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The Fallacy of using classical fallacies

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are a long list of variously titled fallacies, most with fancy Latin names and some that are arguably equivalent, which are often used in debates. To name a few:

argumentum ad baculum
argumentum ad nauseam
argumentum ad populum
argumentum ad ignorantiam
argumentum ad misericordiam
argumentum ad hominem
ignoratio elenchi
petitio principia
tu quoque
argumentum ad verecundiam

etc. What virtually all these "fallacies" have in common is that they are not necessarily fallacies at all:

"A standard definition of a fallacy that was accepted until recently is that of 'an argument that seems to be valid but that is not valid.' During the last few decades, however, argumentation theorists have raised several important objections to this definition: 'Seems' involves an undesirable amount of subjectivity; 'validity' is incorrectly presented as an absolute and conclusive criterion; the definition ignores the fact that some well-known fallacies are valid by the terms of present-day logical standards; the definition restricts the scope of the concept of fallacies to patterns of reasoning, leading to the exclusion of a large number of recognized fallacies."

Van Eemeren, F. H., & Grootendorst, R. (2004). A systematic theory of argumentation: The pragma-dialectical approach. Cambridge University Press.


As a simple example, take evolution. I can use the argument from ignorance against any supporter of evolution. If falsifiability is to be a part of the philosophy of science, in that theories must be capable of being shown to be false, then for any theory that hasn't been shown to be false, it is necessarily true that there is potential contradictory evidence that has not yet been found. As such, any theory is an "Argument from ignorance...where 'ignorance' stands for: 'lack of evidence to the contrary'" (from wiki). That "lack of evidence to the contrary" is the basis for the scientific framework: we do not prove theories correct, we merely strengthen the reason to think so. Yet few would argue all research is necessarily just arguments from ignorance.

Nor is an appeal to authority always a fallacy. If I say global warming is false because a professor at Cambridge with 3 PhDs says so, but that professor has never really looked into the evidence, then my argument is clearly a fallacy. Most would argue that even if I point out that some of the foremost climate scientists in the world have argued that there is not sufficient evidence for AGW, I may not be appealing to authority in the same way, but I am appealing to it in a way that the other side can as well (and more so). Finally, if I argue that the consensus is that global warming is real, am I arguing from authority? Well, yes. I am certainly not giving any evidence. But consensus is formed on the basis of research. It may be (and I believe is) formed by other things as well, and the consensus can be (and has been) wrong, but an appeal to academic consensus is an appeal to the work of experts over time on all the evidence we currently have for any argument, theory, theoretical framework, etc., and thus implicitly to evidence.

Which leads naturally to another fallacy. Let's say I appeal to academic consensus on the historical Jesus and that instead of the usual "appeal to authority" reply, I my argument is met with an attempt to "poison the well", a fallacy which is basically argumentum ad homines, or "argument against the people". For example, people might say that historical Jesus scholars are mostly Christian and therefore biased. Ok, but it may be that biologists are all biased against religion, or that climate scientists are tree-hugging hippies. And while it is hard to show that Christian bias would make Christians tend to support a historical Jesus (after all, if Jesus was historical but never rose from the dead, then the fact that he was historical is moot; there's no basis for Christianity), I can easily point to evidence of potentially damaging bias in climate science. But is there sufficient evidence that if this bias exists it has thrown in question the consensus view and/or view as suspect the research behind it? That would require a good argument, and when appeals to consensus are met with claims that the consensus is biased, rarely is evidence offered, still less evidence that the alleged bias damages the evidence upon which the consensus is based.

But perhaps in reply to my argument from authority I might get a fallacy of definition: someone might point out that most historical Jesus researchers not "historians".

I give you the dept. of history at the distinguished University of Columbia. The link breaks down faculty by time period. You'll notice that the first period is "To 400" which means "any history up to the year 400 CE". There are 6 scholars. If we add on another ~1000 years, we get another 8 names. If we look at the 19th & 20th centuries, we get many times this number. On the face of it, it would seem that an ivy league university thinks human history isn't all that important until around the 19th century, and certainly that anything before 400 CE isn't worth much investigation.

The real reason that the list is so small is because most historians of pre-400 CE are not people with degrees in history an the history department works in tandem with departments and scholars like those responsible for most historical Jesus research. It simply is not true to say that because someone has a PhD in NT/Biblical studies, one is not a historian. This is a definitional fallacy.

But there are times when this holds. For example, many people with doctorates in e.g., classics are philologists or linguists, not historians. Likewise, a biblical scholar might actually be a theologian, trained in hermeneutics and other things rather than historical methods.

Yet even then, it is not necessarily true that this disqualifies such an individual. How do scholars become experts in some field? By researching that field and publishing in it. Rand R Wilcox, the author of 2 of the best intro stats textbooks (they're better than many graduate level stats textbooks), has a PhD in psychometrics, not statistics. Yet he is a statistician. All four of his textbooks are in statistics. He's an editorial board member of prestigious journals like Computational Statistics and Data Analysis, a member of both the American Statistical Association and the Institute of Mathematical Statistics, and author of innumerable peer-reviewed studies on statistics.

But not all who have published in a field are experts in it. There is a professor of mathematics at Brown whom I grew up near. He has published a book on dynamical systems (and has lectured on dynamical systems). It was because of this that I sought his advice some years ago (that was a research interest of mine). However, his knowledge of dynamical systems theory was based in his specialty: number theory. So my neighbor was peripherally knowledgeable about limited aspects of dynamical systems, and not an expert.

The line can be fuzzy.


As a last example of when a fallacy isn't a fallacy is simple: Someone can be the meanest, most insulting debater known to humanity, but have a sound argument. It becomes argumentum ad hominem if the arguments are based on the insults, or the arguments are insufficient by themselves. I can prove that the square root of 2 is irrational, an although it would add 100 steps to my proof, I can throw in 100 insults against the person who disagrees and still be correct.

So when is a fallacy a fallacy? For some, fallacies are fallacies and shaking a fist is one; but for such people, typically a fallacy need not invalidate an argument. This doesn't help us much, but it points to the heart of the matter: what is the argument? If it seems to correspond to some fallacy, classical or modern, does it do so in the way the fallacy is understood to invalidate the argument? For example, if I argue that someone who insults me is relying the fallacy argumentum ad hominem, the question is not whether they are insulting me but whether they are relying on insulting me. They might call me an idiot, say I have no clue, and even combine insults with other fallacies like "everyone knows this" or "only someone as uninformed as you" when talking to me, in an email, in a forum post, etc. (and they might be right, yet this is still not evidence for their position). But if, amongst all these insults, they offer a sound argument, then it doesn't matter how many insults they use (at least with respect to whether their argument is based on fallacies; violating forum rules, for example, is of course a separate but no less important matter).

Bottom line:

Before flying back at someone by accusing them of having committed some fallacy, try to determine 2 things:
1) What is it about this fallacy that makes it a fallacy
&
2) Is it this aspect upon which their argument is built, and if so in what way (i.e., if you were to try to reconstruct the same underlying logic but apply to something you agree with, might you yourself find it more convincing in that case)?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ah, the old argumentum obtedium!

I'm trying to become the textbook example of that particular fallacy (also called argumentum ad nauseating, winning by wordiness, etc.). My only ambition is that one day textbooks on critical thinking everywhere will have an entry on a fallacy "plura loquitur" or perhaps "reliance on jargon, verbosity, and tedium" and not only quote me, but include a picture with a brief biography in the margin, in a footnote, or in a similar sidebar.
 
Last edited:

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I took a short class in argumentation few years ago, and I remember one thing very well. The teacher explained that almost every claim we make can be argued to be a fallacy. Since then, I stopped using those terms and "attack by logic fallacy" fallacy. It's better (most of the time) to have a dialogue and reason a way to an agreement rather than pointing out ridiculous minor points. Sure, sometimes a fallacy is called for, but it's annoying when it becomes the only counter argument.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
The only true fallacy comes from when we apply a failed argument that holds no relevance to a subject.

Nothing is a fallacy altogether.

Much like how a Christian would say that everything created needs a creator. This is only a fallacy if you cannot prove that something is created.
The Christian may go on to explain that when we see a computer is it not created?
The best refutation to this "fallacy" is that, if there is a rock does it not have a creator?

There is a substantial about of subjective and objective evidences to provide fallacies for both arguments
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Now you've done it, Legion. Everyone on the Board is going to claim now that his or her own favorite fallacy is always an exception, never a real fallacy. :p
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now you've done it, Legion. Everyone on the Board is going to claim now that his or her own favorite fallacy is always an exception, never a real fallacy.

:eek: What have I done! Dear God, what have I done!?

On the other hand, if my track record has anything to it, few people will read it, fewer still will agree, and I will be safely ignored.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
:eek: What have I done! Dear God, what have I done!?
On the other hand, if my track record has anything to it, few people will read it, fewer still will agree, and I will be safely ignored.
Tis known as "argmentum arcanium".
(Arcanium is also an element, but is little known.)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tis known as "argmentum arcanium".
(Arcanium is also an element, but is little known.)
Yeah. It's like adamantium, right? Wolverine's toe nails are made out of it (argumentum ex arcana; not a bad ring to it).

Not this time. Your post was short enough to read. :)
Thanks! Although I'm pretty sure that means hell just froze over. Keep a look out for flying pigs as well.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There are a long list of variously titled fallacies, most with fancy Latin names and some that are arguably equivalent, which are often used in debates. To name a few:

argumentum ad baculum
argumentum ad nauseam
argumentum ad populum
argumentum ad ignorantiam
argumentum ad misericordiam
argumentum ad hominem
ignoratio elenchi
petitio principia
tu quoque
argumentum ad verecundiam

etc. What virtually all these "fallacies" have in common is that they are not necessarily fallacies at all:

"A standard definition of a fallacy that was accepted until recently is that of 'an argument that seems to be valid but that is not valid.' During the last few decades, however, argumentation theorists have raised several important objections to this definition: 'Seems' involves an undesirable amount of subjectivity; 'validity' is incorrectly presented as an absolute and conclusive criterion; the definition ignores the fact that some well-known fallacies are valid by the terms of present-day logical standards; the definition restricts the scope of the concept of fallacies to patterns of reasoning, leading to the exclusion of a large number of recognized fallacies."

Van Eemeren, F. H., & Grootendorst, R. (2004). A systematic theory of argumentation: The pragma-dialectical approach. Cambridge University Press.


As a simple example, take evolution. I can use the argument from ignorance against any supporter of evolution. If falsifiability is to be a part of the philosophy of science, in that theories must be capable of being shown to be false, then for any theory that hasn't been shown to be false, it is necessarily true that there is potential contradictory evidence that has not yet been found. As such, any theory is an "Argument from ignorance...where 'ignorance' stands for: 'lack of evidence to the contrary'" (from wiki). That "lack of evidence to the contrary" is the basis for the scientific framework: we do not prove theories correct, we merely strengthen the reason to think so. Yet few would argue all research is necessarily just arguments from ignorance.

Nor is an appeal to authority always a fallacy. If I say global warming is false because a professor at Cambridge with 3 PhDs says so, but that professor has never really looked into the evidence, then my argument is clearly a fallacy. Most would argue that even if I point out that some of the foremost climate scientists in the world have argued that there is not sufficient evidence for AGW, I may not be appealing to authority in the same way, but I am appealing to it in a way that the other side can as well (and more so). Finally, if I argue that the consensus is that global warming is real, am I arguing from authority? Well, yes. I am certainly not giving any evidence. But consensus is formed on the basis of research. It may be (and I believe is) formed by other things as well, and the consensus can be (and has been) wrong, but an appeal to academic consensus is an appeal to the work of experts over time on all the evidence we currently have for any argument, theory, theoretical framework, etc., and thus implicitly to evidence.

Which leads naturally to another fallacy. Let's say I appeal to academic consensus on the historical Jesus and that instead of the usual "appeal to authority" reply, I my argument is met with an attempt to "poison the well", a fallacy which is basically argumentum ad homines, or "argument against the people". For example, people might say that historical Jesus scholars are mostly Christian and therefore biased. Ok, but it may be that biologists are all biased against religion, or that climate scientists are tree-hugging hippies. And while it is hard to show that Christian bias would make Christians tend to support a historical Jesus (after all, if Jesus was historical but never rose from the dead, then the fact that he was historical is moot; there's no basis for Christianity), I can easily point to evidence of potentially damaging bias in climate science. But is there sufficient evidence that if this bias exists it has thrown in question the consensus view and/or view as suspect the research behind it? That would require a good argument, and when appeals to consensus are met with claims that the consensus is biased, rarely is evidence offered, still less evidence that the alleged bias damages the evidence upon which the consensus is based.

But perhaps in reply to my argument from authority I might get a fallacy of definition: someone might point out that most historical Jesus researchers not "historians".

I give you the dept. of history at the distinguished University of Columbia. The link breaks down faculty by time period. You'll notice that the first period is "To 400" which means "any history up to the year 400 CE". There are 6 scholars. If we add on another ~1000 years, we get another 8 names. If we look at the 19th & 20th centuries, we get many times this number. On the face of it, it would seem that an ivy league university thinks human history isn't all that important until around the 19th century, and certainly that anything before 400 CE isn't worth much investigation.

The real reason that the list is so small is because most historians of pre-400 CE are not people with degrees in history an the history department works in tandem with departments and scholars like those responsible for most historical Jesus research. It simply is not true to say that because someone has a PhD in NT/Biblical studies, one is not a historian. This is a definitional fallacy.

But there are times when this holds. For example, many people with doctorates in e.g., classics are philologists or linguists, not historians. Likewise, a biblical scholar might actually be a theologian, trained in hermeneutics and other things rather than historical methods.

Yet even then, it is not necessarily true that this disqualifies such an individual. How do scholars become experts in some field? By researching that field and publishing in it. Rand R Wilcox, the author of 2 of the best intro stats textbooks (they're better than many graduate level stats textbooks), has a PhD in psychometrics, not statistics. Yet he is a statistician. All four of his textbooks are in statistics. He's an editorial board member of prestigious journals like Computational Statistics and Data Analysis, a member of both the American Statistical Association and the Institute of Mathematical Statistics, and author of innumerable peer-reviewed studies on statistics.

But not all who have published in a field are experts in it. There is a professor of mathematics at Brown whom I grew up near. He has published a book on dynamical systems (and has lectured on dynamical systems). It was because of this that I sought his advice some years ago (that was a research interest of mine). However, his knowledge of dynamical systems theory was based in his specialty: number theory. So my neighbor was peripherally knowledgeable about limited aspects of dynamical systems, and not an expert.

The line can be fuzzy.


As a last example of when a fallacy isn't a fallacy is simple: Someone can be the meanest, most insulting debater known to humanity, but have a sound argument. It becomes argumentum ad hominem if the arguments are based on the insults, or the arguments are insufficient by themselves. I can prove that the square root of 2 is irrational, an although it would add 100 steps to my proof, I can throw in 100 insults against the person who disagrees and still be correct.

So when is a fallacy a fallacy? For some, fallacies are fallacies and shaking a fist is one; but for such people, typically a fallacy need not invalidate an argument. This doesn't help us much, but it points to the heart of the matter: what is the argument? If it seems to correspond to some fallacy, classical or modern, does it do so in the way the fallacy is understood to invalidate the argument? For example, if I argue that someone who insults me is relying the fallacy argumentum ad hominem, the question is not whether they are insulting me but whether they are relying on insulting me. They might call me an idiot, say I have no clue, and even combine insults with other fallacies like "everyone knows this" or "only someone as uninformed as you" when talking to me, in an email, in a forum post, etc. (and they might be right, yet this is still not evidence for their position). But if, amongst all these insults, they offer a sound argument, then it doesn't matter how many insults they use (at least with respect to whether their argument is based on fallacies; violating forum rules, for example, is of course a separate but no less important matter).

Bottom line:

Before flying back at someone by accusing them of having committed some fallacy, try to determine 2 things:
1) What is it about this fallacy that makes it a fallacy
&
2) Is it this aspect upon which their argument is built, and if so in what way (i.e., if you were to try to reconstruct the same underlying logic but apply to something you agree with, might you yourself find it more convincing in that case)?
According to Revoltipedia......
Informal fallacy - A fancy (particularly if said in Latin) way of saying, "You're wrong! I'm right because logic!".
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't know as to why people cannot talk in simple ways. If they are really educated they should know how to make things simple and understandable.

Being educated is basically having learned something. Having good didactics is a somewhat more specific set of skills.

Even then, some subjects just aren't very simple even if one attempts to avoid exceptions and specifics.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
There are a long list of variously titled fallacies, most with fancy Latin names and some that are arguably equivalent, which are often used in debates. To name a few:

argumentum ad baculum
argumentum ad nauseam
argumentum ad populum
argumentum ad ignorantiam
argumentum ad misericordiam
argumentum ad hominem
ignoratio elenchi
petitio principia
tu quoque
argumentum ad verecundiam

etc. What virtually all these "fallacies" have in common is that they are not necessarily fallacies at all:

"A standard definition of a fallacy that was accepted until recently is that of 'an argument that seems to be valid but that is not valid.' During the last few decades, however, argumentation theorists have raised several important objections to this definition: 'Seems' involves an undesirable amount of subjectivity; 'validity' is incorrectly presented as an absolute and conclusive criterion; the definition ignores the fact that some well-known fallacies are valid by the terms of present-day logical standards; the definition restricts the scope of the concept of fallacies to patterns of reasoning, leading to the exclusion of a large number of recognized fallacies."

Van Eemeren, F. H., & Grootendorst, R. (2004). A systematic theory of argumentation: The pragma-dialectical approach. Cambridge University Press.


As a simple example, take evolution. I can use the argument from ignorance against any supporter of evolution. If falsifiability is to be a part of the philosophy of science, in that theories must be capable of being shown to be false, then for any theory that hasn't been shown to be false, it is necessarily true that there is potential contradictory evidence that has not yet been found. As such, any theory is an "Argument from ignorance...where 'ignorance' stands for: 'lack of evidence to the contrary'" (from wiki). That "lack of evidence to the contrary" is the basis for the scientific framework: we do not prove theories correct, we merely strengthen the reason to think so. Yet few would argue all research is necessarily just arguments from ignorance.

Nor is an appeal to authority always a fallacy. If I say global warming is false because a professor at Cambridge with 3 PhDs says so, but that professor has never really looked into the evidence, then my argument is clearly a fallacy. Most would argue that even if I point out that some of the foremost climate scientists in the world have argued that there is not sufficient evidence for AGW, I may not be appealing to authority in the same way, but I am appealing to it in a way that the other side can as well (and more so). Finally, if I argue that the consensus is that global warming is real, am I arguing from authority? Well, yes. I am certainly not giving any evidence. But consensus is formed on the basis of research. It may be (and I believe is) formed by other things as well, and the consensus can be (and has been) wrong, but an appeal to academic consensus is an appeal to the work of experts over time on all the evidence we currently have for any argument, theory, theoretical framework, etc., and thus implicitly to evidence.

Which leads naturally to another fallacy. Let's say I appeal to academic consensus on the historical Jesus and that instead of the usual "appeal to authority" reply, I my argument is met with an attempt to "poison the well", a fallacy which is basically argumentum ad homines, or "argument against the people". For example, people might say that historical Jesus scholars are mostly Christian and therefore biased. Ok, but it may be that biologists are all biased against religion, or that climate scientists are tree-hugging hippies. And while it is hard to show that Christian bias would make Christians tend to support a historical Jesus (after all, if Jesus was historical but never rose from the dead, then the fact that he was historical is moot; there's no basis for Christianity), I can easily point to evidence of potentially damaging bias in climate science. But is there sufficient evidence that if this bias exists it has thrown in question the consensus view and/or view as suspect the research behind it? That would require a good argument, and when appeals to consensus are met with claims that the consensus is biased, rarely is evidence offered, still less evidence that the alleged bias damages the evidence upon which the consensus is based.

But perhaps in reply to my argument from authority I might get a fallacy of definition: someone might point out that most historical Jesus researchers not "historians".

I give you the dept. of history at the distinguished University of Columbia. The link breaks down faculty by time period. You'll notice that the first period is "To 400" which means "any history up to the year 400 CE". There are 6 scholars. If we add on another ~1000 years, we get another 8 names. If we look at the 19th & 20th centuries, we get many times this number. On the face of it, it would seem that an ivy league university thinks human history isn't all that important until around the 19th century, and certainly that anything before 400 CE isn't worth much investigation.

The real reason that the list is so small is because most historians of pre-400 CE are not people with degrees in history an the history department works in tandem with departments and scholars like those responsible for most historical Jesus research. It simply is not true to say that because someone has a PhD in NT/Biblical studies, one is not a historian. This is a definitional fallacy.

But there are times when this holds. For example, many people with doctorates in e.g., classics are philologists or linguists, not historians. Likewise, a biblical scholar might actually be a theologian, trained in hermeneutics and other things rather than historical methods.

Yet even then, it is not necessarily true that this disqualifies such an individual. How do scholars become experts in some field? By researching that field and publishing in it. Rand R Wilcox, the author of 2 of the best intro stats textbooks (they're better than many graduate level stats textbooks), has a PhD in psychometrics, not statistics. Yet he is a statistician. All four of his textbooks are in statistics. He's an editorial board member of prestigious journals like Computational Statistics and Data Analysis, a member of both the American Statistical Association and the Institute of Mathematical Statistics, and author of innumerable peer-reviewed studies on statistics.

But not all who have published in a field are experts in it. There is a professor of mathematics at Brown whom I grew up near. He has published a book on dynamical systems (and has lectured on dynamical systems). It was because of this that I sought his advice some years ago (that was a research interest of mine). However, his knowledge of dynamical systems theory was based in his specialty: number theory. So my neighbor was peripherally knowledgeable about limited aspects of dynamical systems, and not an expert.

The line can be fuzzy.


As a last example of when a fallacy isn't a fallacy is simple: Someone can be the meanest, most insulting debater known to humanity, but have a sound argument. It becomes argumentum ad hominem if the arguments are based on the insults, or the arguments are insufficient by themselves. I can prove that the square root of 2 is irrational, an although it would add 100 steps to my proof, I can throw in 100 insults against the person who disagrees and still be correct.

So when is a fallacy a fallacy? For some, fallacies are fallacies and shaking a fist is one; but for such people, typically a fallacy need not invalidate an argument. This doesn't help us much, but it points to the heart of the matter: what is the argument? If it seems to correspond to some fallacy, classical or modern, does it do so in the way the fallacy is understood to invalidate the argument? For example, if I argue that someone who insults me is relying the fallacy argumentum ad hominem, the question is not whether they are insulting me but whether they are relying on insulting me. They might call me an idiot, say I have no clue, and even combine insults with other fallacies like "everyone knows this" or "only someone as uninformed as you" when talking to me, in an email, in a forum post, etc. (and they might be right, yet this is still not evidence for their position). But if, amongst all these insults, they offer a sound argument, then it doesn't matter how many insults they use (at least with respect to whether their argument is based on fallacies; violating forum rules, for example, is of course a separate but no less important matter).

Bottom line:

Before flying back at someone by accusing them of having committed some fallacy, try to determine 2 things:
1) What is it about this fallacy that makes it a fallacy
&
2) Is it this aspect upon which their argument is built, and if so in what way (i.e., if you were to try to reconstruct the same underlying logic but apply to something you agree with, might you yourself find it more convincing in that case)?
That's a whole lot of words to describe the argument from fallacy... fallacy.
I disagree with one bit though, and I might just be arguing semantics here, but an argument isn't validated if the conclusion happens to be true. The argument still may be a fallacy, and the conclusion can be true despite the fallacy.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I disagree with one bit though, and I might just be arguing semantics here, but an argument isn't validated if the conclusion happens to be true. The argument still may be a fallacy, and the conclusion can be true despite the fallacy.
I don't think you disagree (I had to reread what I wrote, as I wrote that post in 2013). A key issue is the word "happens" in "happens to be true." It's true that I can argue e.g.,
1) All men are mortal | Premise
2) Men are dogs | Premise
3) Socrates is mortal | Invalid inference from 1 & 2

I've simply replaced the classical line in the syllogism ("Socrates is a man") with something entirely different, making the conclusion invalid but it "happens to be true." This is distinct from the problem I refer to when I say that a fallacy need not invalidate an argument. I'm not saying that the individual who commits a so-called fallacy is validated if they "happen to be right", but if either
1) the fallacy is not needed for the otherwise sound argument (e.g., an ad hominem attack never supports an argument, but if your argument is valid and sound without the ad hominem, it will remain valid and sound with it; it's just plain mean and usually wrong too).
or
2) The "fallacy" isn't really a fallacy. Appealing to authority is the backbone of scientific and indeed scholarly progress. We recognize authoritative sources (experts) all the time, even when we are experts, so that we need not all of us reinvent the wheel (or reconstruct PIE, or in general reproduce work already done rather than build off of it or use it). The "appeal to authority" fallacy originally referred to the practice of citing "real" authority figures such as the Pope (or church), King, etc.; basically, people whose words were taken as law. But it is equally fallacious to claim that one physicist's opinion should be deemed fact, or a genius mathematician is qualified, simply by being really smart and good at math, to tell us about morality. Citing a body like the IPCC in support of one's position on climate change is not fallacious (it doesn't make one necessarily right, of course, because the consensus can certainly be wrong, but it is not a fallacy). Likewise, citations of authoritative literature are not only not fallacies, they're how we have academic/technical literature in the first place.

My point was that people know the names of classical fallacies and will often act as if they are logical fallacies (e.g., invalid use of inferences or misuse of modus ponens or whatever) that are necessarily, generically "wrong." In fact, just about all such fallacies can be key components of a good argument or at least not invalidate an argument if (in this second case) the argument doesn't depend upon the "fallacy". So if my argument is sound, and I add to it the statement "besides, every schoolboy knows...) my argument remains sound, I've just added an idiotic statement to it that doesn't support it (but doesn't render it false, either).
Does that make sense? It's much longer than I anticipated.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
2) The "fallacy" isn't really a fallacy.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I pretty much agree with everything you said, but this quote.
A fallacy is still a fallacy regardless of the veracity of the assertion. There are certainly differing degrees of how fallacious a fallacy might be, like citing a trusted expert in a subject doesn't prove anything about that subject, it simply means it's worth a closer look. Citing an authoritative source is a fallacy and by itself doesn't prove or disprove an argument, although it would be foolish to dismiss it out of hand simply because it's technically a fallacy.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A fallacy is still a fallacy regardless of the veracity of the assertion.
True. The issue is that "classical fallacies" (such as "appeal to authority") can be structural or otherwise generalized such that there form is identical to a non-fallacious inference, non-fallacious component of some argument, or otherwise generally (and simply) not fallacious. For example, here is an appeal to authority about ad hominem fallacies:
"Because they are so powerful and dangerous, ad hominem arguments have often been treated in the past as fallacious. Their use in negative campaign tactics in political argumentation is notorious. But they can sometimes be reasonable arguments. For example, in legal argumentation in a trial, it can be legitimate for a cross-examining attorney to question the ethical character of a witness. The lawyer may even argue that the witness has lied in the past and use this argument to raise questions about his character for honesty. But before we can evaluate such ad hominem arguments, it is necessary to know what form they take."
Walton, D. (2006). Fundamentals Of Critical Argumentation (Critical Reasoning and Argumentation). Cambridge University Press.

And to justify this use of appeal to authority, here's circular reasoning by way of an appeal to authority about how appeal to authority need not be fallacious:

"To find reasoning fallacies, keep in mind what kinds of reasons are good reasons—that is, the evidence and the moral principles relevant to the issue. Reasoning should be rejected whenever you have found mistaken assumptions, distractions, or support for the conclusion that already assumes the truth of the conclusion. Reasoning should be approached cautiously when it appeals to group-approved attitudes and to authority. You should always ask, "Are there good reasons to consider such appeals as persuasive evidence?" A precautionary note is in order here: Do not automatically reject reasoning that relies on appeals to authority or group-approved attitudes. Carefully evaluate such reasoning. For example, if most physicians in the country choose to take up jogging, that information is important to consider in deciding whether jogging is beneficial. Some authorities do possess valuable information." (italics original; emphasis added)
Browne, M. N. & Keeley, S. M. (2007). Asking the Right Questions: A Guide to Critical Thinking (8th Ed.). Pearson Education.

The point is that many of these fallacies can be fallacies, but need not be. Accepting a fairly general (and unhelpful) definition of fallacies as those arguments which seem right (or valid, or sound) but are not, the problem with pointing to classical fallacies isn't that fallacies aren't fallacies, but that many so-called fallacies are only actually fallacious in context. Thus identifying them by form or nature alone (according to various lists of fallacies like ignorantio elenchi, "every schoolboy knows", ad nauseum, argumentum ad populum, petitio principii, ad hominem, etc., is useless and pointless. It is only by knowing how such would-be convincing arguments can be fallacious that one can identify when they in fact are.

There are certainly differing degrees of how fallacious a fallacy might be, like citing a trusted expert in a subject doesn't prove anything about that subject
Proof is for mathematics. It is generally impossible to provide proof of anything. The exception is merely when we relax "proof" to mean "proof to differing degrees of certainty." If I can't rely on axioms or inference rules as I can in analysis, mathematical logic, or formal systems more generally, then any proof rests upon assumptions that must be granted to be true. Any informal discourse universe (i.e., anything outside mathematics) requires appeals to various kinds of authority, assumptions, subjectivity, and so on whether we are dealing with experiments in particle physics or arguing over the nature of fallacies.
Citing trusted experts is how you are able to use the machines you do to argue that this doesn't prove anything. It is the foundation for academic, intellectual, and scientific progress. No, it doesn't "prove" anything, unless of course you mean "proof by all reasonable standards." Otherwise, I would have to ask you to replicate all scientific studies ever performed necessary to demonstrate without appeals to authority that e.g., evolutionary theory, basic physiology, or really much of anything regarded as "fact" thanks to decades or centuries of clear and repeated demonstrations is anything other than fallacious appeals to authority. And, while you are at it, prove you aren't in the Matrix. :)

Citing an authoritative source is a fallacy and by itself doesn't prove or disprove an argument
That's because this is impossible generally. An argument is wrong if isn't valid, which is a syntactical issue, but arguments are not generally easily reduced to syntax (to logical validity). Soundness requires arguments to be both valid and true, but truth cannot be proven.
The following is an absolutely valid argument:
1) Appeals to authority are always right | Premise
2) I am the only authority | Premise
3) Arguments which are right appeal to me | Conclusion

This is a logically valid argument. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with it logically. It's also a clearly and ludicrously false argument, but this isn't because it is fallacious. It's because the premises are plainly and obviously wrong. The problem is that you cannot ever prove these premises are wrong. There is no procedure, no "truth table", no process of experimentation that could possibly "prove" that 1) or 2) above are not true. Sure, you can "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" that they are not true, but immediately you leave the realm of actual proof and enter one in which vague, arbitrary cut-offs like "reasonable" dictate what is or isn't considered proof.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I used to be quite bad for this kind of behaviour. The I studied a wee bit of logic. And now I'm smugger than ever!

I don't really notice so much of the accusations of informal fallacy being chucked about these days. Maybe I skim over them.
 
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