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The Four I's of Oppression

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As we've had threads about "woke M&M's," privilege, and canceling Pink Floyd, I was reading up on the general topic and found this essay: The Four I's of Oppression (grcc.edu)

The four I's:

Ideological Oppression
Institutional Oppression
Interpersonal Oppression
Internalized Oppression

It also explains the concept of "reverse racism":

No "reverse racism". These kinds of oppressive attitudes and behaviors are backed up by the institutional arrangements. This helps to clarify the confusion around what some claim to be "reverse racism". People of color can have prejudices against and anger towards white people, or individual white people. They can act out those feelings in destructive and hurtful ways towards whites. But in almost every case, this acting out will be severely punished. The force of the police and the courts, or at least a gang of whites getting even, will come crashing down on those people of color. The individual prejudice of black people, for example, is not backed up by the legal system and prevailing white institutions. The oppressed group, therefore, does not have the power to enforce its prejudices, unlike the dominant group.

For example, the racist beating of Rodney King was carried out by the institutional force of the police, and upheld by the court system. This would not have happened if King had been white and the officers black. A simple definition of racism, as a system, is:

RACISM = PREJUDICE + POWER.

Therefore, with this definition of the systemic nature of racism, people of color cannot be racist. The same formula holds true for all forms of oppression. The dominant group has its mistreatment of the target group embedded in and backed up by society's institutions and other forms of power

I've heard this view stated before, that people of color cannot be racist. They can be prejudiced, bigoted, and hateful as much as any other human, but they can't be racist because racism requires power. But then that prompts the question, what is power? Is power exemplified in what we see in the courts, in the media, by corporate America, and in the public policy implemented by our politicians and government?

At least on a public, overt level, it seems that the Powers That Be have made it clear that they are against racism, sexism, bigotry, and discrimination in all forms. This essay seems to address more subtle and hidden exertions of power, not its public face. From the essay:

Most people in the dominant group are not consciously oppressive. They have internalized the negative messages about other groups, and consider their attitudes towards the other group quite normal.

This would suggest that the oppression is not conscious, but has been internalized.

Internalized Privilege

Likewise, people who benefit the most from these systems internalize privilege. Privileged people involuntarily accept stereotypes and false assumptions about oppressed groups made by dominant culture. Internalized privilege includes acceptance of a belief in the inherent inferiority of the oppressed group as well as the inherent superiority or normalcy of one’s own privileged group. Internalized privilege creates an unearned sense of entitlement in members of the privileged group, and can be expressed as a denial of the existence of oppression and as paternalism.

The whole issue of "privilege" seems to raise a lot of hackles with people. People might hear terms like "white privilege" or "male privilege" or "white male privilege" - and it tends to put some people off, especially if they're white and/or male. (Although, as a side note, a lot of voices in the "manosphere" are men of color.)

As many of us already know, the right wing rejects this entire line of reasoning entirely. They categorically deny that there's any such thing as "white privilege" and contend that racism is all in the past, but not something that's actively practiced now. They would argue that Americans no longer judge people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I myself have observed noticeable changes during my own lifetime, as well as seeing profound changes in the way many people think and perceive other people, such as the attitudes of my grandparents. It doesn't mean that anyone is perfect, but there have been plenty of white people who have made an honest, good faith effort to look at things differently and unlearn the many lies their teachers and parents/grandparents told them.

I was listening to a Republican on the radio the other day, where he was strongly denying any charges of racism and bigotry leveled against the right. He said "it's all about capitalism," where it's all based upon skills, merit, and ambition - where anyone can succeed with a bit of luck and pluck, as long as there's free markets and economic freedom. They claim it's the Democrats who want to keep the blacks "on the plantation" so to speak, by keeping them permanently dependent on the government dole. Of course, I and many others on the left don't really believe what they say, as it comes across as pretty disingenuous and is simply tailored in such a way as to not be overtly or explicitly racist.

Then there are liberals, progressives, and others of a more leftish bent who lean towards social liberalism yet still embrace the same capitalistic principles embraced by the right-wing. Indeed, it seems that the most "woke" also appear to be the wealthiest, while bigotry and racism are commonly associated with the poorest elements in society, the "hillbillies" and "rednecks" of Appalachia and "flyover country." I think they're probably being duped, though everyone seems to point to Trump and DeSantis as being the driving force behind a lot of this. But someone must be backing them.

A couple of observations which I've noticed are common in public dialogue on topics such as this is that some people want to label others as racist, who are then met with denials, and then the whole discussion degenerates into some kind of psychological analysis about whether someone is a racist deep down, yet somehow still in denial. It's like it's something people want to hide or not admit to, yet there may be telltale clues just the same.

Another thing that should be noted, and why I think this essay does have good deal of merit, is that, historically, both liberals and conservatives, along with racists and anti-racists, have operated from a position of power. The Civil War was one such struggle for power, and in many ways, the Civil Rights Movement was another struggle for power. This would indicate that the underlying issue is all about power and how it is wielded in our society by those who hold the upper hand. Whether liberal or conservative, it's mostly been people with white faces setting the agenda. Of course, people of color have made inroads into politics and made some gains, and perhaps that may be why there's been noticeable pushback from certain sectors and regions.

This isn't really about being "woke," at least not as I see it. I believe that there is a duty to historical truth that must be adhered to, so we have to tell the truth about where we've come from and where we are today. But I also think that we need to live in the here and now. I think it's ultimately a lost cause to try to approach this issue from some sort psychological viewpoint, the idea of exposing and unmasking the "inner racist" that white people are apparently so desperate to conceal. Even if there may be some merit to the idea, it's too cerebral and esoteric for the general public to be able to digest, especially if a lot of these ideas have been internalized and reinforced throughout one's lifetime.

There are those who realize that the milk has already been spilled and that history can't be changed, but believe that it's best to just move forward and promote a spirit of cooperation, unity, and egalitarianism among neighbors. We don't need to play any more "power games," which is where all that struggle for "power" comes from and it's what all the fighting and dissension is really about.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A recent episode of Hidden Brain on NPR addressed
beliefs that run counter to reality, & how people will
alter their perceptions of reality to reinforce beliefs.
"Black people can't be racist."
To believe it, they change the dictionary definition of
"racism"....
Definition of racism | Dictionary.com
....to become about which race lacks power.
This is about self identity & threats to oneself.
By ignoring individual prejudices, blacks can
believe that they can't be racist, but white
people are merely by having perceived power.
Ref...
A new brain study sheds light on why it can be so hard to change someone's political beliefs
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
A recent episode of Hidden Brain on NPR addressed
beliefs that run counter to reality, & how people will
alter their perceptions of reality to reinforce beliefs.
"Black people can't be racist."
To believe it, they change the dictionary definition of
"racism"....
Definition of racism | Dictionary.com
....to become about which race lacks power.
This is about self identity & threats to oneself.
By ignoring individual prejudices, blacks can
believe that they can't be racist, but white
people are merely by having perceived power.
Ref...
A new brain study sheds light on why it can be so hard to change someone's political beliefs

Honestly I have never understood whether the word racist is a noun only, or can be used as an adjective as well.
Because in my language it can be used as both.

Why? Because it's a word that we Italians invented. And it didn't absolutely have a negative connotation. Because during fascism, so many anthropologists, biologists and similar were hired to form a Commission meant to write the Manifesto of Race. A racist scientist (scienziato razzista) was a biologist specialized in the study of human races, and we are speaking of great biologists, surely influenced by Darwinistic studies.

Then the Anglo-Saxons liberated Italy and took this term, that obviously assumed a negative connotation. Since it was invented by fascists.
And also Italians have been forced to give this word a negative connotation.

Back to the topic: discriminate against people on the basis of the race is wrong-
The Government is supposed to avoid discrimination, but that can be done without undermining "whites".
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Personally, I think it's perfectly fine to refer to a black person who holds certain prejudicial views against members of a particular race as "racist", and I think it's possible to do this without contradicting the notion that - at least in the current historical and cultural context - institutional or systemic racism in the west is still predominantly anti-black and has much more far-reaching effects. I get that defining racism as "prejudice plus power" is intended to highlight the disparity between anti-black and anti-white racism, and prevent talk of racism from simply being about individual racists or acts of racism, but I am happy to distinguish it as the difference between "racism" in general and "systemic/institutional/historic racism".
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
As we've had threads about "woke M&M's," privilege, and canceling Pink Floyd, I was reading up on the general topic and found this essay: The Four I's of Oppression (grcc.edu)

The four I's:

Ideological Oppression
Institutional Oppression
Interpersonal Oppression
Internalized Oppression

It also explains the concept of "reverse racism":





I've heard this view stated before, that people of color cannot be racist. They can be prejudiced, bigoted, and hateful as much as any other human, but they can't be racist because racism requires power. But then that prompts the question, what is power? Is power exemplified in what we see in the courts, in the media, by corporate America, and in the public policy implemented by our politicians and government?

At least on a public, overt level, it seems that the Powers That Be have made it clear that they are against racism, sexism, bigotry, and discrimination in all forms. This essay seems to address more subtle and hidden exertions of power, not its public face. From the essay:



This would suggest that the oppression is not conscious, but has been internalized.



The whole issue of "privilege" seems to raise a lot of hackles with people. People might hear terms like "white privilege" or "male privilege" or "white male privilege" - and it tends to put some people off, especially if they're white and/or male. (Although, as a side note, a lot of voices in the "manosphere" are men of color.)

As many of us already know, the right wing rejects this entire line of reasoning entirely. They categorically deny that there's any such thing as "white privilege" and contend that racism is all in the past, but not something that's actively practiced now. They would argue that Americans no longer judge people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I myself have observed noticeable changes during my own lifetime, as well as seeing profound changes in the way many people think and perceive other people, such as the attitudes of my grandparents. It doesn't mean that anyone is perfect, but there have been plenty of white people who have made an honest, good faith effort to look at things differently and unlearn the many lies their teachers and parents/grandparents told them.

I was listening to a Republican on the radio the other day, where he was strongly denying any charges of racism and bigotry leveled against the right. He said "it's all about capitalism," where it's all based upon skills, merit, and ambition - where anyone can succeed with a bit of luck and pluck, as long as there's free markets and economic freedom. They claim it's the Democrats who want to keep the blacks "on the plantation" so to speak, by keeping them permanently dependent on the government dole. Of course, I and many others on the left don't really believe what they say, as it comes across as pretty disingenuous and is simply tailored in such a way as to not be overtly or explicitly racist.

Then there are liberals, progressives, and others of a more leftish bent who lean towards social liberalism yet still embrace the same capitalistic principles embraced by the right-wing. Indeed, it seems that the most "woke" also appear to be the wealthiest, while bigotry and racism are commonly associated with the poorest elements in society, the "hillbillies" and "rednecks" of Appalachia and "flyover country." I think they're probably being duped, though everyone seems to point to Trump and DeSantis as being the driving force behind a lot of this. But someone must be backing them.

A couple of observations which I've noticed are common in public dialogue on topics such as this is that some people want to label others as racist, who are then met with denials, and then the whole discussion degenerates into some kind of psychological analysis about whether someone is a racist deep down, yet somehow still in denial. It's like it's something people want to hide or not admit to, yet there may be telltale clues just the same.

Another thing that should be noted, and why I think this essay does have good deal of merit, is that, historically, both liberals and conservatives, along with racists and anti-racists, have operated from a position of power. The Civil War was one such struggle for power, and in many ways, the Civil Rights Movement was another struggle for power. This would indicate that the underlying issue is all about power and how it is wielded in our society by those who hold the upper hand. Whether liberal or conservative, it's mostly been people with white faces setting the agenda. Of course, people of color have made inroads into politics and made some gains, and perhaps that may be why there's been noticeable pushback from certain sectors and regions.

This isn't really about being "woke," at least not as I see it. I believe that there is a duty to historical truth that must be adhered to, so we have to tell the truth about where we've come from and where we are today. But I also think that we need to live in the here and now. I think it's ultimately a lost cause to try to approach this issue from some sort psychological viewpoint, the idea of exposing and unmasking the "inner racist" that white people are apparently so desperate to conceal. Even if there may be some merit to the idea, it's too cerebral and esoteric for the general public to be able to digest, especially if a lot of these ideas have been internalized and reinforced throughout one's lifetime.

There are those who realize that the milk has already been spilled and that history can't be changed, but believe that it's best to just move forward and promote a spirit of cooperation, unity, and egalitarianism among neighbors. We don't need to play any more "power games," which is where all that struggle for "power" comes from and it's what all the fighting and dissension is really about.
It strikes me as quite absurd to say that to be racist requires power. The worst racists I have come across are people with very little power in society. In fact it is often the resentment bred from their powerlessness that makes them racist - they are looking for someone to feel superior to, or to blame for their predicament.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
As many of us already know, the right wing rejects this entire line of reasoning entirely. They categorically deny that there's any such thing as "white privilege" and contend that racism is all in the past, but not something that's actively practiced now. They would argue that Americans no longer judge people by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. I myself have observed noticeable changes during my own lifetime, as well as seeing profound changes in the way many people think and perceive other people, such as the attitudes of my grandparents. It doesn't mean that anyone is perfect, but there have been plenty of white people who have made an honest, good faith effort to look at things differently and unlearn the many lies their teachers and parents/grandparents told them.

The problem is not all white people or all males are privileged. There are many poor white people and poor males. The Left likes to label these as trailer trash. How is 24 million white poor people even possible, in the land of white and male privilege? Shouldn't these all automatically be middle class by asserting their white privilege?

The poor whites have to compete with everyone including the rich whites, like everyone else. What is their excuse for not being on the top, so they can manipulate the system, to give them them more than they earned? These poor whites have to stand on their own, since their poverty is their white privilege? Which poor in the USA are the most privilege according to the Left?

One size fits all is how a racist thinks. This is why the Left comes up with such scams. Everyone white is lumped as privileged, when that is not even real. Racists do not use all the data, but limit the data to suit their scam, while pretending all the data is uniform.

If we look at professional men's sports, there is a disproportional ratio of black men. However, not all black men automatically become pros in sports. Is this due to black privilege in sports? Or is it a mixture of hard work, drive, and natural skill? Privilege means no worked is needed since you are entitled. Most success in all walks of life is based on hard work, dedication, and talent. It is not an entitlement, without effort.

If one area of culture; sports, can be best represented by the hard work and the unique talents of one demographics, is it possible that other aspects of culture, also break down in a similar way? Asians do well in school and one would expect their hard work and natural talent will make them do well in science. This is not based on privilege, but how the cards of hard work fall. Privilege does not require work or the one doing the most work.

As another example, say you assume white privilege, for the sake of argument, is the rule in industry. Say a hundred people apply for a top level job; CEO, and half of them are white. Since there is only one job opening, what is free excuse fro the 49 whites, who do not get the job, based on their white privilege? The pick comes down to the best fit for the job, and not something sinister where 50 CEO jobs need to created for all the whites, but nobody else.

Say Left wing politics makes laws, that can force the hiring decision of companies; forced quota. Doesn't this evoke some type of privilege, since hard work is not the final say? The Left complains about privilege, while doing that very thing with law. They want to decide who is privileged, and who can override the result of hard work in the free market.

White Privilege is really a projection of white Democrats playing God. They think it is their job to decide who gets the privilege of any job, while blaming all whites. This race blame is used to buffer excuse for themselves, who make the laws for forced systemic privilege.

Affirmative action is an example of an objective privilege, since all examples of this are based on common criteria the left wing defined. Privilege is not about competition, but about a sure thing by decree. If you are part of the privileged class, which is above the law, you can escape justice by decree. By decree is the tell for privilege. Only Congress can use insider information since that is their privilege. It is not about hard work and talent but about entitlement by decree.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It strikes me as quite absurd to say that to be racist requires power. The worst racists I have come across are people with very little power in society. In fact it is often the resentment bred from their powerlessness that makes them racist - they are looking for someone to feel superior to, or to blame for their predicament.

It has nothing to do with power.
Freemasons join Freemasonry because they need to feel better than others...and it has nothing to do with merit.
Since there are Freemasons who have been accepted into Freemasonry, having just a high school diploma.
People with two degrees that will never be allowed to join the sacred lodges.

This thread is very, very, very interesting and insightful.
The four Is can be applied to every field of society. I think that Internalized Privilege is what Freemasons or Bankers feel. They feel better than the crowd, so they are supposed by divine right to own more than anyone else.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There are those who realize that the milk has already been spilled and that history can't be changed, but believe that it's best to just move forward and promote a spirit of cooperation, unity, and egalitarianism among neighbors. We don't need to play any more "power games," which is where all that struggle for "power" comes from and it's what all the fighting and dissension is really about.
For what it's worth, I fully agree. :clapping:
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
As we've had threads about "woke M&M's," privilege, and canceling Pink Floyd, I was reading up on the general topic and found this essay: The Four I's of Oppression (grcc.edu)

The four I's:

Ideological Oppression
Institutional Oppression
Interpersonal Oppression
Internalized Oppression

It also explains the concept of "reverse racism":

Full disclosure, I only skimmed the article, I didn't study it carefully. That said, it seems to me the article uses a lot of techniques from identity politics, and to me that's a red flag.

Identity politics is a tool used by people (IPers ?!), on the left and the right. I think it's almost always a bad approach. A common tactic of the IPers is to use statistics, which on the surface makes sense, but we all know that it's easy to mislead or be misled by stats. The article is guilty of the misleading use of stats.

Better - IMO - is to constrain yourself to discussing and debating ideas and behaviors.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I think they're probably being duped, though everyone seems to point to Trump and DeSantis as being the driving force behind a lot of this. But someone must be backing them.

Both have capitalized and taken advantage of sentiments once quieted, and rekindled them.

It's like it's something people want to hide or not admit to, yet there may be telltale clues just the same.

There's always a 'tell', sometimes well hidden, but eventually outed.

After its passing Johnson replied 'We lost the south for decades'
Ane with the power of the Supreme Court, it may actually be reversed or at least watered down.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If we want to understand the term "racism" (and "racist") we need to understand the term "bigotry". Because in nearly all instances, the term "racism" is being used as shorthand for 'racially based bigotry'. And bigotry is a somewhat complex concept that not everyone fully grasps, nor fully agrees with. Especially those most likely to be accused of it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Very few racists see themselves as racists. They just think they ARE superior. Not that they are falsely presuming someone else to be inferior.

The privileged almost never see themselves as being privileged. They see themselves as being more able, and therefor more deserving.

Racism (racial bigotry) can be both offensive and defensive. Plenty of black people and women are racist and sexist. But it's almost always defensive, as opposed to offensive. It's their way of reasserting their sense of value by proclaiming their superiority.
 
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