The Failed Messiah Crusades

[Clara Tea]

What if it is you that has not understood the message from Jesus?

Even if Jesus isn't the Messiah, certainly we should consider that his message of kindness is worthy.

 

[Clara Tea]

If you think anyone is capable of a selfless act, you are gravely mistaken.


"The ego is the center of consciousness, whereas the Self is the center of the total personality, which includes consciousness, the unconscious, and the ego. The Self is both the whole and the center. While the ego is a self-contained little circle off the center contained within the whole, the Self can be understood as the greater circle"
_______________________
Carl Jung

Maybe we could put another self inside the ego, and another ego inside the self?

 

[Clara Tea]

So you say, but it is irrefutable that He is the only one that is still glorified and His followers went on to change the world in His name. No other human being can claim to have such an impact on history. What a "failure". If only I could fail like Him. Merry Christmas!

In the name of Jesus much money is raised. I think that Reverend Joel Olsteen just bought a multi-million dollar jet with some of his mammon. Maybe he could send a picture of his wealth to poor people, so they could aspire to wealth, as well?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Some things are more probable than others. Yet, nothing about the Messiah seems certain.

Nothing in this world is certain. This is equally true of history, religion, science and philosophy, and is recognised by the most enlightened thinkers in all disciplines.

The noblest minds take their cue from Socrates; “The one thing I know, is that I know nothing. This is the source of my wisdom.”

 

[RestlessSoul]

Maybe we could put another self inside the ego, and another ego inside the self?

Like a Russian doll? I have one that works back from Putin to Ivan the Terrible…

 

[viole]

Why do you think it is prehistoric thinking, because you don't like the idea that sex should be regulated? The damage that unregulated sex does to society is clearly apparent - abortion, adultery, broken families, venereal diseases.

Wait a second. What is wrong with abortion? We have abortion is Sweden, and no trace of any damage. Same with homosexual marriages, sexual freedom, etc. with all those things, we are faring pretty well. You should allow them in your country, too.

I think you are arbitrarily defining what is wrong and what is right in order to support your case. In the interest of precision, when you claim something as morally wrong, you should add “in my opinion”.

ciao

- viole

 

[firedragon]

Interpreting narratives, is a method by which religious people and historians extrapolate meaning from ancient texts. It’s at the core of what they do, though of course religious scholars and secular historians have different methodologies. Still, they find meaning in stories.

Not necessarily. If you get into Christian biblical scholarship, they take a historical approach, though they are Christian. Secular historians predominantly use the same methods developed by Christians. So they dont really have different methodologies. This is applicable to many religions. I appreciate your humility, but its fundamentally quite wrong.

You are referring to what people call "fundamentalists". That is not general.

 

[Colt]

By the first century A.D., the Jews were looking for strong, magnetic leaders who could deliver them from the wrath of the Roman Empire. The Essenes developed the idea of a messiah figure that would provide this. Several Jewish leaders were set to take over after the death of the Jewish King Herod, who primarily worked for the Romans. To qualify as a messiah, someone needed to be from the bloodline of King David. None of the descendants of King David and their misled disciples succeeded, and most were killed.

While these messiah figures drew support from the claim they descended from King David, wherein Judaic tradition did this claim that Davidic pedigree was necessary to become a Messiah come from? When King David ruled Israel (circa 10th century B.C.E.), the conviction arose that his progeny would “rule forever, not only over Israel but also over all the nations”.

One that stands out is a former slave of King Herod by the name of Simon of Perea. Simon was the first heretical Jew who managed to convince a large portion of the Jews that he was the King of Jews and Jehova's Messiah. When the Roman Empire caught wind of this they dispatched military units to put an end to this claim. They would eventually corner and behead Simon in 4 B.C.

Anthronges was another deified Messiah who waged a serious war against the Roman Empire and also lost. Next came Yeshua the Nazarene. Proclaiming himself king of the Jews, Yeshua was eventually hunted down and crucified. Oddly enough, Yeshua was far from a warrior, would never be able to lead men in battle or control the logistics of a military campaign. Had King David met Yeshua, he would have been greatly disappointed with the gentle ideas of this self-proclaimed messiah.

New Testament scholar, Bart Ehrman, eloquently stated:
"To call Jesus the messiah was for most Jews completely ludicrous. Jesus was not the powerful leader of the Jews. He was a weak and powerless nobody—executed in the most humiliating and painful way devised by the Romans, the ones with the real power.”

After Yeshua there came a dozen other Messianic campaigns, none of which are publicized by the Abrahamic faith, and all of which ultimately failed. Theudas in 58 C.E., Menachem ben Judah ben Hezekiah, Simon ben Kosevah, Moses of Crete, Abu Isa, Al-Ra'i" ("the shepherd of the flock of his people"), Saüra the Syrian, to name a few.

Ultimately, there has never been a true Jewish messiah because they all failed in their missions and were killed by the Romans. Yeshua (Jesus) failed as a messiah and stood in a long line of failed messiahs.

Jesus didn’t actually teach that he was the Jewish Messiah. He was evasive about that because he knew he could never meet their false expectations. But they were “expecting” a deliverer and there were different schools of thought about the identity of a messianic figure so he used their expectation to teach his gospel.

“My kingdom is not of this world”. Jesus repeatedly taught that his kingdom was spiritual and that the “king” is the Father in the heart of the believer.

The Jews concept of a Messiah savior for their material kingdom is missing in action. In this regard the Jews were false prophets.

Jesus was/is the Son of God for ALL the world not the Jewish Messiah for a self-proclaimed “chosen people”. The problem wasn’t the ancient expectation of the coming son (which was the reason for the agreement with Abraham and the existence of Israel) the problem is how the concept of a Messiah, priest/prophet/king evolved in Judaism. Being selected to receive the Son went to the heads of the Jews who developed a nationalist egotism and a segregated theological arrogance.

But how was to Son to proceed with his public work on the basis of such false expectations? He decided to allow the Father to untangle the mess, a work that is ongoing. Jesus knew he wasn’t the Jews Messiah and that he could never fulfill the false expectations of a warrior King of a material kingdom. Besides, the Jews would never share their God equally with the Gentiles world whom they utterly despised!

The Kingdom of Israel came to an end. Today it’s a museum to broken promises and the rejection of their sacred calling.

The spiritual kingdom of believers in Jesus lives on, it went West to a world more open to the idea of spiritual victory. Eventually the original Gospel of the kingdom of heaven will subdue the world.

 

[PureX]

… And yet Rome eventually became Christian, and the empire is no more. Meanwhile the Jews now have their own nation, and the power to defend it.

One might say that the Christ really was that messiah they were awaiting.

 

[VoidCat]

What are you talking about?

He's showing you that christmas can't be pagan cuz of how it's celebrated. It's clearly a Christian holiday
That's why he added the song and the words regarding communion.
He's saying that aint pagan clearly Christmas isn't pagan but Christian. Isnt that correct @Saint Frankenstein ?

 

[RestlessSoul]

… And yet Rome eventually became Christian, and the empire is no more. Meanwhile the Jews now have their own nation, and the power to defend it.

One might say that the Christ really was that messiah they were awaiting.

This reminds me of a scene in The Sopranos (Series 2 I think) where Tony is trying to intimidate a Jewish business associate, and can’t understand why the guy isn’t afraid of him. The Jewish man tells Tony the story of the Siege of Jerusalem, and how the Romans destroyed the City and the Temple, but no Jew let himself be taken alive.

“We Jews are still here. And the Romans, where are they now?” the guy asked.

“You’re looking at ‘em *******”, Tony replied.

 

[EtuMalku]

Why can't people be free to have faith and belief personally what is right for them, same as you are free to believe what you do.

I did post this on the LHP Forum, but the Mods moved it to obviously create some kind of 'debate' and controversy. You never would have seen this otherwise.

 

[EtuMalku]

Isn't Herod an Arab?

He was born Arabic but was a practicing Jew.

 

[EtuMalku]

But you started this thread with a story, or series of stories; which you then interpreted, in a manner supportive of a theory or belief. This is exactly what all religious people do, and all historians come to that.

Happy Christmas btw.

Happy Holidays to you too!
I just stated the facts, I didn't make anything.

 

[EtuMalku]

Pagans go to church to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ and take the Eucharist on Christmas?

Here is where your confusion originated.

You said: "Doesn't sound too cheerful to me. Sounds very bitter. Cheerful people don't attack the beliefs of others during a major holy day of their religion."

I said: "That's pretty rich given that Christianity appropriated every Pagan holiday with its own in the attempt to usurp those religions."

To which you replied: "Pagans go to church to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ and take the Eucharist on Christmas?"

I hope that clears you up . . .

 

[Harel13]

Isn't Herod an Arab?

Herod's father was the son of one of the Edomites forced to convert by the Hasmonean king John Hyrcanus. Herod's mother was an Arab princess. It's unclear just how legally Jewish Herod himself was. I myself have been pondering the subject recently. The forced conversion of the Edomites, and later, of the Itureans, while problematic in the first place, was eventually deemed acceptable, so Herod's paternal side was legally Jewish. However, the question comes down to whether Herod's mother was really Jewish, i.e., did she properly convert? It seems highly unlikely that prominent high-class Jewish families would wed their daughters to Herod (among his wives were Miriam of the House of the Hasmoneans and Miriam II, of the Boethusians), so more likely that he was considered Jewish.

 

[EtuMalku]

Herod's father was the son of one of the Edomites forced to convert by the Hasmonean king John Hyrcanus. Herod's mother was an Arab princess. It's unclear just how legally Jewish Herod himself was. I myself have been pondering the subject recently. The forced conversion of the Edomites, and later, of the Itureans, while problematic in the first place, was eventually deemed acceptable, so Herod's paternal side was legally Jewish. However, the question comes down to whether Herod's mother was really Jewish, i.e., did she properly convert? It seems highly unlikely that prominent high-class Jewish families would wed their daughters to Herod (among his wives were Miriam of the House of the Hasmoneans and Miriam II, of the Boethusians), so more likely that he was considered Jewish.

I've never agreed that people are born Jewish, it's a faith that one enters into. Whether Herod the Great was forced into conversion or not doesn't matter. He became King Herod of the Jewish Faith. That is the person I am referring to.

 

[Harel13]

I've never agreed that people are born Jewish, it's a faith that one enters into.

Whether you agree with it or not is beside the point here, because the matter under discussion is the ethnicity of Herod.

That said, your point is interesting because that it embodies the Roman worldview that there exist no other ethic groups in the Roman Empire save for the Romans themselves. The Greeks, on the other hand, disagreed. It was because they believed in ethnicities that they named the area most populated by Jews "Iudea", the area most populated by Edomites "Idumea", the area most populated by Samaritans as "Samaria", and so forth.

Let it be said that the Roman ideology hit a brick wall with the Jews, because though they received freedom of religion from the Romans, they demanded national freedom as well. That led to several rebellions, including two of the most embarrassing ones for the mighty Roman empire.

 

[EtuMalku]

Whether you agree with it or not is beside the point here, because the matter under discussion is the ethnicity of Herod.

That said, your point is interesting because that it embodies the Roman worldview that there exist no other ethic groups in the Roman Empire save for the Romans themselves. The Greeks, on the other hand, disagreed. It was because they believed in ethnicities that they named the area most populated by Jews "Iudea", the area most populated by Edomites "Idumea", the area most populated by Samaritans as "Samaria", and so forth.

Let it be said that the Roman ideology hit a brick wall with the Jews, because though they received freedom of religion from the Romans, they demanded national freedom as well. That led to several rebellions, including two of the most embarrassing ones for the mighty Roman empire.

Jewish is not an ethnicity, simple as that.

 

[Harel13]

Jewish is not an ethnicity, simple as that.

And yet the ancient world disagreed with you, as do Jews to this day.
Tell me, per your view: What exactly made Herod Jewish?