The Failed Messiah Crusades

[EtuMalku]

And yet the ancient world disagreed with you, as do Jews to this day.
Tell me, per your view: What exactly made Herod Jewish?

He converted or accepted the faith. There are no genetics that make you Jewish.

 

[Harel13]

He converted or accepted the faith. There are no genetics that make you Jewish.

What's the difference between converting and accepting the faith?
And what exactly did Herod do in life that shows he was Jewish?
He built grand temples for pagan deities. He murdered hundreds of people in cold blood. He stabbed people in the back left and right. He fired high priests and replaced them with less-qualified individuals. Sure, he renovated the Jewish temple - but he promptly placed a golden eagle above the door, which is a form of idolatry.

 

[EtuMalku]

What's the difference between converting and accepting the faith?
And what exactly did Herod do in life that shows he was Jewish?
He built grand temples for pagan deities. He murdered hundreds of people in cold blood. He stabbed people in the back left and right. He fired high priests and replaced them with less-qualified individuals. Sure, he renovated the Jewish temple - but he promptly placed a golden eagle above the door, which is a form of idolatry.

You can be forced to convert, doesn't mean you accept that faith. I never said Herod was a nice person. There are plenty of atrocities by many religions, I'm not debating that at all.

 

[Harel13]

I never said Herod was a nice person.

So what made him Jewish? I have an answer - but that's one that you deny has any legitimacy. I'm not aware of any records that state that Herod converted by force or by choice. So in what way was he Jewish?

 

[EtuMalku]

So what made him Jewish? I have an answer - but that's one that you deny has any legitimacy. I'm not aware of any records that state that Herod converted by force or by choice. So in what way was he Jewish?

Herod was born into a family of Idumean converts. Idumeans, the Hellenistic name for Edomites, were the dominant population in the Negev in the Second Temple period, but were integrated into Judea once they were conquered by John Hyrcanus, and forced to adopt Judaism.

 

[Harel13]

Herod was born into a family of Idumean converts. Idumeans, the Hellenistic name for Edomites, were the dominant population in the Negev in the Second Temple period, but were integrated into Judea once they were conquered by John Hyrcanus, and forced to adopt Judaism.

Ah, so he was born Jewish. Because he was born into a family of Jews.

 

[EtuMalku]

Ah, so he was born Jewish. Because he was born into a family of Jews.

'Jewish' is not an ethnicity, there is no genetic code that makes you jewish.

 

[Harel13]

'Jewish' is not an ethnicity, there is no genetic code that makes you jewish.

So what made Herod Jewish?

 

[EtuMalku]

So what made Herod Jewish?

Try reading my replies, I've already explained this.

 

[Harel13]

Try reading my replies, I've already explained this.

Actually, you haven't. As long as we remain in agreement that Herod didn't act Jewish, and yet you contend that he wasn't born Jewish, you have yet to explain what made him Jewish. Still waiting on that one.

 

[EtuMalku]

Actually, you haven't. As long as we remain in agreement that Herod didn't act Jewish, and yet you contend that he wasn't born Jewish, you have yet to explain what made him Jewish. Still waiting on that one.

This is what I already posted in reply to you: "Herod was born into a family of Idumean converts. Idumeans, the Hellenistic name for Edomites, were the dominant population in the Negev in the Second Temple period, but were integrated into Judea once they were conquered by John Hyrcanus, and forced to adopt Judaism."

Herod was born into a practicing Jewish family, he practiced Judaism, that is what makes someone of a faith, they accept it and practice it.

 

[Harel13]

Herod was born into a practicing Jewish family, he practiced Judaism, that is what makes someone of a faith, they accept it and practice it.

So back to the other question: In what way was Herod Jewish? He freely erected pagan statues and temples and murdered many people - two of the three cardinal sins of Judaism, and that's besides for his other sins. He didn't really practice Judaism - so in what way was he Jewish?

 

[EtuMalku]

So back to the other question: In what way was Herod Jewish? He freely erected pagan statues and temples and murdered many people - two of the three cardinal sins of Judaism, and that's besides for his other sins. He didn't really practice Judaism - so in what way was he Jewish?

How is Yahweh Christian, he murdered, raped, enslaved hundreds of thousands of people.
The original Jewish faith was polytheistic, so they accepted many deities other than Jehova. What made him Jewish? do I really have to explain this a third time to you?

 

[Harel13]

What made him Jewish? do I really have to explain this a third time to you?

I'm still waiting for the first time. You have yet to do so. That stuff you wrote before is irrelevant. First, because the topic here is Judaism, not Christianity. Herod died long before Christianity was a thing. Second, because there isn't any hard evidence that Biblical Judaism was polytheistic, but even if there was, the topic here is Jews of the Second Temple era, a time which any academic scholar worth his salt and the proud owner of at least two ounces of brain cells will admit featured a monotheistic Judaism. Hence, irrelevant to the Jewish status of Herod.

 

[EtuMalku]

I'm still waiting for the first time. You have yet to do so. That stuff you wrote before is irrelevant. First, because the topic here is Judaism, not Christianity. Herod died long before Christianity was a thing. Second, because there isn't any hard evidence that Biblical Judaism was polytheistic, but even if there was, the topic here is Jews of the Second Temple era, a time which any academic scholar worth his salt and the proud owner of at least two ounces of brain cells will admit featured a monotheistic Judaism. Hence, irrelevant to the Jewish status of Herod.

Wow . . . read closely. Herod -> born into Jewish family -> Herod practices Judaism -> Herod accepts Jewish faith -> Herod is a Jew.

 

[Harel13]

Wow . . . read closely. Herod -> born into Jewish family -> Herod practices Judaism -> Herod accepts Jewish faith -> Herod is a Jew.

Yes. Believe me that I've thoroughly read every one of your posts directed at me. In what way did Herod accept the Jewish faith and practice it? Evidence stands to the contrary. Hence, the big question remains: In what way was Herod Jewish?

 

[EtuMalku]

Yes. Believe me that I've thoroughly read every one of your posts directed at me. In what way did Herod accept the Jewish faith and practice it? Evidence stands to the contrary. Hence, the big question remains: In what way was Herod Jewish?

He would practice Judiasm, how else does one become of a faith? He promoted Judaism. The Romans appointed King Herod as King of Judea in 37 BC. ... The Romans also gave Herod the title 'King of the Jews' because of the Jewish population he ruled.

What gives you the idea he wasn't Jewish?

 

[Harel13]

He would practice Judiasm, how else does one become of a faith? He promoted Judaism. The Romans appointed King Herod as King of Judea in 37 BC. ... The Romans also gave Herod the title 'King of the Jews' because of the Jewish population he ruled.

The view of just about anyone who is knowledgeable in the life of Herod except for you is that he received that title because he was king of the Jewish people, a distinct ethnicity that resided in Judea (and later annexed other Jewish territories). Having that title does not make one Jewish. Were that true, that would have made every single person who has ever ruled over Jews as Jewish. I think you'll agree with me (though I may be wrong) that that's not true. So, in what way did he promote Judaism? Was it via the pagan temple he built for Augustus Caesar and Roma? Was it via the slaughter of the Pharisee sages, the spiritual leaders of the vast majority of the Jewish people? Was it via the heavy minimizing of the role of the Jewish High Priest to the point of near-mockery?

What gives you the idea he wasn't Jewish?

Because, to my knowledge, we do not have any source that states that he converted (and he was born two generations after the mass Edomite conversion, so he couldn't have been part of that), and we know that his mother was born an Arab princess: The question rests on whether his mother converted or not.

I myself am of the opinion that she did and Herod was properly Jewish - though more often than not he didn't act that way (but if it interests you, I can present some examples in which he did). He was properly Jewish because both of his parents were ethnically Jewish: His father was Jewish because his parents were part of the Edomite conversion, and his mother because she herself converted to Judaism. And that's how the Jewish ethnicity works.

 

[EtuMalku]

The view of just about anyone who is knowledgeable in the life of Herod except for you is that he received that title because he was king of the Jewish people, a distinct ethnicity that resided in Judea (and later annexed other Jewish territories). Having that title does not make one Jewish. Were that true, that would have made every single person who has ever ruled over Jews as Jewish. I think you'll agree with me (though I may be wrong) that that's not true. So, in what way did he promote Judaism? Was it via the pagan temple he built for Augustus Caesar and Roma? Was it via the slaughter of the Pharisee sages, the spiritual leaders of the vast majority of the Jewish people? Was it via the heavy minimizing of the role of the Jewish High Priest to the point of near-mockery?


Because, to my knowledge, we do not have any source that states that he converted (and he was born two generations after the mass Edomite conversion, so he couldn't have been part of that), and we know that his mother was born an Arab princess: The question rests on whether his mother converted or not.

I myself am of the opinion that she did and Herod was properly Jewish - though more often than not he didn't act that way (but if it interests you, I can present some examples in which he did). He was properly Jewish because both of his parents were ethnically Jewish: His father was Jewish because his parents were part of the Edomite conversion, and his mother because she herself converted to Judaism. And that's how the Jewish ethnicity works.

"Herod was raised as a Jew."
Perowne, Stewart Henry (25 June 2015). "Herod - king of Judaea". Encyclopedia Britannica.
Herod at Encyclopædia Britannica: "...thus, Herod was, although a practicing Jew, of Arab origin on both sides."
Aryeh Kasher and Eliezer Witztum, King Herod: A Persecuted Persecutor: A Case Study in Psychohistory, pp 19-23
Jan Retsö,The Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads, Routledge (2013), p. 374
Richard R. Losch, All the People in the Bible, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing (2008), p. 155

This presentation should perhaps be considered with the evidence that Herod, as the historian L. L. Grabbe states, "lived as a Jew and generally respected Jewish religious law" and that, although there were undoubtedly some negative aspects to his reign, "His connections also allowed him to be useful to the Jews on several occasions, and on the whole his reign was beneficial to the Jewish people and religion"
Herod the Great

Got anything substantial to prove otherwise?

 

[Harel13]

"Herod was raised as a Jew."
Perowne, Stewart Henry (25 June 2015). "Herod - king of Judaea". Encyclopedia Britannica.
Herod at Encyclopædia Britannica: "...thus, Herod was, although a practicing Jew, of Arab origin on both sides."
Aryeh Kasher and Eliezer Witztum, King Herod: A Persecuted Persecutor: A Case Study in Psychohistory, pp 19-23
Jan Retsö,The Arabs in Antiquity: Their History from the Assyrians to the Umayyads, Routledge (2013), p. 374
Richard R. Losch, All the People in the Bible, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing (2008), p. 155

This presentation should perhaps be considered with the evidence that Herod, as the historian L. L. Grabbe states, "lived as a Jew and generally respected Jewish religious law" and that, although there were undoubtedly some negative aspects to his reign, "His connections also allowed him to be useful to the Jews on several occasions, and on the whole his reign was beneficial to the Jewish people and religion"

If I press on the link, will I be magically transported to a site that lists dozens if not more of occasions in which it was testified that Herod was raised as a Jew and lived the life of a practicing Jew?