The Exodus: What are we looking for?

[fallingblood]

Over the last week, I have been traveling quite extensively for work. During most of that time, I spend listening to various scholars. One of them made the comment that if the Hebrews did in fact make the Exodus, what would we expect to find left behind?

The statement has been made quite often that we can be sure there was no exodus as there is no physical evidence of it. This usually also relies on taking the account quite literally, which just is a mistake anyway.

But, if we assume (and it is a safe assumption) that the number of individuals who participated in this exodus, and the total time period in which it occurred for, were exaggerated, would we actually expect to find any physical evidence?

I would argue that we wouldn't. If we were talking about a relatively small group, even for a long period of time, there really is no reason to assume we would find much. The articles that would have been taken with (clothing, jars, possibly food, etc) either would have deteriorated quickly (such as the clothing if they would loose it) or simply would not have been discarded (such as jars or personal items).

So I would say that the Exodus can not be disproven on a lack of evidence here mainly because we should not expect any physical evidence here.

 

[Iti oj]

far argument. but i would say Egyptian documentation would be the key place to look their should be some kind of evidence they were good bookkeepers(which is the only word in the English language with three consecutive double letters)
We should expect any combination of the following
Evidence of their enslavement
Evidence of a religious insurgence
evidence of a deduction of slaves or peasants
possible rebellion uprisings etc

Edit and as for evidence of transit? well if the exodus took place over several generations i would expect to see way stations and small settlements safe houses etc

 

[outhouse]

lack of egyptian evidence of a enslaved race of Israelites

lack of evidence Israelites were ever in egypt

lack of evidence on the trail from Egypt to Israel

lack of evidence in Israel with any supporting evidence of a egyptian origin.


speaks volumes


But really the evidence of the Canaanite origin for Israelites burys this exodus as the mythology it has been proven to be.

The EVIDENCE of a slow migration from Canaanite cultures over a few hundred year's, and the mythical theology of exodus, leave no room in any credible scholarship to view the exodus as any kind of valid history in any way shape or form, other then there might be a historical core buried that has no ressemblance to the story as written

 

[outhouse]

purple unicorns with yellow polka dots that fly! because they fly they wont leave any tracks, and they also fly at night so no photos can be taken. They dont eat so you dont have to worry about getting pooped on either. I'm afraid like the exodus, these dont have any evidence either.

and im sure the three drunk guy's who claimed to have seen them are not any different for credibility then the same people that gave us global floods and a man who put 2 no 7 kinds of animals on a big wooden boat and claimed unicorns missed their ride to safety

 

[fallingblood]

far argument. but i would say Egyptian documentation would be the key place to look their should be some kind of evidence they were good bookkeepers(which is the only word in the English language with three consecutive double letters)
We should expect any combination of the following
Evidence of their enslavement
Evidence of a religious insurgence
evidence of a deduction of slaves or peasants
possible rebellion uprisings etc

Edit and as for evidence of transit? well if the exodus took place over several generations i would expect to see way stations and small settlements safe houses etc

The Egyptians may have been good bookkeepers (I liked your piece of trivia with this) but we also know that they destroyed records as well, and in some cases quite thoroughly. If the Hebrews (or proto-Israelites) did in fact rebel, were a small group, and succeeded, such an embarrassment may just be erased. Or maybe it was just an insignificant movement that left, one that simply was not noticed (which would be especially possible during a time of turmoil).


As for transit buildings, it would be likely that they brought any such building material with the for the next time they needed it. And what was left, would have deteriorated or taken by others for the same purpose they had already been used for.

Now, we do have some literary evidence that suggests that some Hebrews (or proto-Hebrews) did have contact with Egypt, and enough so that they were at least familiar with them on a basic level. For instance, in Leviticus we have mention (indirectly) of their laws. And we also have, with in the Exodus narrative stories that don't seem to have been logical to create. Which suggests some influence from Egypt.

So I wouldn't argue that all the Hebrews mass migrated from Egypt, but it is quite possible that some did. And that a lack of physical evidence really is not surprising.

 

[Levite]

Over the last week, I have been traveling quite extensively for work. During most of that time, I spend listening to various scholars. One of them made the comment that if the Hebrews did in fact make the Exodus, what would we expect to find left behind?

The statement has been made quite often that we can be sure there was no exodus as there is no physical evidence of it. This usually also relies on taking the account quite literally, which just is a mistake anyway.

But, if we assume (and it is a safe assumption) that the number of individuals who participated in this exodus, and the total time period in which it occurred for, were exaggerated, would we actually expect to find any physical evidence?

I would argue that we wouldn't. If we were talking about a relatively small group, even for a long period of time, there really is no reason to assume we would find much. The articles that would have been taken with (clothing, jars, possibly food, etc) either would have deteriorated quickly (such as the clothing if they would loose it) or simply would not have been discarded (such as jars or personal items).

So I would say that the Exodus can not be disproven on a lack of evidence here mainly because we should not expect any physical evidence here.

Personally, I tend to believe that there were actually several small exoduses, resulting in small groups of proto-Israelites escaping slavery to join up with other proto-Israelitish bedouin clans in the wilderness, probably with various different charismatic leaders (and several incidents of group revelation of YHVH, although of course that's purely my religious belief). I think these events were later edited and condensed into a single Exodus narrative with a single charismatic leader and a single incident of mass revelation. Likewise, I think these "waves" of exodused proto-Israelites colonized Canaan over the course of several generations, resulting in a series of narratives that would eventually become Judges, which to me has always seemed to ring far truer than Joshua (a book for which there is scant supporting archaeological evidence, and some to the contrary). The Exodus-conquest of Canaan narrative in Torah is, I think, a highly condensed and slightly embellished account of what was probably originally a more diverse, rougher, and perhaps even more self-contradictory set of narratives depicting a people coming together, resolving internal strifes and customs, and allowing the traditions rooted in shared experiences of revelation to push them from henotheism to monolatry, and eventually to go on to monotheism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Now, we do have some literary evidence that suggests that some Hebrews (or proto-Hebrews) did have contact with Egypt, and enough so that they were at least familiar with them on a basic level. For instance, in Leviticus we have mention (indirectly) of their laws.

When do you think Leviticus was authored, by whom, and after how many centuries of Egyptian activity in the Levant?

 

[JustWondering]

I suppose you can paint anything on a blank canvas.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I suppose you can paint anything on a blank canvas.

By blank canvas are you referring to the state or archaeological and philological data or to the state your current understanding?

 

[JustWondering]

By blank canvas are you referring to the state or archaeological and philological data or to the state your current understanding?

There is no conclusive evidence to back any theory. So, believe what you want.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no conclusive evidence to back any theory. So, believe what you want.

What are the last three books you've read on Syro-Palestinian archaeology or Israelite ethnogenesis?

 

[Iti oj]

I think we would also see more egyptian influences on thd culture and religion.

 

[JustWondering]

What are the last three books you've read on Syro-Palestinian archaeology or Israelite ethnogenesis?

zero.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no conclusive evidence to back any theory. So, believe what you want.

What are the last three books you've read on Syro-Palestinian archaeology or Israelite ethnogenesis?

zero.

It shows.

 

[JustWondering]

It shows.

Nice personal attack. Really. If I'm missing something, than educate me. If you can.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nice personal attack.

It was not a personal attack. I was simply noting the obvious.

Really. If I'm missing something, than educate me.

Very well.

Lesson 1: to make a definitive claim without having done the requisite research is intellectually irresponsible, fundametally dishonest, and accomplishes little beyond making yourself look silly while damaging your credibility.

If you can.

I am clearly in no position to know whether or not that's possible in your case.

 

[JustWondering]

I am clearly in no position to know whether or not that's possible in your case.

Never know till you try. I'm listening.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Never know till you try. I'm listening.

Great. Did you hear the part about ...

... to make a definitive claim without having done the requisite research is intellectually irresponsible, fundametally dishonest, and accomplishes little beyond making yourself look silly while damaging your credibility.​

and, if so, what remedial action do you intent to take?

 

[JustWondering]

Great. Did you hear the part about ...

... to make a definitive claim without having done the requisite research is intellectually irresponsible, fundametally dishonest, and accomplishes little beyond making yourself look silly while damaging your credibility.
​

and, if so, what remedial action do you intent to take?

Now your trying to lead us in circles. What knowledge and evidence can you impart on me to prove your point? I'm waiting.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Now your trying to lead us in circles.

No, I'm trying to lead you to responsibly study rather than ignorantly assert. In your case, the concept seem to have little or no appeal.