The Failed Messiah Crusades

[crossfire]

I see no scientific evidence that Jewish is an ethnicity. It's a practice.

Part of this "practice" (or tradition rather) is that if your mother is a Jew then you are traditionally accepted as being a Jew.

 

[EtuMalku]

Part of this "practice" (or tradition rather) is that if your mother is a Jew then you are traditionally accepted as being a Jew.

That's a tradition, and it has absolutely no genetic validity whatsoever, there is no 'Jewish' ethnicity.

 

[blü 2]

Double Messiah fail?

It happens ...

 

[crossfire]

That's a tradition, and it has absolutely no genetic validity whatsoever, there is no 'Jewish' ethnicity.

"Ethnicity" isn't determined by genetics. Ethnicity is determined by culture and language.
What's the difference between race and ethnicity?

 

[firedragon]

Herod's father was the son of one of the Edomites forced to convert by the Hasmonean king John Hyrcanus. Herod's mother was an Arab princess. It's unclear just how legally Jewish Herod himself was. I myself have been pondering the subject recently. The forced conversion of the Edomites, and later, of the Itureans, while problematic in the first place, was eventually deemed acceptable, so Herod's paternal side was legally Jewish. However, the question comes down to whether Herod's mother was really Jewish, i.e., did she properly convert? It seems highly unlikely that prominent high-class Jewish families would wed their daughters to Herod (among his wives were Miriam of the House of the Hasmoneans and Miriam II, of the Boethusians), so more likely that he was considered Jewish.

Absolutely.

 

[firedragon]

He was born Arabic but was a practicing Jew.

Hmm. It seems strange that you say he was a practicing Jew. You mean he converted, but you dont know if he was practicing or if it was a political decision being a puppet king of the Roman rule machine.

 

[EtuMalku]

"Ethnicity" isn't determined by genetics. Ethnicity is determined by culture and language.
What's the difference between race and ethnicity?

"there's still an underlying assumption that traits like skin color or hair texture have biological, genetic underpinnings that are completely unique to different racial groups. Yet, the scientific basis for that premise simply isn't there."

"In other words, if you compare the genomes of people from different parts of the world, there are no genetic variants that occur in all members of one racial group but not in another."

"the racial groupings we have invented are actually genetically more similar to each other than they are different — meaning there's no way to definitively separate people into races according to their biology."

"Ethnicity and race are also irrevocably intertwined"
____________________________________________
Dr. Nina Jablonski
Anthropologist and Palaeobiologist (Pennsylvania State University)

What's the difference between race and ethnicity?

 

[EtuMalku]

Hmm. It seems strange that you say he was a practicing Jew. You mean he converted, but you dont know if he was practicing or if it was a political decision being a puppet king of the Roman rule machine.

Doesn't seem strange to me . . .

"Despite the negative evaluation of Herod in traditional Jewish sources, archaeological evidence seems to suggest that, with some notable exceptions, Herod saw himself as tied to the Jewish religion and tried, to a certain extent, to uphold its laws, even in his own lifestyle."
How Jewish Was Herod? - TheTorah.com

 

[viole]

The damage is to the soul that was aborted and thus never had a chance to live but I prefer not to go down that road on this forum.

So, no secular problem right? You have to believe in souls to have an issue, possibly.

and why do you mention something, if you then do not want to address it when challenged?

I prefer not to go down that road of sexual freedom. I do not believe it is good for society as a whole. The following quotes summarize the reasons I hold that opinion.

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex...'

This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File, pp. 364-365

“The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.”
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File, pp. 364-365

The following law is from Bahá'u'lláh's Book of Laws.

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

Again, no secular evidence. Just religious beliefs referring to beings whose evidence is as strong as the evidence for garden fairies, or invisible pink unicorns. . And again, what do you mean with “immorality”?

No, I do not arbitrarily define right and wrong. In my opinion and according to my beliefs God sets those standards through His Laws. See above.

As I said. Everything you say, concerning the possible evils of abortion, homosexuality, sexual freedom, etc. are contingent to your belief in God X, vs, God Y. They have no objective value.

how do you intend to defend your position in a secular society, like many in Europe for instance, in which God has zero value in order to determine what is better for that society?

ciao

- viole

 

[crossfire]

"there's still an underlying assumption that traits like skin color or hair texture have biological, genetic underpinnings that are completely unique to different racial groups. Yet, the scientific basis for that premise simply isn't there."

"In other words, if you compare the genomes of people from different parts of the world, there are no genetic variants that occur in all members of one racial group but not in another."

"the racial groupings we have invented are actually genetically more similar to each other than they are different — meaning there's no way to definitively separate people into races according to their biology."

"Ethnicity and race are also irrevocably intertwined"
____________________________________________
Dr. Nina Jablonski
Anthropologist and Palaeobiologist (Pennsylvania State University)

What's the difference between race and ethnicity?

Hahaha! Did you miss this part?

"These words are often used interchangeably, but technically, they're defined as separate things. "'Race' and 'ethnicity' have been and continue to be used as ways to describe human diversity," said Nina Jablonski, an anthropologist and palaeobiologist at The Pennsylvania State University, who is known for her research into the evolution of human skin color. "Race is understood by most people as a mixture of physical, behavioral and cultural attributes. Ethnicity recognizes differences between people mostly on the basis of language and shared culture."​

What part of "they are defined as separate things" don't you understand? Of course they are intertwined because both are cultivated through the family. This does not mean that the terms are interchangeable. Disproving genetic race does not disprove cultural ethnicity, because race and ethnicity each has a different basis for defining them.

 

[EtuMalku]

Hahaha! Did you miss this part?

"These words are often used interchangeably, but technically, they're defined as separate things. "'Race' and 'ethnicity' have been and continue to be used as ways to describe human diversity," said Nina Jablonski, an anthropologist and palaeobiologist at The Pennsylvania State University, who is known for her research into the evolution of human skin color. "Race is understood by most people as a mixture of physical, behavioral and cultural attributes. Ethnicity recognizes differences between people mostly on the basis of language and shared culture."​

What part of "they are defined as separate things" don't you understand? Of course they are intertwined because both are cultivated through the family. This does not mean that the terms are interchangeable. Disproving genetic race does not disprove cultural ethnicity, because race and ethnicity each has a different basis for defining them.

I would have hoped that, despite my choice of words, you were able to get the gist of what I was getting at instead of locking horns regarding semantics.

 

[firedragon]

Doesn't seem strange to me . . .

"Despite the negative evaluation of Herod in traditional Jewish sources, archaeological evidence seems to suggest that, with some notable exceptions, Herod saw himself as tied to the Jewish religion and tried, to a certain extent, to uphold its laws, even in his own lifestyle."
How Jewish Was Herod? - TheTorah.com

The Torah.com is a Jewish source. Why do you trust that source historically so much? There could be good reasons, but what are the reasons to trust is that much?

The New Testament is a Christian source. According to that, Herod murders innocent little babies all over the city. Is that very "practicing jewish nature"? If so please cite a Jewish source that says it is very jewish in nature, or if not, why not?

Do you trust both sources that much or do you just trust one?

Thanks.

 

[crossfire]

I would have hoped that, despite my choice of words, you were able to get the gist of what I was getting at instead of locking horns regarding semantics.

I see that you are still ignoring the point being made and that you have failed to uphold your claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, no secular problem right? You have to believe in souls to have an issue, possibly.

Or believe in the right to life.

and why do you mention something, if you then do not want to address it when challenged?

I do not recall that I brought up abortion or homosexuality.

Again, no secular evidence. Just religious beliefs referring to beings whose evidence is as strong as the evidence for garden fairies, or invisible pink unicorns. . And again, what do you mean with “immorality”?

No, no secular evidence, just belief in God.

As I said. Everything you say, concerning the possible evils of abortion, homosexuality, sexual freedom, etc. are contingent to your belief in God X, vs, God Y. They have no objective value.

Yes, it is dependent upon the One True God I believe in.

how do you intend to defend your position in a secular society, like many in Europe for instance, in which God has zero value in order to determine what is better for that society?

I do not intend to defend my position as I rarely even offer my opinion unsolicited.

Baha'is do not get involved in politics. We believe that the old world order is going to fall down and a new world order will rise in its stead. In the future there will be a new society, and when everyone believes in God life on earth will be a lot different than it is now, much better. People will have spiritual virtues and care about more than themselves and their physical desires.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You can of course believe whatever you want, the facts remain as I stated in my article. The entire messianic concept and the dying/resurrection idea came long before Yeshua. They are tools of the Abrahamic faiths.

What evidence is there that Baháʼu'lláh was a messiah? What prophecies did he fulfill?

The wolf and the lamb, that is the contending and antagonistic sects and peoples will live in peace. Proof = Baha’i World Community comprised of former Jew, Muslim, Christian Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, black and white, all nationalities and tribes. A cross section of the human race living in peace.

There are so many similar passages but the real proof is Baha’u’llah’s uniting influence to bring together those who were once enemies and make them as brothers and sisters.

THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. (Baha’u’llah)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see no scientific evidence that Jewish is an ethnicity. It's a practice.

You're welcome.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The following may help with the OP.

Davidic King/Mashiahh according to Torath Mosheh Sources

 

[viole]

Or believe in the right to life.

Which is, in this particular case, trumped by the right to choose.

Ciao

- viole