The epicurean paradox

[Alien826]

Those with better lives will also have crappy things in their lives.

Right. But that was what I said. It illustrates that things could be better, not that they could be perfect. It's actually a rebuttal of the "best of all possible worlds" defense.

I think these are non-issues (in the context the OP is about, that is). The entire concept of "the problem of evil" in theological context is also something I never really saw as an actual "problem" either. More like a fact of life. Then again, I don't require any "special" explanation for it as a non-believer in gods that are supposed to be all-powerful and all-good. But even in that context, I think it's fishy at best.

The problem of evil actually only applies to the concept of a 3-omni god. If you weaken any of the omnis, the problem goes away. And it really is a problem logically.

For "light" to be a thing, you need darkness to contrast it.

No you don't. Light would "be a thing" even if it was universal, difficult though that might be to actualize. And if there were different intensities of light, not difficult to investigate or measure.

For "happiness" to be a thing, you need unhappiness to contrast it.

This is different as happiness is so subjective. I don't see though why different degrees of happiness could not exist, and maybe people would then complain about the lower levels and call themselves "unhappy", but they would still be happy by our standards.

In the words of But*head from MTV's "beavis and but*head":

Eum.. uhuhuhuh... you know, if like... uhuhuhuh... nothing sucked, and like ...everything was cool all the time... uhuhuhuh.... how would you know it was cool??

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I simply got rid of two of these, all-knowing (future is not known)

Then how do you explain these verses:

"the Day when Allah will assemble the messengers and say, 'What was the response you received?' They will say, 'We have no knowledge. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen'"— (Qur'an 5:109)

Allah knows what they will say, so, He knows future.


"And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it. And no grain is there within the darknesses of the earth and no moist or dry [thing] but that it is [written] in a clear record."— (Qur'an 6:59


"[Moses] said, 'The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord neither errs nor forgets.'"— (Qur'an 20:52)


"Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise."— (Qur'an 66:2)

Allah ordians the future! How can you say, He does not know future?

and all capable (there are impossible things to do).

2:117– "He is the One Who has originated the heavens and the earth, and when He wills to a thing, He only says to it: 'Be', and it becomes."

 

[Link]

Then how do you explain these verses

I didn't say he knows nothing of the future, indeed he knows how people will react on the day of judgment but that's different because it's his day, it's not the day of free-will, it's the day he rewards free-will or punishes it. Keys to unseen suggests what I say, that he has predictable power of probabilities and back up plans based on scenarios. It's not that the future is set in stone or that would not need keys. As for the book that everything is in, nothing occurs except by permission of God, that is true, but he erases from the book what he wishes and establishes. This suggests that book is like a program with if statements and scenarios based on what happens. Nothing occurs outside the book, but he establishes and erases what he wishes means it's if/switch statements and scenarios.

As for capable, Imams (a) in hadiths say it's only for things that are logically possible. I can prove that he is not capable of all things, for example, he can't create an equal to himself.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I didn't say he knows nothing of the future, indeed he knows how people will react on the day of judgment but that's different because it's his day, it's not the day of free-will, it's the day he rewards free-will or punishes it. Keys to unseen suggests what I say, that he has predictable power of probabilities and back up plans based on scenarios. It's not that the future is set in stone or that would not need keys. As for the book that everything is in, nothing occurs except by permission of God, that is true, but he erases from the book what he wishes and establishes. This suggests that book is like a program with if statements and scenarios based on what happens. Nothing occurs outside the book, but he establishes and erases what he wishes means it's if/switch statements and scenarios.

you are making statements about God, as if, He is a human with limitations.

If you say, there are things that, God does not know, it definitely contradicts the Quran.

As for capable, Imams (a) in hadiths say it's only for things that are logically possible. I can prove that he is not capable of all things, for example, he can't create an equal to himself.

He is capable, but He does not do illogical things.
He does what He wills, is a proof.
مقتدر علي ما تشاء، و يحكم ما يريد

كن فيكون

If He wants, He can take everyone's life in a moment. If He wants, He can lower everyone's neck to God.

 

[Link]

you are making statements about God, as if, He is a human with limitations.

If you say, there are things that, God does not know, it definitely contradicts the Quran.

The future of free-will by definition cannot be known. If free-will decisions are known by God before they happen, then there was never a possibility of other than that decision. If we have free-will, it's deciding in the moment, it's not pre-destined.

He is capable, but He does not do illogical things.

If he is capable of creating an equal to himself, the right generous thing would be to create all of us as his equals. He's not greedy and would, but it's impossible, he can't do it even if he would love to do it out of generosity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The future of free-will by definition cannot be known. If free-will decisions are known by God before they happen, then there was never a possibility of other than that decision. If we have free-will, it's deciding in the moment, it's not pre-destined.

Knowing future is different than controlling it.
For example, you know the destination of a Bus, and the time it arrives at that destination. It does not mean you control it.
Nowadays, many doctors, can examine a cancer patient, and based on the type of cancer, and other factors, they know exactly how long more the person is alive. it does not mean they interfere or determine his death or change his free will. God has knowledge of future. Simple as that.
Beside this, it is written, God gives life and death. There is alot more into these things than can be describe. There are mysteries about how God does things, that none knows them, except God.

But, it is best, to go with what Scriptures exactly say, rather than using imagination. Imagination does not get anywhere when it comes to God and His ways.

If he is capable of creating an equal to himself, the right generous thing would be to create all of us as his equals. He's not greedy and would, but it's impossible, he can't do it even if he would love to do it out of generosity.

You are thinking of God as a limitied being.
The closest expression to God, is "infinity".
Infinity + Infinity = Infinity

God is already infinity, so, there is no more toom to be added to His Powers, and attributes.
God is not One. "One" is not infinity. So, scriptres speak in a way that, people can understand. But not that God is One, is a correct statement. God does not have a form that can be counted as one. Numbers are attributed of created things. Not God.
He has no similarity to any of His creaturs is a proof.

 

[sayak83]

I think God could've made sure we all get guided. However, that guidance with God making sure we cannot deviate, would not be that meaningful and God would be a trivial feature and our love for him not much meaning. This is because there is no chance of going wrong.

Sure, he can make sure, would we be happy and not suffer? Maybe, maybe over time, it would feel so meaningless and we would be unhappy about it.

Of course, when you allow free-will, things can go wrong, but he chose to do that, setting it up that it would be highly improbable things go wrong.

What was highly improbable has happened, and doors of improbability lead to others, that now, guidance for most, is what has become improbable, but still possible (we got to try).

It was improbable Satan deviate but he did. It was improbably Adam (a) the elite servant he is, to eat of the tree, but he did. And it was improbable people follow others instead of God's chosen ones on earth but they did and Noah (a) could not alter that path. After that, things became difficult because of insincerity curse inherited from others. Believers who were saved usually a great portion turn ungrateful after delivery, and so deviation occurred time and time again, no matter how many times God brought back the truth.

The results are not the worst possible now, but they are not very good either. God has back up plans on top of back up plans.

His planning is always best, but there are better plans, that he prefers, and if we heed his warnings, those would unfold rather then alternative routes.

Are you saying, God, according to Islam, does not have certain foreknowledge of how a being with free will shall choose to act?

 

[Link]

Are you saying, God, according to Islam, does not have certain foreknowledge of how a being with free will shall choose to act?

Yes and Quran says the same and people go through mental loops to not acknowledge the verses that say that.

 

[Link]

The emphasis that he knows what precedes and is ahead of the chosen ones also would not make sense if it was true of all his servants. You see that emphasis on his chosen only never for normal people. It’s because the path of normal people is unknown.

 

[Link]

There are verses that says while God has not yet known the patient and those who strive. That he will come to know the truthful and liars. Many more verses.

 

[1213]

I simply got rid of two of these, all-knowing (future is not known) and all capable (there are impossible things to do).

The answer to why there is evil is, people wanted to know evil. That is why people were expelled to this first death where we can experience what evil truly means. Luckily this is like the virtual reality in Matrix, and nothing of this can destroy our soul, and those who are righteous, can get back to life with God, where there is nothing evil.

 

[Heyo]

Then why doesn't it say that?

I mean, the two are very different concepts.

Because it's a ****ty translation. I agree that it should have been "suffering", but I can understand the message as it is now.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why would we need to define happiness, or explain happiness, or comprehend happiness... for happiness to exist?

In that case, I guess we are all gooblydockblo.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

"I evil from a headache".


Nope.

Furthermore, "to suffer" is a verb. Evil is an adjective (and a noun when used mythically).

But you can say "Headaches are evil."

Nearly anything we'd describe as evil has to do with suffering.

A man kicks puppies: he is evil because he causes suffering on puppies.

War is evil because people die and are displaced.

Hitler was evil because through him many people died and were tortured.

The difference seems to be when religious people refer to things like blasphemy or homosexuality as "evil." But generally, evil tends to describe things that cause suffering.

 

[PearlSeeker]

How would you recognize one if the other doesn't exist?

That's what the buthead quote was about.
"If nothing sucks and everything is cool all the time, how would you know it was cool?"

These are types of things that need some kind of measuring stick.
What is "good" if there is no bad?
What is "light" if there is no dark?
What is "happy" if there is no unhappy?
What is "healthy" if there is no unhealthy?

It seems to me that none of these things have any meaning unless their counterparts can also manifest.

What about Being and non-Being?