that they chose to reject the eternal life-giving love, joy, and peace living in harmony with their Creator.

God is omnipotent, is he not? Then anyone who is in hell, he is choosing to put there.

There is a lot of horrid stuff in the scriptures because the scriptures do not hide the ramifications and devastating effects of human sin.

I'm not talking about horrible sins, I'm talking about horrible commandments. And not just in the Old Testament:

"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." (1 Cor 14:34)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." (Eph 6:5)

But while we're on the topic, why did he proscribe half the stuff in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. At the time, was it just and righteous to make an unmarried rape victim marry their rapist? Or to stone children to death for cursing at their parents? Maybe I don't deserve to be put to death for lying with another man now, but would I have had to then?

 

[InChrist]

What do you mean by "salvation"?

Pardon from sin and the gift of eternal life.

 

[Ouroboros]

Whoever you are, whatever you believe, do you despise or embrace what the cross of Jesus Christ represents?

Neither.

I don't despise it.

I don't embrace it.

It's of no great importance to me.