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The "Doctrine of no self/soul"?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If I may pitch in... wouldn't the point of existence be simply to exist and contribute to the best of our wisdom and ability to the flow of existence, YmirGF?

We individually do fade out, but that is not important... is it?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
If I may pitch in... wouldn't the point of existence be simply to exist and contribute to the best of our wisdom and ability to the flow of existence, YmirGF?

We individually do fade out, but that is not important... is it?
If you have no focal point, no self, how exactly would you maintain any sense of individuality in order to impart that "wisdom and ability", Luis? Psychic mind-meld with the Universal mind?

Answer that and I'll give you a gold star. :)
 

joea

Oshoyoi
To attain nothing,is to attain all. Even the self is dissolved. My own understanding of this, is that to go beyond the self where only emptiness is left. You are nobody, and when one realizes this, you have attain all.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
To attain nothing,is to attain all. Even the self is dissolved. My own understanding of this, is that to go beyond the self where only emptiness is left. You are nobody, and when one realizes this, you have attain all.
You use lovely imagry. Can you expand on the image of attianing?
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Attaining the "no mind",is the attaining

Yes I had a little kensho about that today, I found a resting place for a little bit in accepting all experiences and feelings and not differentiating, not choosing to accept or reject. In those moments, its becomes more clear that there might not be anything to "attain" in such a sense at all.
I also realized why attachment and desire cause unhappiness, and depression can cause us to feel out of touch with reality. Its because we choose to reject certain feelings, like as if they shouldnt be there, but by gosh they ARE there, so to reject them would be to reject reality, and doing that for a long time is what causes us to feel disconnected and worse. Also, trying to resist unpleasant feelings just makes them 100 times worse, which is what turns the feelings into so-called "dukka" in the first place.

A little off topic too, but yeah :D

Peace
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If you have no focal point, no self, how exactly would you maintain any sense of individuality in order to impart that "wisdom and ability", Luis? Psychic mind-meld with the Universal mind?

Answer that and I'll give you a gold star. :)

I wouldn't, of course. There is a self, but it is just a temporary construct, by necessity unstable to some degree. It does eventually dissolve or collapse.

But while it retains some coherence, it is useful to act and to bring change.

The "trick" is to realize that existence is not centered in individuals, but instead has the nature of a flow of interactions and inheritances.

So it is not as much a psychic mind-meld as a behavioral act-meld, I guess.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
"Self" in buddhism refers to something "independent". At least that is my understanding. Engyo can probably clarify. This is why it is seen as an illusion. There is nothing independent about anything. We are all interdependent and constantly changing. You are not the same as you were 5 seconds ago. No matter what you think. Nor can you exist by yourself without anything else.

Not in anyway have I understood anatman to insinuate that I don't exist.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Dear friends all, so long as consciousness is being used to 'know' something, then it is cut of from REALITY, for REALITY is eternally on the other side of conceptual representations. So long as there is a 'you' seeking, then it is a given that 'you' perceive that which is sought as being separate and therefore 'you' are cut off from it. The attainment of Enlightenment/Nirvana is the reunion of the perceived separation, not by an act of consciousness, but by the cessation of conscious striving for THAT which is an indivisible ONE.

Please understand that this is not a doctrine of the annihilation of self, but the revolutionary understanding that 'self' is merely a temporary expression of the Eternal, and enlightenment involves merely the transfer of identification of being from the temporary to the permanent.

There is, O disciple,
That which is not born, nor become, nor made.
If that were not so, there would be no refuge
From that which is born, is become, is made.
That is the end of sorrow.
That is Nirvana
.
.......from the Buddha
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
I think most of us are saying the same things; many from differing perspectives, and using different words.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I think most of us are saying the same things; many from differing perspectives, and using different words.
I guess that is what I am puzzling out, Engyo. Can we at least agree that there is far more to the self than is commonly conceived? Would that be a fair statement?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Far more, or far less. Who knows? I still feel that the self is basically an illusion.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
I agree with LuisDantas and Engyo. YmirGF... I definitely don't think there is "more" to the self than is commonly conceived, but the opposite.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Far more, or far less. Who knows? I still feel that the self is basically an illusion.

It seems to me the self is not some essential, permanent thing or being, but is instead a process. And a process, unlike some essential, permanent thing, is both in flux and can be interrupted.

Furthermore, the specific process that moment by moment creates the self seems to be that process that continually differentiates "us" from "other" in our field of consciousness. That process pervades all of consciousness.

To suggest the self is an illusion, therefore, would seem to imply "us" and "other" are illusions. Or no?

At least that's how things seem to me.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yes, pretty much. When we are young we learn to see ourselves as extensions of external concepts such as a surname and a nationality, for instance.

Much of what we see as being "ours" is in fact repetition of learned concepts and attitudes due to the familiarity and feeling of security that such repetition brings us. At the root of it is the primal urge to be accepted and recognized as an integrated individual.

Yet individuality, if it does exist, is fairly fragile. There are way too many ways to disrupt it, quite a few biochemical in nature, for me to think of as an inherent property of beings. It seems to be a cognitive construct instead.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Yes, pretty much. When we are young we learn to see ourselves as extensions of external concepts such as a surname and a nationality, for instance.

Much of what we see as being "ours" is in fact repetition of learned concepts and attitudes due to the familiarity and feeling of security that such repetition brings us. At the root of it is the primal urge to be accepted and recognized as an integrated individual.

Yet individuality, if it does exist, is fairly fragile. There are way too many ways to disrupt it, quite a few biochemical in nature, for me to think of as an inherent property of beings. It seems to be a cognitive construct instead.
I think part of my difficulty here is in coming up against a stunted vision of the self that many people hold. I am sure the reader automatically assumes that I am meaning the singular ego-based identity of a single incarnation. That is not the totality of self I am referring to, and perhaps it is my error for not being clearer.

In some ways, I am bypassing that "aspect" of identity and meaning the inner self. The mortal self, in my view, is a manifestation, in time and space of this larger identity. In reality, it is difficult to think of this larger identity as being a singular entity as it is very much a composite of all of its manifestations (which are forms of expression or fleshing out the possibilities of its being). Also, the Whole, as it were, is not something that is ever completed, but rather, is a thing that is in a constant state of flux and continually growing.

I guess what I am saying is even though the Luis we all know and love will indeed one day change beyond what we currently know, there will still be trace elements incorporated into Luis's larger identity that will be somewhat recognizable. This is much like taking two pictures of the same person, one as a child and one as an old man. Often they are instantly recognizable as being the same person. That is sort of what I am getting at. I hope that makes some kind of sense.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So you believe that we are in fact avatars of our own primordial selves, so to speak?
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Furthermore, the specific process that moment by moment creates the self seems to be that process that continually differentiates "us" from "other" in our field of consciousness. That process pervades all of consciousness.

To suggest the self is an illusion, therefore, would seem to imply "us" and "other" are illusions. Or no?

At least that's how things seem to me.
I see it as more like the Buddhist teaching of the Middle Way; in that "us and other" are both truth and illusion, depending on what viewpoint we approach them from. Just as "all things are empty" but yet when I stub my toe against the leg of the couch, both the couch leg and my toe are definitely NOT empty, this is the truth of the Middle Way.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Zenzero has already posted this as a thread in the Zen subforum, but I think it applies to the discussion at hand, and it is also a different transliteration than the one Zenzero posted:

The Hsin Hsin Ming

"The Great Way is not difficult for those who do not pick and choose.

When pref'rences are cast aside, the Way stands clear and undisguised.

But even slight distinctions made, set earth and heaven far apart.

If you would clearly see the truth, discard opinions pro and con.

To founder in dislike and like is nothing but the mind's disease

And not to see the Way's deep truth disturbs the mind's essential peace.

The Way is perfect like vast space, where there's no lack and no excess.

Our choice to choose and to reject prevents our see'ng this simple truth.

Both striving for the outer world as well as for the inner void condemn us to entangled lives.

Just calmly see that all is one and by themselves false views will go.

Attempts to stop activity will fill you with activity.

Remaining in duality you'll never know of unity.

And not to know this unity lets conflict lead you far astray.

When you assert that things are real, you miss their true reality. But to assert that things are void also misses reality.

The more you talk and think on this the further from the truth you'll be.

Cut off all useless thoughts and words and there's nowhere you cannot go.

Returning to the root itself, you'll find the meaning of all things.

If you pursue appearances you overlook the primal source.

Awak'ning is to go beyond both emptiness as well as form.

All changes in this empty world seem real because of ignorance.

Do not go searching for the truth, just let those fond opinions go.

Abide not in duality, refrain from all pursuit of it.

If there's a trace of right and wrong, True-mind is lost, confused, distraught.

From One-mind comes duality, but cling not even to this One.

When this One-mind rests undisturbed, then nothing in the world offends.

And when no thing can give offense, then all obstructions cease to be.

If all thought-objects disappear, the thinking subject drops away.

For things are things because of mind, as mind is mind because of things.

These two are merely relative and both at source are emptiness.

In emptiness these are not two, yet in each are contained all forms.

Once coarse and fine are seen no more, then how can there be taking sides?

The Great Way is without limit, beyond the easy and the hard.

But those who hold to narrow views are fearful and irresolute;

their frantic haste just slows them down.

If you're attached to anything, you surely will go far astray.

Just let go now of clinging mind, and all things are just as they are. In essence nothing goes or stays.

See into the true self of things, and you're in step with the Great Way, thus walking freely, undisturbed.

But live in bondage to your thoughts, and you will be confused, unclear.

This heavy burden weighs you down, so why keep judging good or bad?

If you would walk the highest way, do not reject the sense domain.

For as it is, whole and complete, this sense world is enlightenment.

The wise do not strive after goals, but fools put themselves in bonds.

The One Way knows no diff'rences, the foolish cling to this and that.

To seek Great Mind with thinking mind is certainly a grave mistake.

From small mind comes rest and unrest, but mind awakened transcends both.

Delusion spawns dualities - these dreams are merely flowers of air - why work so hard at grasping them?

Both gain and loss and right and wrong - once and for all get rid of them.

When you no longer are asleep, all dreams will vanish by themselves.

If mind does not discriminate, all things are just as they are, as One.

To go to this mysterious Source frees us from all entanglements.

When all is seen with "equal mind," to our Self-nature we return.

This single mind goes right beyond all reasons and comparison.

Seek movement and there's no-movement, seek rest and no-rest comes instead.

When rest and no-rest cease to be, then even oneness disappears.

This ultimate finality's beyond all laws, can't be described.

With single mind one with the Way, all ego-centered strivings cease.

Doubts and confusion disappear and so true faith pervades our life.

There is no thing that clings to us and nothing that is left behind.

All's self-revealing, void and clear, without exerting power of mind.

Thought cannot reach this state of truth, here feelings are of no avail.

In this true world of Emptiness, both self and other are no more.

To enter this true empty world, immediately affirm "not-two."

In this "not-two" all is the same, with nothing separate or outside.

The wise in all times and places awaken to this primal truth.

The Way's beyond all space, all time; one instant is ten thousand years.

Not only here, not only there, truth's right before your very eyes.

Distinctions such as large and small have relevance for you no more.

The largest is the smallest, too - here limitations have no place.

What is is not, what is not is - if this is not yet clear to you, you're still far from the inner truth.

One thing is all, all things are one - know this and all's whole and complete.

When faith and Mind are not separate, and not separate are Mind and faith, this is beyond all words, all thought.

For here there is no yesterday, no tomorrow, no today."

----

Basically, I see it as a good description of the "middle way." Also, id like to emphasize that "emptiness" doesnt refer to a vacuum like void, but rather a luminous clear emptiness with infinite potential. At least that is the understanding I have learned.
 
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joea

Oshoyoi
Yes I had a little kensho about that today, I found a resting place for a little bit in accepting all experiences and feelings and not differentiating, not choosing to accept or reject. In those moments, its becomes more clear that there might not be anything to "attain" in such a sense at all.
I also realized why attachment and desire cause unhappiness, and depression can cause us to feel out of touch with reality. Its because we choose to reject certain feelings, like as if they shouldnt be there, but by gosh they ARE there, so to reject them would be to reject reality, and doing that for a long time is what causes us to feel disconnected and worse. Also, trying to resist unpleasant feelings just makes them 100 times worse, which is what turns the feelings into so-called "dukka" in the first place.

A little off topic too, but yeah :D

Peace
DeadFish,
My understanding on the other side of what you're saying is, is to accept all. Nothing is bad and nothing is good. Don't reject, because the moment you reject something, that something becomes a label. A man of understanding do not sought for truth only, but in errors also; In the errors lies the truth. Don't condemn the mud, because the lotus is hidden under the mud; Use the mud to produce the lotus. The Tantra vision also speaks of this, everything is one.
 
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