The first story and a thing called free will

[sweets]

Hai!!!

For starters I would like to point out that I am a Bible noob, so sorry in advance, I'm just going off things that I learnt when I was a Christian.

As you guys know, Adam & Eve were God's first creations. Along with that, he placed them in the Garden in Eden? ( if I remember this story correctly ). Anyways, as you know, God told them not to eat from the fruit of the tree. The fruit being from the tree of knowledge.

I would like to point out that God created all things, he created the earth in bible, he created Adam & Eve, he also created the serpent or did he not create the serpent? Also, God is seen as all knowing, he knows the beginning and the end. Before I touch that part, I would like to say if the tree of knowledge, good and evil, how is Adam & Eve suppose to know the difference between right and wrong when they don't have that type of knowledge? Did they disobey God? Yes, they didn't follow the said orders he gave. They failed to obey. Overall, why wouldn't God want his people to be knowledgeable? Why would God want his people to be naive to good and bad things?

Another thing is free will. How can we have an all knowing God + his plan + free will? if things are predestined, if God does have a plan, how can free will exist?

I must warn, I suck at getting my thoughts out, so I hope that made sense and I'm not the best debater. But...have fun!

 

[Skwim]

Hai!!!

For starters I would like to point out that I am a Bible noob, so sorry in advance, I'm just going off things that I learnt when I was a Christian.

As you guys know, Adam & Eve were God's first creations. Along with that, he placed them in the Garden in Eden? ( if I remember this story correctly ). Anyways, as you know, God told them not to eat from the fruit of the tree. The fruit being from the tree of knowledge.

I would like to point out that God created all things, he created the earth in bible, he created Adam & Eve, he also created the serpent or did he not create the serpent? Also, God is seen as all knowing, he knows the beginning and the end. Before I touch that part, I would like to say if the tree of knowledge, good and evil, how is Adam & Eve suppose to know the difference between right and wrong when they don't have that type of knowledge? Did they disobey God? Yes, they didn't follow the said orders he gave. They failed to obey. Overall, why wouldn't God want his people to be knowledgeable? Why would God want his people to be naive to good and bad things?

Another thing is free will. How can we have an all knowing God + his plan + free will? if things are predestined, if God does have a plan, how can free will exist?

I must warn, I suck at getting my thoughts out, so I hope that made sense and I'm not the best debater. But...have fun!

You're quite right. If one is going to claim that god is omnipotent then a lot of what takes place is the Bible doesn't make sense. God would have known that A&E would eat the apple and that he would be banishing them from the garden of Eden, and that henceforth people would be committing sins, which he would have to send his son-self to earth to die for. To say nothing of the mistakes he made and then repented. As for free will, aside from god issue, it still amounts to nothing more than an illusion. However, in light of god's omnipotence it's also a duck dead in the water. Christian's have pretty much put god and Christianity in an indefensible corner with their claims, which has resulted in some pretty wild apologetics, much of it at the expense of coherency and logic. Most commonly it amounts to ignoring particular issues so as to make sense of others. Taken by themselves each may make sense, but when pieced together the picture is more a Wassily Kandinsky than a Norman Rockwell.

By the way, welcome to RF. Nice to have you aboard.

 

[Zardoz]

Welcome to RF!

... Overall, why wouldn't God want his people to be knowledgeable? Why would God want his people to be naive to good and bad things?

Just a couple of quick thoughts...

Do we not do the same with our own children? They were immature, and not ready.

Another thing is free will. How can we have an all knowing God + his plan + free will? if things are predestined, if God does have a plan, how can free will exist?

G-d is outside of time, existing in all timelines that might result from our choices, simultaneously. Therefore he can see the result of whatever path our free will has chosen and adjust his plan accordingly.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Hai!!!

For starters I would like to point out that I am a Bible noob, so sorry in advance, I'm just going off things that I learnt when I was a Christian.

As you guys know, Adam & Eve were God's first creations. Along with that, he placed them in the Garden in Eden? ( if I remember this story correctly ). Anyways, as you know, God told them not to eat from the fruit of the tree. The fruit being from the tree of knowledge.

I would like to point out that God created all things, he created the earth in bible, he created Adam & Eve, he also created the serpent or did he not create the serpent?

He created Lucifer, yes, originally as a good angel who then fell and became Satan, and came into the garden as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve.

Also, God is seen as all knowing, he knows the beginning and the end. Before I touch that part, I would like to say if the tree of knowledge, good and evil, how is Adam & Eve suppose to know the difference between right and wrong when they don't have that type of knowledge?

Adam and Eve were clearly told to not eat from that tree. They might not have had an extensive knowledge of morality and all the details of good and evil, but they knew not to eat from the tree.

Did they disobey God? Yes, they didn't follow the said orders he gave. They failed to obey. Overall, why wouldn't God want his people to be knowledgeable? Why would God want his people to be naive to good and bad things?

God did not want them to lose their innocence.

Another thing is free will. How can we have an all knowing God + his plan + free will? if things are predestined, if God does have a plan, how can free will exist?

God does have a plan, and His plan includes what Adam and Eve did, all looking towards the redemption that Jesus Christ brings in the cross, taking the punishment we deserved for our wrongdoing. I am not sure how "free" you wish "free will" to be, of course there are people who know less than others, etc. there is not really such a thing as a completely 'free' will. However, human beings have responsibility for their actions, despite all things going according to God's will.

Ah, and welcome to the forums!

 

[morphesium]

Hai!!!

For starters I would like to point out that I am a Bible noob, so sorry in advance, I'm just going off things that I learnt when I was a Christian.

As you guys know, Adam & Eve were God's first creations. Along with that, he placed them in the Garden in Eden? ( if I remember this story correctly ). Anyways, as you know, God told them not to eat from the fruit of the tree. The fruit being from the tree of knowledge.

I would like to point out that God created all things, he created the earth in bible, he created Adam & Eve, he also created the serpent or did he not create the serpent? Also, God is seen as all knowing, he knows the beginning and the end. Before I touch that part, I would like to say if the tree of knowledge, good and evil, how is Adam & Eve suppose to know the difference between right and wrong when they don't have that type of knowledge? Did they disobey God? Yes, they didn't follow the said orders he gave. They failed to obey. Overall, why wouldn't God want his people to be knowledgeable? Why would God want his people to be naive to good and bad things?

Another thing is free will. How can we have an all knowing God + his plan + free will? if things are predestined, if God does have a plan, how can free will exist?

I must warn, I suck at getting my thoughts out, so I hope that made sense and I'm not the best debater. But...have fun!

You, questioning your religion?.........you will probably end up as an atheist. What ever it be, RF should help you in this. Welcome.

"All thinking men are atheists" –Ernest Hemingway.​

 

[morphesium]

He created Lucifer, yes, originally as a good angel who then fell and became Satan, and came into the garden as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve.

Why would he create Lucifer in the first place. He could have created Lucifer in such a way that he wouldn't fall and become satan.

Adam and Eve were clearly told to not eat from that tree. They might not have had an extensive knowledge of morality and all the details of good and evil, but they knew not to eat from the tree.

Our urges, our personality are largely dependent on the chemical reactions that take place in our brain and it can be altered with chemicals. What if satan had given Adam and Eve some mind-altering drugs and that is what actually made Adam and Eve to take the bite. Those drugs would have been there in nature back then.

God did not want them to lose their innocence.

innocence ???????????????? God made him that way. If i have the know how how to make a car that runs for a 10000 miles trouble free (God knows everything), then why would i make a car that easily broke itself and then punish that car saying you lost your innocence???

God does have a plan, and His plan includes what Adam and Eve did, all looking towards the redemption that Jesus Christ brings in the cross, taking the punishment we deserved for our wrongdoing.

Yes! punish some one else for our wrong doing!!!!! You hurted /killed someone else slave, Let him kill / hurt your slave. justice done.

 

[Thief]

Hai!!!

For starters I would like to point out that I am a Bible noob, so sorry in advance, I'm just going off things that I learnt when I was a Christian.

As you guys know, Adam & Eve were God's first creations. Along with that, he placed them in the Garden in Eden? ( if I remember this story correctly ). Anyways, as you know, God told them not to eat from the fruit of the tree. The fruit being from the tree of knowledge.

I would like to point out that God created all things, he created the earth in bible, he created Adam & Eve, he also created the serpent or did he not create the serpent? Also, God is seen as all knowing, he knows the beginning and the end. Before I touch that part, I would like to say if the tree of knowledge, good and evil, how is Adam & Eve suppose to know the difference between right and wrong when they don't have that type of knowledge? Did they disobey God? Yes, they didn't follow the said orders he gave. They failed to obey. Overall, why wouldn't God want his people to be knowledgeable? Why would God want his people to be naive to good and bad things?

Another thing is free will. How can we have an all knowing God + his plan + free will? if things are predestined, if God does have a plan, how can free will exist?

I must warn, I suck at getting my thoughts out, so I hope that made sense and I'm not the best debater. But...have fun!

Many people say it was a test.
I would also.

The test was simple.
Partake of the knowledge of good and evil.....and die....
or continue as is.

We chose.

I say we for we carry the same trait.
We seek knowledge even when death is pending.

We passed the test.
If you do not have the will to seek what takes you beyond death.....
maybe you won't go.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Why would he create Lucifer in the first place. He could have created Lucifer in such a way that he wouldn't fall and become satan.

I do not claim to know all the ways and reasons of God, the fall of Lucifer is not gone into with much detail in the Bible. God could do whatever He wished, but as I said He has planned all things out, He knew what Lucifer would do.

Our urges, our personality are largely dependent on the chemical reactions that take place in our brain and it can be altered with chemicals. What if satan had given Adam and Eve some mind-altering drugs and that is what actually made Adam and Eve to take the bite. Those drugs would have been there in nature back then.

Umm... no, Satan just tempted them and told them they'd be like God, and so they ate. I'm just giving the Biblical perspective, anyone can come up with an infinite amount of "what if?" scenarios as you have just done.

innocence ???????????????? God made him that way. If i have the know how how to make a car that runs for a 10000 miles trouble free (God knows everything), then why would i make a car that easily broke itself and then punish that car saying you lost your innocence???

Adam and Eve chose to sin against God, God didn't make them robots. Human beings are not cars.

Yes! punish some one else for our wrong doing!!!!! You hurted /killed someone else slave, Let him kill / hurt your slave. justice done.

God actually took the punishment on Himself, as Jesus is God. He didn't get someone else to do it.

 

[George-ananda]

I must warn, I suck at getting my thoughts out, so I hope that made sense and I'm not the best debater. But...have fun!

You are already better than many here, let me tell you.

But anyway, I agree you find logical problems if you take things in Christian teachings too literally. I am an eastern/Hindu type and believe non-dualism (God and creation are not-two) is the better understanding of reality. God/Brahman alone has free will but we are that God/Brahman. It took me awhile to understand that having been raised with Christian concepts as you have also.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hai!!!
For starters I would like to point out that I am a Bible noob, so sorry in advance, I'm just going off things that I learnt when I was a Christian.
As you guys know, Adam & Eve were God's first creations. Along with that, he placed them in the Garden in Eden? ( if I remember this story correctly ). Anyways, as you know, God told them not to eat from the fruit of the tree. The fruit being from the tree of knowledge.
I would like to point out that God created all things, he created the earth in bible, he created Adam & Eve, he also created the serpent or did he not create the serpent? Also, God is seen as all knowing, he knows the beginning and the end. Before I touch that part, I would like to say if the tree of knowledge, good and evil, how is Adam & Eve suppose to know the difference between right and wrong when they don't have that type of knowledge? Did they disobey God? Yes, they didn't follow the said orders he gave. They failed to obey. Overall, why wouldn't God want his people to be knowledgeable? Why would God want his people to be naive to good and bad things?
Another thing is free will. How can we have an all knowing God + his plan + free will? if things are predestined, if God does have a plan, how can free will exist?
I must warn, I suck at getting my thoughts out, so I hope that made sense and I'm not the best debater. But...have fun!

The fruit tree of the ' knowledge of good and bad ' , Not just the tree of knowledge or education.
The tree in itself was not evil. Out of all the trees on earth only one tree belonged to God.
By saying ' Do Not touch ' it was as if God was posting a No trespassing sign on His tree.
That tree represented the Law. God as Creator has the right to determine what is good and what is bad.
God telling us what is good (Golden Rule ) is good in itself. Adam and Eve chose to self-determine for themselves.
Adam and Eve were banished, Not because they knew evil, but banished because they freely and by choice disobeyed God's Law.
The condition was they could live on earth forever if they obeyed that Law.
So, by determining for themselves ( People Rule ) they were in effect saying ' Man Rule ' is superior to ' God Rule '.
Mankind's history has shown that man has dominated man to man's injury or hurt - Ecclesiastes 8:9.
Independence from God has Not brought about Peace on Earth.

Satan was created sinless. Satan chose to become independent from God - James 1:13-15
Please post the Scripture that God predestines people.
Sure God knows the happy ending - Revelation 22:2 - for earth, but as to who will be part of Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth is an unknown number - Revelation 7:9 - that is why we are giving the two choices of ' repent or perish ' at 2 Peter 3:9 - Life eternal or destruction - Deuteronomy 30:19; Psalms 92:7