Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe ancient tribal texts is a false attribution. In those texts God is testifying of Himself.
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The Garden of Eden
- Thread starter DavidSMoore
- Start date
This is, of course, a religious claim like JEws and Muslims as well as other ancient religions.
They are in fact ancient scriptures by definition dating from 600 BCE to ~150-300 AD without provenance with roots in Sumerian, Babylonian, and Cananit writings. . They are indeed tribal, first the Hebrew tribes, then the Cristian tribes claiming the succession of Messianic prophecies and Hebrew prophets, and of Source followed by the Islamic claims that claim the succession of the prophets since Abraham. The Hebrews originate as a Canaanite tribe or tribes with Canaanite tribal belief and Gods.
Oxford Languages and Google - English | Oxford Languages
Google’s English dictionary is provided by Oxford Languages. Oxford Languages is the world’s leading dictionary publisher, with over 150 years of experience creating and delivering authoritative dictionaries globally in more than 50 languages.
languages.oup.com
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you are in error. Those who spoke Hebrew descended from Abraham who was from Ur in Mesopotamia. However I see Abraham as a descendent of Adam but others in Mesopotamia were not.This is, of course, a religious claim like JEws and Muslims as well as other ancient religions.
They are in fact ancient scriptures by definition dating from 600 BCE to ~150-300 AD without provenance with roots in Sumerian, Babylonian, and Cananit writings. . They are indeed tribal, first the Hebrew tribes, then the Cristian tribes claiming the succession of Messianic prophecies and Hebrew prophets, and of Source followed by the Islamic claims that claim the succession of the prophets since Abraham. The Hebrews originate as a Canaanite tribe or tribes with Canaanite tribal belief and Gods.
Oxford Languages and Google - English | Oxford Languages
Google’s English dictionary is provided by Oxford Languages. Oxford Languages is the world’s leading dictionary publisher, with over 150 years of experience creating and delivering authoritative dictionaries globally in more than 50 languages.
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.
It was God who set up the tribes and not the tribes that set up God.
Simply absolutely no known hebrew or the text of the Pentateuch before 600 BCE whether you believe it or not,
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
Can you reveal to us what fruit tree you know of the fruit of which makes a woman get naked, and if her body swallows, pregnant? The narrative clearly implies, one, that she appreciates the nature of her nakedness after she eats this fruit. Two, that she should cover her private part now that its naked purpose has been revealed. And three, that she's gonna get pregnant from eating of it and that the childbirth will be painful.
Is there some fruit down in the Amazon jungles that fits that description? Perhaps the natives make their kotekas out of the skin of that fruit?
John
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
Apparently you don't know what it means in the context of its usage? The word in Hebrew is yada ידע (the noun is daat דעת). And throughout the Torah, whenever a man has sex with his wife the text claims he gains "knowledge" (yada ידע) of her. Gaining "knowledge" of her as a verb is yada ידע, while the "knowledge" gained is daat דעת. . . Didn't know daat didya?
One of the most pervasive metaphors for sex in talmudic literature associates it with food. . . For example, wives in the talmudic texts to be discussed below describe their and their husband's sexual practice as "setting the table" and "turning it over," and the Talmud itself produces a comparison between sexuality and food--- either of which one may "cook" however one pleases, provided only that it is kosher to begin with. . . the force of the metaphor and the implied equation of the woman's body to food cannot be denied. . . The eating metaphor here must be read within the context of the rich field of metaphor in which sex and eating are mutually mapped onto each other in the talmudic culture with eating the quintessential signifier of that which is both pleasurable and necessary for health and well-being. . . Thus the Mishna at Ketubbot 5:9 reads that a wife has the right to eat with her husband every Friday night, and in both Talmuds, this is understood to mean to have sexual intercourse with him.
Talmudic scholar Daniel Boyarin, Carnal Israel, p. 72; 116-117.
Despite your erudite language style, this stuff is really way over your head David.
John
First, ancient humans lack the ability to convey a simple truth, to the next generation. That's why Noah's event can be found as a myth in the different cultures. That is to say, plain truth (let's assume so for the sake of argument) will inevitably turn into a myth by ancient humans.
In order to convey a truth, God has to first turn plain facts into a story form, such that the well-trained up Jews can convey a story faithfully, with God standing behind the scene. God makes sure that the story is intact through the path of how it is conveyed via the ancient Jews. God didn't convey quantum physics as a truth, or else you already know who God is without putting in any faith. That is, if the Jews have conveyed quantum physics as a truth from God, then today you don't need faith to tell that God exists, or else the Jews 3000 years ago can't possibly know what quantum physics is.
God however chose to convey a story such that even today you need Faith to approach God. In today's world, an Eden story is more like a text file encrypted before transmitting/conveying. You need a key from the author to decrypt it to tell what is said.
In order to convey a truth, God has to first turn plain facts into a story form, such that the well-trained up Jews can convey a story faithfully, with God standing behind the scene. God makes sure that the story is intact through the path of how it is conveyed via the ancient Jews. God didn't convey quantum physics as a truth, or else you already know who God is without putting in any faith. That is, if the Jews have conveyed quantum physics as a truth from God, then today you don't need faith to tell that God exists, or else the Jews 3000 years ago can't possibly know what quantum physics is.
God however chose to convey a story such that even today you need Faith to approach God. In today's world, an Eden story is more like a text file encrypted before transmitting/conveying. You need a key from the author to decrypt it to tell what is said.
That being said. God's goal is to build an eternity we call Heaven where the three parties, that is God, angels and humans will live in harmony with high satisfaction. God is a completely sin-incompatible God, so He sets up Law to express how a harmony can be reached with such a sin-incompatible God. The rest is mathematical and follows math to work out.
Adam and Even are originally kept as innocent as possible (don't know good from evil) such that they are not easily subject themselves to the effect of Law. It is similar to human jurisdiction, laws mostly don't apply to children as they are innocent of laws. So are Adam and Eve.
Freewill at the end means one can choose to oppose God, by breaking laws defined by God. Humans fall is inevitable, especially when manipulated by the much more capable and intelligent angelic beings (i.e., the crafty snake in Eden). With freewill in place, 2/3 angels can (mathematically) pass the Judgment of Law to enter Heaven (i.e., capable of living with the sin-compatible God in harmony with high satisfaction). As humans are granted with a larger degree of freewill (but much less capable and intelligent than the angels), a factor of less than 1/3 humans, like the angels, can pass to set foot in Heaven. 2/3 is a key figure hinted in the book of Revelation. 1/3 or less is a key figure of "saved through the narrow gate".
Besides freewill itself, of which 1/3 or less shall be saved, the factor from the influence of angelic beings causes the scenario that no human (absolute zero) can be savable in terms of Law, as said no one is righteous not even one. It's also said that all mankind is kept captive under Law when manipulated by Satan. If Law determines that no human can be deemed savable, subsequently humans as a whole needs to be destroyed as the Heaven building purpose with humans as one of the three parties is defeated. That's Noah's story.
God however, in accordance to Law, is willing to make a self-sacrifice through Jesus such that humans can "dodge" the Judgment of Law. With Jesus then, humans are granted the covenants. The Judgment of Covenant takes the place of Judgment of Law. With this Judgment of Covenant, 1/3 or less humans can be saved through narrow gate fore-mentioned. Effectively Jesus offsets the negative effect of influence from angels to humans.
In today's world, humans acquired science (the Knowledge), while by their best judgment life doesn't continue after death. The Tree of Life is about whether life continues after death or not. It's kept from the reach of humans. Only God knows such a future. Humans are truly gods if they truly know what will be going on after death. The best judgment of humankind (knowledge, knowledge) today is that "life doesn't continue beyond death" , this however could possibly an answer under the snake's manipulation as prophesied.
Adam and Even are originally kept as innocent as possible (don't know good from evil) such that they are not easily subject themselves to the effect of Law. It is similar to human jurisdiction, laws mostly don't apply to children as they are innocent of laws. So are Adam and Eve.
Freewill at the end means one can choose to oppose God, by breaking laws defined by God. Humans fall is inevitable, especially when manipulated by the much more capable and intelligent angelic beings (i.e., the crafty snake in Eden). With freewill in place, 2/3 angels can (mathematically) pass the Judgment of Law to enter Heaven (i.e., capable of living with the sin-compatible God in harmony with high satisfaction). As humans are granted with a larger degree of freewill (but much less capable and intelligent than the angels), a factor of less than 1/3 humans, like the angels, can pass to set foot in Heaven. 2/3 is a key figure hinted in the book of Revelation. 1/3 or less is a key figure of "saved through the narrow gate".
Besides freewill itself, of which 1/3 or less shall be saved, the factor from the influence of angelic beings causes the scenario that no human (absolute zero) can be savable in terms of Law, as said no one is righteous not even one. It's also said that all mankind is kept captive under Law when manipulated by Satan. If Law determines that no human can be deemed savable, subsequently humans as a whole needs to be destroyed as the Heaven building purpose with humans as one of the three parties is defeated. That's Noah's story.
God however, in accordance to Law, is willing to make a self-sacrifice through Jesus such that humans can "dodge" the Judgment of Law. With Jesus then, humans are granted the covenants. The Judgment of Covenant takes the place of Judgment of Law. With this Judgment of Covenant, 1/3 or less humans can be saved through narrow gate fore-mentioned. Effectively Jesus offsets the negative effect of influence from angels to humans.
In today's world, humans acquired science (the Knowledge), while by their best judgment life doesn't continue after death. The Tree of Life is about whether life continues after death or not. It's kept from the reach of humans. Only God knows such a future. Humans are truly gods if they truly know what will be going on after death. The best judgment of humankind (knowledge, knowledge) today is that "life doesn't continue beyond death" , this however could possibly an answer under the snake's manipulation as prophesied.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe there are a lot of things unknown.
True like the sky is Carolina blue on a clear day at noon on the 4th of July.
The problem is without any independent objective evidence claims are meaningless. Ancient texts make claims of World floods. dragons, cyclops, and a wide variety of Gods, but they cannot be claimed as true without independent objective evidence,
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
Genesis 3:5-7
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
The Devil/Satan Celebrates and Rejoices in the Original Rebellion Against Elohim/God Protecting those Deceived.
Eyes Wide Shut (1999) Official Trailer - Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman Movie HD
Eyes Wide Shut - Trailer [1999] HD
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
The Devil/Satan Celebrates and Rejoices in the Original Rebellion Against Elohim/God Protecting those Deceived.
Eyes Wide Shut (1999) Official Trailer - Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman Movie HD
Eyes Wide Shut - Trailer [1999] HD
Is that actually how you understand the account in Genesis 3? If so, I feel very sorry for you.
a) The woman did not "get naked". That implies clothing removal, but the Genesis story doesn't say that.
b) There is nothing said that if she eats some of the fruit that she will get pregnant.
c) Your mention of kotekas is twisted, irrelevant thinking!
Your bizarre interpretation of Genesis shows a lot about who you are!
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
No need to feel sorry for me.
The scripture speaks to different people in different languages and in different ways. The perspective that's brought to the text (eisegesis) is part and and parcel of what the text delivers (exegesis). Many Jewish and Christian perspectives are quite clear that the original sin was sexual in nature. In fact, the broad spectrum of biblical narrative is skewed pretty badly if the nature of the original sin isn't understood to be sexual in nature.John
Your "signature" shows exactly where you're coming from. To me, the account in Genesis is anything but sexual in nature.No need to feel sorry for me.
John
Genesis 3:6-7, "When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."
Unlike yourself, I see a) a desire for wisdom, b) sharing between people, and c) awareness of their situation. There is nothing sexual about it.
There is also nothing sexual about the verses that follow...
Genesis 3:8-19, "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God moving about in the orchard at the breezy time of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the orchard. But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” The man replied, “I heard you moving about in the orchard, and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid.” And the Lord God said, “Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” The man said, “The woman whom you gave me, she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it.” So the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this] you have done?” And the woman replied, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.”
The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all the cattle
and all the living creatures of the field!
On your belly you will crawl[al]
and dust you will eat[am] all the days of your life.
And I will put hostility[an] between you and the woman
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he will strike your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your labor pains;
with pain you will give birth to children.
You will want to control your husband,
but he will dominate[ax] you.”
But to Adam he said,
“Because you obeyed your wife
and ate from the tree about which I commanded you,
‘You must not eat from it,’
the ground is cursed because of you;
in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
but you will eat the grain of the field.
By the sweat of your brow you will eat food
until you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you will return.”
I don't see how it is at all possible to interpret this as having sexual meaning.
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
It doesn't have to be read as having a sexual meaning in order for you or anyone else to connect with God through the text. So long as you're connecting with God, having fruitful intercourse with the revelation, so to say, then you're reading the text correctly for your personal edification.
The text of the Bible genuinely transcends our human world, and our human understanding of textual communication. The text can speak to every genuine reader within his current contextual/epistemological development. For me to try to shove the sexual reading of the original sin down anyone's throat is something I'd never do.
Fwiw, it seems almost as peculiar to think of food as making one wise, as it is to think of it as making one pregnant.
Those who study the text carefully, realize there's all kinds of subtle word-play designed to make the narrative into a puzzle that can only be deeply enjoined by someone who spends most of their time trying to see the image that a completion of the puzzle delivers. For instance, throughout the Tanakh, when a man has sex with his wife, the Hebrew text says he comes to "know" ידע his wife. The very word used throughout the Tanakh for sexual knowledge, as gained through intercourse, is the Hebrew word "yada" ידע, which is the word for "knowledge" or "wisdom." Eve seeks to gain yada ידע or da'at דעת (which, the latter, is the noun associated with the verb) of Adam through intercourse.
In the narrative that says one of Noah's sons uncovered his (Noah's) "nakedness," the text is stating that one of Noah's sons had sex with Noah's wife (leading to the birth of Canaan). In this sense, the word "nakedness" is often a euphemism for sexual activity such that not only do Adam and Eve gain "knowledge" yada ידע of one another (i.e., sexual knowledge), but they come to equate this sexual knowledge with "nakedness."
Here we have the messianic prophesy of the battle between the seed of the woman (the ovum) and the seed of the fleshly serpent, semen. The serpent, that is the phallus, will have his head crushed (his kingdom destroyed) by the one seed of a woman that conceives a Jewish firstborn before the seed of the serpent contaminates his conception and birth.
For this unique Jewish firstborn to be born in the manner that allows him to crush the head of the serpent, he has to be conceived the old-fashioned way: without sexual congress. He has to be born of a virgin pregnancy just like the first human in Genesis was supposed to be born if not for the original sin.
Which segues back to the the question as to what fruit a woman can eat that will cause her to have painful childbirth? What fruit is directly related to pregnancy, and childbirth?
John
I am certainly glad that I don't have your sexual fixation! You must be a very miserable person, hung up as you clearly are on sex, seeing it everywhere, even where it doesn't exist.
A perfect example: "The serpent, that is the phallus..."
I am putting you on "ignore", as I have absolutely no desire to read any more of your clearly neurotic obsession.
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
. . . We all tend to see what we want to see:
It is a well known fact that in almost every culture the serpent represents some sort of phallic symbol. To a large degree then, the serpent represents sexual temptation. Our sages teach us that the main temptation the serpent used to lure Eve was that of sex.
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Tzitzith: A Thread of Light.
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:15.
John
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
If the garden of Eden exists then it should be extremely easy to find because we know exactly where it should be. Here's what the Bible says:
Not only that, but after God expelled the humans from Eden he posted guards at the entrance:
So all you have to do to show that the garden of Eden exists is to go to the confluence of the four rivers-- the Pishon, the Gihon, the Tigris, and the Euphrates-- and to look for cherubim and a flaming sword.
Oddly, no one has every found any such thing.
The Garden of Eden is both a physical place that was "east" of Eden, as well as a non-literal place that provided an explanation for a particular phenomenon which in this case is the rain cycle. Reading Genesis 1 and 2, we note that the garden was made at a time when there was no rain, and the earth was watered from a rising mist. The river that "feeds" the garden the essentially the flow of this rising mist water.
The next verse in Genesis then says this river then separates into four "heads", which has generally been interpreted as meaning physical rivers. However, the four "rivers of Eden", if taken to be the Euphrates, Tigris, Gihon (Indus), and Pishon (Nile), never physically intersect from a single point on earth. Instead, by considering the description as the rain cycle, that is the water from Eden feeding the garden, then rising to "separate" into four heads of clouds that take the water to become the source of the rivers (born) of Eden would resolve the geographical paradox.
Being the great rivers of the ancient civilizations, Genesis tells us the importance of the garden as the source, perhaps showing how the water travels through the trees of life and good and evil before becoming clouds. This therefore being the ancient explanation to photosynthesis or "east" (sunlight) and evaporation, and the lifeblood of the great rivers.
Adam and Eve existed to be with God since that was why they were created, destined to live forever by eating from the tree of life. By becoming aware of themselves with "ego", as well as "knowing" each other, after eating the fruit, they became separated from God. Since death is the only separation between an omniscient man and his omnipotent creator, to be banished far from the tree of life "assures" this separation as well as man's subordination to God.
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
John 3:14
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Yes, Indeed, Elohim/God Determines what is Seen in the Eye of the Beholder.
How do you Interpret John 3:14 in regards to Representation?
Elihoenai
Well-Known Member
James 4:4
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
You have things Inverted. You appear to be a Confused Christian. The World is Obsessed/Addicted to Perverted Sex.