The First Cause was not God.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nope!
Magic is slight of hand....a play against your perceptions.

Miracles are a change is reality that cannot readily be explained.

So in the unique version of English you're using, if a real-life wizard cast a real spell that had real effects with no sleight of hand involved, you would say that it wasn't magic?

If so, I think we can safely disregard your opinion here.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

What do you mean by this? What problem?

The problem of infinite regression.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Whatever caused God would be an earlier "cause" than God or anything caused by God.

It is not possible to "cause" a necessary being to come in to existence.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The problem of infinite regression.

What good is your God if he has no ability interact? Therefore, interaction is fundamental, not God. That interaction is the driving force behind all change and transformation. Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, only change form so everything that exists now has always existed in some form. That form is Potential. Even in nothingness there is the Potential for everything.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

What good is your God if he has no ability interact?

Um, who said anything about my God not having the ability to interact?

Therefore, interaction is fundamental, not God. That interaction is the driving force behind all change and transformation.

Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, only change form so everything that exists now has always existed in some form.

That is the first law of thermodynamics, which only comes in to play AFTER the universe began to exist. Second, matter could not have been changing forms since past-eternity. The concept is logically incoherent.

That form is Potential. Even in nothingness there is the Potential for everything.

A statement with no basis whatsoever.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Um, who said anything about my God not having the ability to interact?







That is the first law of thermodynamics, which only comes in to play AFTER the universe began to exist. Second, matter could not have been changing forms since past-eternity. The concept is logically incoherent.



A statement with no basis whatsoever.

What I am saying is that ability to interact is the most important part, not God. The First Cause was a natural force or interaction, not a magical being. Your entire belief in a magical, all-powerful, all-knowing being has no logical basis.

 

[Thief]

What I am saying is that ability to interact is the most important part, not God. The First Cause was a natural force or interaction, not a magical being. Your entire belief in a magical, all-powerful, all-knowing being has no logical basis.

There is no magic in the creation.
Magic is a trick of magicians against your perceptions.

Creation is real....and Someone had to be First.

I place Spirit before creation.

Substance cannot beget the living.

 

[Thief]

So in the unique version of English you're using, if a real-life wizard cast a real spell that had real effects with no sleight of hand involved, you would say that it wasn't magic?

If so, I think we can safely disregard your opinion here.

If ever you meet Someone that can walk on water and raise the dead.....
maybe your sense of disregard would be inappropriate.

If your sense of disregard cannot be controlled.....
then maybe you should gain some distance.

 

[Runewolf1973]

There is no magic in the creation.
Magic is a trick of magicians against your perceptions.

Creation is real....and Someone had to be First.

I place Spirit before creation.

Substance cannot beget the living.

Why someone? Why not something?
Why creation? Why not change/transformation?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is not possible to "cause" a necessary being to come in to existence.

Is it possible for a being to be necessary? If so, please explain your reasoning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If ever you meet Someone that can walk on water and raise the dead.....
maybe your sense of disregard would be inappropriate.

If your sense of disregard cannot be controlled.....
then maybe you should gain some distance.

I'm not disregarding Jesus; I'm disregarding you.

If that happened, though, and I was able to confirm that there was no trickery involved, I might be inclined to call it a real case of magic.

 

[Ouroboros]

I think both David Blane and Criss Angel walked on water too.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Is it possible for a being to be necessary? If so, please explain your reasoning.

The concept of God is logically coherent. Anything that is logically coherent is possible, unless you can show how the existence of such a being defies logical reasoning, then you must admit that the existence of God is at least possible. You may not want God to exist, or believe that he exists, but you cannot deny that God's existence is at least possible, and if not, then please explain why.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The concept of God is logically coherent. Anything that is logically coherent is possible, unless you can show how the existence of such a being defies logical reasoning, then you must admit that the existence of God is at least possible. You may not want God to exist, or believe that he exists, but you cannot deny that God's existence is at least possible, and if not, then please explain why.

God is supposed to be a "creator". He created the heavens and the Earth and living creatures out of nothing by speaking them into existence. This is logically impossible because the Earth, the stars, life forms, and everything else known to exist consist of energy. Energy cannot be created, it can only change form. The entire bible story of creation is just that...a story. There is nothing scientific or logical about it. Nothing was ever created, it only changed form.

 

[Sonofason]

Regardless, it's an accurate description. The only difference between "miracle" and "magic" is perspective.

You're wrong.

There is no such thing as magic.
Magic:
"a power that allows people (such as witches and wizards) to do impossible things by saying special words or performing special actions."

It is impossible to do impossible things.

"an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source"

There is no such thing as supernatural. If it exists, it exists quite naturally. Nothing that exists, exists supernaturally.
Magic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Miracle:
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"

Extraordinary is not impossible. God exists. He does so quite naturally. God does intervene in human affairs.

"an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle

Miracles are caused by the power of God.
magic doesn't exist.

But then again. Satan has powers as well. Perhaps he can empower individuals to perform seemingly impossible extraordinary actions as well. But since the source of that power is not God, it is not a miracle. We could I suppose call that magic.

Oh darn, it looks like I just contradicted myself. Oh well, such is life.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You're wrong.

There is no such thing as magic.
Magic:
"a power that allows people (such as witches and wizards) to do impossible things by saying special words or performing special actions."

It is impossible to do impossible things.

"an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source"

There is no such thing as supernatural. If it exists, it exists quite naturally. Nothing that exists, exists supernaturally.
Magic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Miracle:
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"

Extraordinary is not impossible. God exists. He does so quite naturally. God does intervene in human affairs.

"an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God"
Miracle - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Miracles are caused by the power of God.
magic doesn't exist.

But then again. Satan has powers as well. Perhaps he can empower individuals to perform seemingly impossible extraordinary actions as well. But since the source of that power is not God, it is not a miracle. We could I suppose call that magic.

Oh darn, it looks like I just contradicted myself. Oh well, such is life.

God apparently spoke special words to perform special actions...."Let there be light!"

 

[Thief]

God apparently spoke special words to perform special actions...."Let there be light!"

I've been posting this for years....
Have you been reading my stuff?
or have you draw this conclusion on your own?

All this discussion and this point of agreement has been overlooked?

 

[Thief]

I'm not disregarding Jesus; I'm disregarding you.

If that happened, though, and I was able to confirm that there was no trickery involved, I might be inclined to call it a real case of magic.

A real case of miracle.

 

[Thief]

You're wrong.

There is no such thing as magic.
Magic:
"a power that allows people (such as witches and wizards) to do impossible things by saying special words or performing special actions."

It is impossible to do impossible things.

"an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source"

There is no such thing as supernatural. If it exists, it exists quite naturally. Nothing that exists, exists supernaturally.
Magic - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Miracle:
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"

Extraordinary is not impossible. God exists. He does so quite naturally. God does intervene in human affairs.

"an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God"
Miracle - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Miracles are caused by the power of God.
magic doesn't exist.

But then again. Satan has powers as well. Perhaps he can empower individuals to perform seemingly impossible extraordinary actions as well. But since the source of that power is not God, it is not a miracle. We could I suppose call that magic.

Oh darn, it looks like I just contradicted myself. Oh well, such is life.

If it was done by will.....that would be supernatural.

Magicians and the devil use deception and redirection.

Heaven uses will.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I've been posting this for years....
Have you been reading my stuff?
or have you draw this conclusion on your own?

All this discussion and this point of agreement has been overlooked?

What point of agreement? That God is a magical being that does not exist?