The Ethics of Eating Meat

[Twilight Hue]

I think they take B12 supplements.

Actually herbivores generate vitamin B12 by a bacteria in their gut. Omnivores such as ourselves do not have that evolutionary benefit.

It would have been nice if we did though.

 

[Vinayaka]

So? Where do you get your protein?

From the air. I no longer need to eat. I used siddhis to transform lungs into guts.

 

[Mindmaster]

No it doesn't. I make the same amount of effort to make sure I have a healthy diet as someone who eats meat might do. I just select different sources than a meat eater. In fact meat eaters are more prone to obesity, heart disease and cancer than those following a non-meat diet. Sports people wouldn't follow non-meat diets if it impacted on their performance.

Yeah, that's junk science there. Meat is perfectly healthy to eat, but what isn't is all the carb-laden junk that people generally eat to go with it. My diet is 20% carbs, the rest is meats, fats, fiber, and natural sources of the same. Heart disease and cancer are largely genetic as is diabetes and obesity. You can't get these by your eating you get them via your DNA and then eat improperly for your anatomy and gain complications. I'm diabetic, but you can't tell on a blood test and have no complications whatsoever. Blood pressure, and any other measure are fantastic for my age. Eating fat doesn't make you fat -- it's more likely to make you slim as your body uses that to energize you over longer periods of time. Carbs are the real enemy for all the conditions you mentioned... When you consume them your body has to sock them to fat quickly because your blood is overwhelmed by the sugar. I've never weighed less after going heavy meat/fat diet. (I still eat veggies and love them... ) Weigh the same as I did when I was 20 right now and I'm 45.

You can eat a meat-only diet if you want, and that's actually the new craze in sports. Most people doing sports aren't doing vegan because it's just not an efficient source of fat. (Fat contains many muscle building components that are difficult to get from plants.) Meat only diet requires you to add organ meat to your meal plan, but is otherwise completely healthy.

You can live either way, but fact remains there are many cases where vegan diets are inadvisable.

 

[Mindmaster]

Actually herbivores generate vitamin B12 by a bacteria in their gut. Omnivores such as ourselves do not have that evolutionary benefit.

It would have been nice if we did though.

You get all the B vitamins you want from meat consumption. It's the most easily available source.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You get all the B vitamins you want from meat consumption. It's the most easily available source.

Its why I still eat meat.

 

[Mindmaster]

Plants have no consciousness, no ability to feel pain. Killing them is qualitatively different than killing something with a brain.

So, because it's brainless it's OK to kill it? That's not really a justification... Harming a life-form is still harming a life-form.

 

[Mindmaster]

Its why I still eat meat.

You can't possibly eat a healthy diet on vegetables alone. It's absolutely impossible without popping a ton of supplements to get what you're missing. I don't feel like turning my body into a science project so I eat a mixture of low-carb foods.

 

[George-ananda]

It depends on the owner.

Did you know with India having a huge non-cow eating population but heavy on milk and dairy that India has surpassed Argentina as the world's largest exporter of beef. It's probably part of economic survival for farmers in India.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I see no ethnical problems in eating meat, itself. To me, the ethical issues are around slaughter and humane treatment while alive. I do not find ethical vegan arguments to be persuasive, but the health arguments have a point (we tend to eat way too much meat, particularly in America).

The only time I find it unethical to eat meat is when it's from animals like cats and dogs, which were not domesticated as livestock and have a special bond with humans. That is something I do feel is disgusting and offensive. But I'll let the countries who practice that (mostly China and Vietnam) stop that practice on their own. Other than that, I would not eat reptile or amphibian meat, or insects. It does not seem tasty at all. Snails, either. I also won't eat any animal I've had as a pet, either. I have a basic American diet when it comes to meat - beef, pork, chicken, lamb, turkey and fish.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Plants have no consciousness, no ability to feel pain. Killing them is qualitatively different than killing something with a brain.

Wrong:
Beyond the animal brain: plants have cognitive capacities too | Aeon Essays
A Mind Without A Brain: The Science Of Plant Intelligence Takes Root

This idea that plants have no consciousness or mind is going the way that Descartes nonsense about non-human animals being nothing more than biological robots without consciousness went - into the garbage. Yes, plants are conscious and have what can be called a mind. They are living beings, too. Plant lovers who play music for their plants can tell you that, easily. (They like it when you talk to them, too.) I don't know how anyone can look at a centuries-old tree and have the nerve to tell me they aren't as alive and conscious as you or me. Plants release chemicals signaling distress when they are harmed or sick.

 

[Left Coast]

So, because it's brainless it's OK to kill it? That's not really a justification... Harming a life-form is still harming a life-form.

Why is it wrong to kill a brainless lifeform? It has no consciousness, no volition, no desires, no ability to feel pain. What is the moral concern?

 

[Left Coast]

You can't possibly eat a healthy diet on vegetables alone. It's absolutely impossible without popping a ton of supplements to get what you're missing. I don't feel like turning my body into a science project so I eat a mixture of low-carb foods.

I know of zero people who eat vegetables alone. Vegans eat vegetables, fruit, grains, nuts, seeds, beans, etc.

 

[Left Coast]

Wrong:
Beyond the animal brain: plants have cognitive capacities too | Aeon Essays
A Mind Without A Brain: The Science Of Plant Intelligence Takes Root

This idea that plants have no consciousness or mind is going the way that Descartes nonsense about non-human animals being nothing more than biological robots without consciousness went - into the garbage. Yes, plants are conscious and have what can be called a mind. They are living beings, too. Plant lovers who play music for their plants can tell you that, easily. (They like it when you talk to them, too.) I don't know how anyone can look at a centuries-old tree and have the nerve to tell me they aren't as alive and conscious as you or me. Plants release chemicals signaling distress when they are harmed or sick.

This appears to be an extremely controversial opinion among botanists, which many in the field have rejected:
Botanists Say Plants Are Not Conscious

While obviously plants are alive, and may have some sensory systems that are analogous to mental ones in some ways, this seems a far cry from consciousness to me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This appears to be an extremely controversial opinion among botanists, which many in the field have rejected:
Botanists Say Plants Are Not Conscious

While obviously plants are alive, and may have some sensory systems that are analogous to mental ones in some ways, this seems a far cry from consciousness to me.

I read the abstract and the article and it mostly seems they're quibbling over terms. The second link I posted addresses this controversy in the sciences. I think it's clear that some are dragging their feet and others don't know quite what to make of the studies pointing towards plants having a mind of sorts. After all, we can't even really define what consciousness is, and with current science mostly thinking it requires a brain to "emerge from" (which is a bias they will have to overcome), to say otherwise is revolutionary. They'll get over it.

 

[Left Coast]

I read the abstract and the article and it mostly seems they're quibbling over terms. The second link I posted addresses this controversy in the sciences. I think it's clear that some are dragging their feet and others don't know quite what to make of the studies pointing towards plants havinga mind of sorts. After all, we can't even really define what consciousness is, and with current science thinking it requires a brain to "emerge" from (which is a bias they will have to overcome), to say otherwise is revolutionary. They'll get over it.

I don't know enough of the research particulars to pretend I'm more informed on the subject than any of them are. That said, it seems to me that whatever "mind" a plant may have, it is qualitatively different than the minds of animals with brains. Decades of brain and cognitive science research can't just be hand-waved away. So applying the term "mind" to plants seems to be a generous metaphor or analogy at best. But, I'll wait for more research and a consensus among experts to emerge. In the meantime, I'd like to avoid harm to the organisms I can be highly confident are conscious, can feel pain, etc. whenever possible. Which includes not killing them to consume them for food.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't know enough of the research particulars to pretend I'm more informed on the subject than any of them are. That said, it seems to me that whatever "mind" a plant may have, it is qualitatively different than the minds of animals with brains. Decades of brain and cognitive science research can't just be hand-waved away. So applying the term "mind" to plants seems to be a generous metaphor or analogy at best. But, I'll wait for more research and a consensus among experts to emerge. In the meantime, I'd like to avoid harm to the organisms I can be highly confident are conscious, can feel pain, etc. whenever possible. Which includes not killing them to consume them for food.

As I am an animist, the science is decidedly behind the the times when it comes to that which is obvious to me, like with most things. I don't need a scientist to tell me what is intuitive.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you consider it ethical to eat meat? If yes, are there any circumstances in which you consider it unethical? Do you eat some types of meat but not others (for ethical reasons)? What reasoning do you use to arrive at your conclusion?

I think vegetarianism (while nice) doesn't actually amount to better ethics for humans, mainly because people are so unethical. Eating meat is very human, but not eating meat cannot make us better than we are.

 

[Left Coast]

As I am an animist, the science is decidedly behind the the times when it comes to that which is obvious to me, like with most things. I don't need a scientist to tell me what is intuitive.

Neither do I. And it's pretty intuitive to me that the mental faculties of my cat vastly outweigh whatever "mind" my tomato plants out back have. And it's pretty intuitive to me that harvesting tomatoes from my tomato plant to eat (or even killing said plant, though I hope that wouldn't be necessary) is doing vastly less harm than killing my cat for food.

 

[Left Coast]

I think vegetarianism (while nice) doesn't actually amount to better ethics for humans, mainly because people are so unethical. Eating meat is very human, but not eating meat cannot make us better than we are.

I don't follow the logic here. If you refrain from doing something unethical, aren't you by definition behaving more ethically than you would be otherwise?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Neither do I. And it's pretty intuitive to me that the mental faculties of my cat vastly outweigh whatever "mind" my tomato plants out back have. And it's pretty intuitive to me that harvesting tomatoes from my tomato plant to eat (or even killing said plant, though I hope that wouldn't be necessary) is doing vastly less harm than killing my cat for food.

To me, it comes down to a form of prejudice because plants are so different from us in their form and such. It's a problem with primal psychology to make us biased towards our own kind over others. Not too long ago, we thought the same about all non-human animals like your kitty and many still think the same.