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the FoE - Fact of Evolution

Iasion

Member
Gday all,

Just a reminder - Evolution is a observed fact of nature.
AND -
there is a theory to explain the fact of evolution.

Just like gravitational theory explains the facts of gravity,
and germ theory explains facts about germs,
and atomic theory explains the facts of atoms.

But some people have an unfortunate habit of continually referring to "ToE" - as if evolution is "just a theory" - completing and falsely omitting the facts of evolution.

So please be careful in future - don't keep saying "ToE" - instead just use the simple term that scientists use - "evolution".

Not the "Theory of Evolution".
Not "ToE"
Just "evolution".

A fact of nature like gravity or atoms or germs.


Iasion
 

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
Just so you know, evolution isn't a fact, its a theory. In germ theory, disease is the fact and germs are postulated to explain the facts about illnesses. In atomic theory, chemical interactions are observed and atoms are postulated to explain the observed facts about matter. So in evolutionary theory what we have are a bunch of observed facts about living things and their relationships so we postulate evolution as an explaination to better understand those facts and their relationship. I'm a firm supporter of evolution, but its best not to confuse the difference between facts and theories. Facts are things you observe to be true and theories are grand explainations that weave those facts together while making testable predictions.

Edit: Also in Newton's gravitational theory, we observe the motions of falling objects and the movements of heavenly bodies and explain it by assuming the existence of a force that acts at a distance called gravity. Einstein's general relativity basically gets rid of gravity and better explains the observed facts with spacetime geometry.
 
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KnightOwl

Member
Just so you know, evolution isn't a fact, its a theory. In germ theory, disease is the fact and germs are postulated to explain the facts about illnesses. In atomic theory, chemical interactions are observed and atoms are postulated to explain the observed facts about matter. So in evolutionary theory what we have are a bunch of observed facts about living things and their relationships so we postulate evolution as an explaination to better understand those facts and their relationship. I'm a firm supporter of evolution, but its best not to confuse the difference between facts and theories. Facts are things you observe to be true and theories are grand explainations that weave those facts together while making testable predictions.

Edit: Also in Newton's gravitational theory, we observe the motions of falling objects and the movements of heavenly bodies and explain it by assuming the existence of a force that acts at a distance called gravity. Einstein's general relativity basically gets rid of gravity and better explains the observed facts with spacetime geometry.

So you're saying that the existence of germs is not a fact?
The existence of atoms?
 

David M

Well-Known Member
Just so you know, evolution isn't a fact, its a theory.

See, people do get it very, very wrong. Thanks for proving the OP right.

Evolution in terms of biology is the change in allele frequencies in a population over time. That is an observed fact.

The matching nested heirarchies from genetics and morphology are an observed fact.

The fossil record in an observed fact.

Speciation is an observed fact.

The patterns of ERVs are an observed fact.

The ToE explains these facts.

In germ theory, disease is the fact and germs are postulated to explain the facts about illnesses. In atomic theory, chemical interactions are observed and atoms are postulated to explain the observed facts about matter. So in evolutionary theory what we have are a bunch of observed facts about living things and their relationships so we postulate evolution as an explaination to better understand those facts and their relationship. I'm a firm supporter of evolution, but its best not to confuse the difference between facts and theories. Facts are things you observe to be true and theories are grand explainations that weave those facts together while making testable predictions.

The only person confusing the difference is yourself.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I understand, share and support the feeling expressed by the OP.

Still, I don't think changing terminology due to a lack of understanding by Creationists is a good solution. There is a danger of encouraging a dogmatic-like stance, which would be repeating the mistake from Creationists.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We should eschew a common scientific term just because some people don't understand how "theory" is defined and used in science? Seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

In re: fact vs theory, isn't "evolution" the observed fact that organisms change over time while "theory of evolution" is the proposed mechanisms of these changes?
Discussion: Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
 

AfterGlow

Invisible Puffle
You shouldn't use fact, fact isn't scientific terminology, you'd have it held against you if you used the word fact in a scientific paper.

We have observations and theories that explain the observations.

What you should say is that evolution of forms via natural selection is observed in nature and that the theory of evolution via natural selection suggests that this observed phenomena has been occurring since organic molecules first started to self-replicate. This postulate is supported by a wealth of paleontological and geological evidence.

That a bit of a mouthful, so it's simpler to just say that the theory of evolution appears to be functionally viable and correct.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Just so you know, evolution isn't a fact, its a theory. In germ theory, disease is the fact and germs are postulated to explain the facts about illnesses. In atomic theory, chemical interactions are observed and atoms are postulated to explain the observed facts about matter. So in evolutionary theory what we have are a bunch of observed facts about living things and their relationships so we postulate evolution as an explaination to better understand those facts and their relationship. I'm a firm supporter of evolution, but its best not to confuse the difference between facts and theories. Facts are things you observe to be true and theories are grand explainations that weave those facts together while making testable predictions.

Edit: Also in Newton's gravitational theory, we observe the motions of falling objects and the movements of heavenly bodies and explain it by assuming the existence of a force that acts at a distance called gravity. Einstein's general relativity basically gets rid of gravity and better explains the observed facts with spacetime geometry.

in sorry but it is both fact and theory.

ToE is based on observable facts.

you should check this out

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
 

newhope101

Active Member
See, people do get it very, very wrong. Thanks for proving the OP right.

Evolution in terms of biology is the change in allele frequencies in a population over time. That is an observed fact. Yep and the population is still the same population.Fruitflys remained fruitflys and bacteria remained bacteria and humans remain humans and chimps remain chimps, regardless. What you are describing is in kind adaptations at most. All your research showns is what happens when an organism has offspring. Creationists believe in babies darls and your allele frequencies are a sad attempt at providing evidence that one kind evolves into another kind.

The matching nested heirarchies from genetics and morphology are an observed fact. MMMmmm! So neanderthal was an ape man and now comes into our genus with genetic data. You have researchers still contesting this. Your nested heitarchies and ancestral connections are nothing more than presumptive at best.

fa23da53271f72c7bf3ab301904f0eb2.png
Taxonomies may change frequently (as seen in biological taxonomy), but the underlying concept of nested hierarchies is always the same.

Hierarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Horizontal gene transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now your researchrs have found HGT in multicelled organisms.
Gogarten: I think the pendulum swings back and forth. In the 1940s, scientists had largely given up on the idea that we could create a tree of life – a chart that would show us the lineage of organisms on Earth. Researchers figured because so much HGT was going on, it would be impossible to separate species into distinct lineages. Then, over the past decades, researchers like myself have given thought to the possibility that we may indeed be able to classify organisms, at least to some extent, despite the fact that they so frequently trade DNA. Yet rather than a tree of life, I think what we have to envision when we think of connections between species is more like a web, a network – where there are main lines of ancestry, yet some species that don’t fall strictly into any category between them. In this area, I think we are just scratching the surface of what we will find when we really start to learn more about how HGT has affected the evolution of organisms over the course of history.
Insights into horizontal gene transfer: conversations with Dr. Peter Gogarten and Dr. James Lake

You people are incredible. I laughed hard when I realised some of what you base ancestry on is various species being exposed to the same disease showing likeness in genes. What a joke!
The fossil record in an observed fact.
This is really the only evidence you have. The rest you mentioned use probabilities and change like the wind. The fossil evidence shows the sudden appearance of life during the cambrian, another creative event. You have found no common ancestors eg birds. You presume ancestry to pre cambrian life but have no evidence. Even your increasing complexity arguments have failed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution_(biology)
Genome increase as a clock for the origin and evolution of life

Speciation is an observed fact. Well if you call every small variation a different species and say this is what produces a new 'kind' eventually you have no proof at all. Even a fruit fly with legs hanging off its head is still a fruitfly that died due to its mutations. Showing how a fruitfly or bacteria adapts does not prove a chimp man is going to turn into a human. It means that chimp man may get bigger or smaller, may change diet, may have resistence to disease his pop never had but that does not start tuning him into a human.

The patterns of ERVs are an observed fact.
Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are sequences in the genome thought to be derived from ancient viral infections of germ cells in humans, mammals and other vertebrates; as such their proviruses are passed on to the next generation and now remain in the genome.
Endogenous retroviruses may be a variant of a retrovirus which became permanently integrated with its host and is inherited from generation to generation as part of the genome of the host.
Endogenous retrovirus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ahhaahaahhaa! Maybe we evolved from birds.....bird flu! Maybe we evolved from dogs, they have diabetes and cancer. What rubbish you use to ascertain presumptive ancestry.

The ToE explains these facts.
All you've shown is that maybe a mosquito carrying some disease hit on various creatures. Well done! I could have told you that for far less money.



The only person confusing the difference is yourself Do you think the flu or exposure to any virus or bacteria is going to change some mythical creature into a whale and a hippo? Truly sad but admittedly the best you can provide.


Oh your post was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh first thing in the morning.


These results show that slight changes in the control regions of genes lead to slight changes in the organism, and accumulation of such small differences may result in the creation of a new species. While this is widely accepted by evolutionary biologists, actual examples directly linking small changes in regulatory parts of genes to morphological differences have been scarce. While it may not be possible to swap regulatory sequences to turn a man into a banana, or even into a mouse, examination of these sequences may tell us how different organisms evolved.
What's The Difference Between Mice And Men?


The more I learn about your evolutionary hypothesis the more I realise your researchers have no clue and are graspping at straws.

The fact that evos speak to is they believe all life evolved some how from something else. This does not change. Everything else does so all you actually have is a wish list and flavour of the year to provide as irrefuteable evidence prior to being designated to the garbage bin of delusionary evidence past eg knuckle walking ancestry, LUCA, bird ancestry, hippo ancestry, brain size connections to bipedalism etc etc.

TOE is a theory and a sad one at that.
 
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camanintx

Well-Known Member
Evolution in terms of biology is the change in allele frequencies in a population over time. That is an observed fact. Yep and the population is still the same population.Fruitflys remained fruitflys and bacteria remained bacteria and humans remain humans and chimps remain chimps, regardless. What you are describing is in kind adaptations at most. All your research showns is what happens when an organism has offspring. Creationists believe in babies darls and your allele frequencies are a sad attempt at providing evidence that one kind evolves into another kind.
And still creationists cannot produce any precambrian rabbits. I guess if we see two streams approaching each other at one end of a valley and a single stream leaving the valley at the other end, it would be foolish to suggest that they merge at some point.
 

blackout

Violet.
what elevates a theory to a law?

"the Law of Evolution" LoE
(or whatever qualifies as scientific law)

just wondering



 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
what elevates a theory to a law?

"the Law of Evolution" LoE
(or whatever qualifies as scientific law)

just wondering




There is no official body or authority that says one hypothesis should be called a theory and another hypothesis should be called a law. Basically, it just boils down to custom in the end.
 

Iasion

Member
Gday,

We should eschew a common scientific term just because some people don't understand how "theory" is defined and used in science? Seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

No, we should learn how to use the correct terms.


In re: fact vs theory, isn't "evolution" the observed fact that organisms change over time while "theory of evolution" is the proposed mechanisms of these changes?
Discussion: Evolution is a Fact and a Theory

Like I said -
evolution is a fact(s) of nature,
and there is a theory to explain those facts.


Iasion
 
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Iasion

Member
what elevates a theory to a law?
"the Law of Evolution" LoE
(or whatever qualifies as scientific law)
just wondering

Theories do NOT get elevated to "law".
This is merely a common creationist mis-understanding.

There is NO "law of evolution" and there never will be.


Iasion
 

blackout

Violet.
Theories do NOT get elevated to "law".
This is merely a common creationist mis-understanding.

There is NO "law of evolution" and there never will be.


Iasion


is there a law of gravity?

I'm pretty sure I've heard that expression.

or it means the same thing as theory of gravity?

PS, it is not "merely a common creationist mis-understanding".
I am not a creationist.

Not all of us are all "gaga" over science.
:shrug:

But I do ask questions now and again,
if I'm curious
and not to busy doing something else
that is more important to me.
 
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