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The first cause argument

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
"Time" might well be a product of this universe.
It is a product of this universe.
At least, our measure of time, as in definition.

However, there exists something called "philosophical time" whose definition is not defined in physical terms.

..just to confuse matters further ;)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Time" might well be a product of this universe.

It's still in time (universe) and temporal. If all parts of temporary, and it won't come to be, unless something brings it to be, then it would never come to existence. This is obvious for a finite chain, but for infinite chain, you just inductively reason through it, they are all saying they won't come to be unless something else preceding me says come to be, and this will go on forever, with no start. So they are all temporary yet infinite would mean part of it is eternal and always been there, but this is not true. So you prove two ways by induction and by contradiction, that it needs a cause outside itself.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Also if a whole thing is made of water, it's not fallacy of composition to say it's water. Same here, if the whole thing is all effects, the thing is an effect. Thus in need of a cause.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It is a product of this universe.
At least, our measure of time, as in definition.

However, there exists something called "philosophical time" whose definition is not defined in physical terms.

..just to confuse matters further ;)

That is the function of philosophy
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
The "God was always there" argument?
i didn't use the term god. implying i did is a falsehood.

again the law of conservation is broken; unless the universe is self-perpetuating. now whether there is consciousness involved, that is another aspect of discussion
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Coming in late as usual because of where I live

P1: Every being that has a beginning has a cause for its beginning.
P2: The universe has a beginning.
C : Thus its "possesses" a cause for its beginning.

This is not a science experiment. This is a philosophical argument.

Personally I don't find abstract philosophy very useful in this case. And when speaking of causality, it's basically impossible for me to consider any philosophical argument that ignores science as you are asking for here.

The closest I can come is to consider that there is a risk of a logical fallacy in the proposition: post hoc ergo propter hoc - Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X.

Because there is no tie in the OP to the real world but only to the world of philosophy, knowing that something has a cause is valueless because there is no way we can know what that cause is without science, religion or spiritual experience.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
We getting to sophistry here.
Not true. The rate of change may not even be consistent, depending on the relative state of the thing that is changing. How does "time" even factor in at that point? Your marking of time may need to be adapted, because it doesn't fit the conditions of the model you are observing any longer. Which would most certainly mean that "time" is nothing more than a device of measurement. A measure of the rate of changes occurring. Again... the change is constant (but not, necessarily, the rate). It is time that is then only a perception. It has nothing to do with what is actually and truly "happening."

Think of it this way: Someone tells you that nothing can happen without the "time" it takes for the thing to happen. But couldn't this be rephrased, and be just as logical-sounding: "Nothing can happen without the changes occurring to have made it happen."? Regardless how much "time" (again, an observer's measure) is involved... the change is what is even more fundamental in that line of thinking.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The first cause argument is simply a logical premise by premise argument.

P1: Every being that has a beginning has a cause for its beginning.
P2: The universe has a beginning.
C : Thus its "possesses" a cause for its beginning.

Why is this a valid argument that there is a first cause?

Its a logical argument that banks on logical pondering based on exactly what is concisely explained in the argument itself. To elaborate or expand on it, philosophers argue that every being is contingent, which means this being can exist in other ways, contingent upon something else, and that "something else or other being" has a beginning, and if that being is contingent, it would be contingent upon something else. This will go on forever and ends up in an infinite regression. Thus the conclusion is that the universe has a beginning. Now it has to be applied to the argument above.

In your premises, you have not established either P! or P2 to be true. So while the argument *form* is sound, the specifics need more detail to see if they are valid.

In the paragraph following, you have merely showed that either
1. There is an infinite regression of causes
or
2. There is an uncaused cause.

You have NOT shown that there is only *one* uncaused cause. So there is a possibility that there is more than one, many, or even infinitely many.

You have also not shown that an infinite regress is impossible.

So, as a proof that there is a *first* cause, this argument fails to establish its goal.

This is why the first cause argument is a valid argument for a first cause.
No, it is not. it failed to show that an infinite regress is impossible AND it failed to show there is only one uncaused cause.

Next, you fail to deal with the fact that causes form a branching structure, not a single line. As such, you need to show all branches ultimately converge on a single 'first cause'. This is not done, nor is the issue even addressed.

In its primitive nature this argument is not arguing for a God which carries a lot of baggage and immediately everyone goes into a top down argument. Thus God is a completely separate argument, which is addressed by the Kalam cosmological argument philosophically, it its not the scope of this thread.

Agreed. The first cause argument need not apply to any deities.

In fact, we know of *many* uncaused causes (most quantum level events are such) AND there is no reason to think that an infinite regress is excluded.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
To elaborate or expand on it, philosophers argue that every being is contingent, which means this being can exist in other ways, contingent upon something else, and that "something else or other being" has a beginning, and if that being is contingent, it would be contingent upon something else. This will go on forever and ends up in an infinite regression.

That is infinite regression.

OK. So why is that impossible?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I would like to think that the first cause argument is known practically by everyone in this forum. So its nothing new. This comes with a request so this is honouring that request.

The first cause argument is one of the cosmological arguments. Many have posited various arguments in history and the most prominent argument is of the philosopher Imam Ghazali. One of the significant differences between two of the philosophers in this topic, Avicenna and Ghazali is that Ghazali sticks to one single or fundamental first cause argument which has separated other cosmological arguments from his Kalam argument but Avicenna makes one Kalam argument with the contingency argument as well, and he seems to take a pragmatic school of thought.

Simply put, every originated thing has an originator, and since the world is originated, it has an originator. This would argue that if its "first cause" argument on the table, that goes into validating the first cause, and the God argument is a separate argument from the first cause argument and is not the topic at hand.

The first cause argument is simply a logical premise by premise argument.

P1: Every being that has a beginning has a cause for its beginning.
P2: The universe has a beginning.
C : Thus its "possesses" a cause for its beginning.

Why is this a valid argument that there is a first cause?

Its a logical argument that banks on logical pondering based on exactly what is concisely explained in the argument itself. To elaborate or expand on it, philosophers argue that every being is contingent, which means this being can exist in other ways, contingent upon something else, and that "something else or other being" has a beginning, and if that being is contingent, it would be contingent upon something else. This will go on forever and ends up in an infinite regression. Thus the conclusion is that the universe has a beginning. Now it has to be applied to the argument above.

This is why the first cause argument is a valid argument for a first cause. In its primitive nature this argument is not arguing for a God which carries a lot of baggage and immediately everyone goes into a top down argument. Thus God is a completely separate argument, which is addressed by the Kalam cosmological argument philosophically, it its not the scope of this thread.

Peace.

As I wrote this reply, I realized that you gave me a great deal of food for thought. It was very thought provoking to consider the idea of an infinite past.

"every originated thing has an originator" (proof?????)

If you start with a false premise, you might reach a false conclusion. By the way, I don't know if that is a false premise. But, it appears to be a premise that cannot be proven.

The real question is what originated the very first thing.

"the God argument is a separate argument from the first cause argument and is not the topic"

I don't understand, if God is not the originator, who made the universe? If God was the originator, now you have to figure out who made God. Some say that God made himself. Couldn't we just as easily say that the universe made itself, and cut out the middle man (God)? You are saying that instead of a long line of Gods creating Gods, maybe there was just one event in which the universe was formed.

The atheist alternative is that every originated thing doesn't have an originator (no entity making things), but it sprung into existence.

Somehow it is not very satisfying to think of the universe springing into existence from nothing, and not very satisfying to think of God making the universe and somehow God was made. The alternative, that you presented, is that somehow it was all created at once. Which, I believe, is the Big Bang theory. But one has to ponder how and why it banged, and what was there before.

New theories of the origin of the universe are coming from Astrophysics. Some argue, now, that the universe was never a singularity, but rather it started as a plasma ball.

I wonder if perhaps spacetime wrapped around on itself, making the future the past. This would be consistent with the bible's alpha and omega idea (the beginning and the end are the same).

I wonder if perhaps matter from outside of the universe could come in? In a Black Hole, mass can enter, but, except for Black Hole evaporation, no mass can leave it. Even if it evaporated, it would be just outside of the event horizon and there is really only one way for it to go (get sucked back in).

I believe that the universe is pretty close to being a black hole, in that nothing can escape it. But, I think that recent calculations show that it doesn't have enough mass to do that. Furthermore, it is accelerating and already the metric is going apart at faster than the speed of light....a feat impossible if traveling across the metric, but quite possible, and actually happening because of the expanding metric of space and the acceleration of that expansion.

"Infinite Past." Hmm.....time slows in very powerful gravitational fields. And, what could be more powerful than the gravitational field of all of the mass in the universe before the big bang? Clearly, time would have slowed to zero (time stopped). If time stopped, it would be impossible for the expansion of the universe to happen. So, maybe the universe was never at a point where the force of gravity was so strong that time slowed to a complete stop?

The "infinite past" might be a result of time slowing to a crawl. Furthermore, if the universe was collapsing, further and further, the gravitational field would have become more intense at the surface. Thus, time would slow even more.

Under these conditions of slowed time, just what could have caused the big bang?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It is absolutely not like the infinite hotel.

Yes, actually, it is. The Hilbert Hotel is a demonstration of the possibility of infinite regress. There is no contradiction in that concept.

This is not a science experiment. This is a philosophical argument. .

And the philosophical argument fails because the premises it uses are not substantiated. And, in fact, the first is known to be false and the second is likely to be invalid for a number of philosophical AND scientific reasons.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
OK. So why is that impossible?
I don't think that it is impossible to have an infinite regression of a lot of Gods creating Gods, but, the notion is unproven, and has no reason to believe it.

The creation of the universe, currently, is an unanswered question, but, we are closing in on the details shortly after the big bang, and there is some evidence that the singularity never existed (new research papers).

I think that a lot of atheists would be surprised to look in a telescope and see a giant eyeball staring back.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Thats the absolutely fundamental of this argument in the OP. You have absolutely confirmed the argument.

No, it shows that the argument doesn't deal with a logical possibility.

You need to show that there can be no infinite regress. Such regresses will not have a start: they will 'always be going'.

Your *assumption* that there needs to be a start to everything is one that needs to be validated.
 
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