samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I am beginning to wonder if you are having difficulties with comprehension, Tb.
Your #138 fails because it is irrational. And it makes no sense because it is irrational.
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The good atheist
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
Your #138 fails because it is irrational. And it makes no sense because it is irrational.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Y cannot say that she knows that X has not found the answer.
Therefore Y cannot say that X has not found the one true God.
Y cannot say either one of those things because Y does not know hat X has found.
That is perfectly rational.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Absolutely true.
Y cannot say that she knows that X has not found the answer
Just as X cannot say that she knows that she has found the answer.
That was a bit like pulling teeth, but you got there at last.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Because the Abrahamic god of Christianity and Islam doesn't care one bit about behavior.
He only cares how gullible you are.
The first requirement is if you believe the right things on bad evidence.
Such a god rewards gullibility and punishes rationality, while ignoring actual behavior.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
That would be a two way street then.
What if your preaching insults my belief?
That's ok?
It's also very problematic in terms of how do you measure that?
Many times, theists feel their beliefs are insulted while in reality they are simply being questioned.
If I say that I don't think god exist or that gods have no role in the workings of the universe, am I then insulting your beliefs?
When a I draw a picture of what I think mohammed looked like, am I then insulting your beliefs?
If the secular democracy you live in implements gay marriage, does that insult your beliefs?
I don't know about you, but I have my share of experiences with theists who would agree to all of these.
Sometimes, people just feel insulted by whatever while what they felt insulted by wasn't meant as an insult at all.
I'll go a step further and state that I have the right to insult, ridicule, laugh with ANY belief or claim.
And that goes for everyone else also. My beliefs and claims aren't immune to it either.
Ridicule in fact is a very powerful tool to make a point clear, to learn, etc.
I don't see why I wouldn't get to have my opinion about a belief and be able to share it.
I think it's ridiculous.
Instead of telling everyone to go out of their way to accomodate for anyone's personal sensitivities, I'ld rather say to all: "grow some thicker skin...."
Where is it illegal to mock modern secular values?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Most atheists claim that it is a lack of belief.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I did not get to where you are at.Absolutely true.
Y cannot say that she knows that X has not found the answer
Just as X cannot say that she knows that she has found the answer.
That was a bit like pulling teeth, but you got there at last.
X knows that she has found the answer.
Atheism is a lack of belief.
Every person - including every atheist - holds beliefs. None of these beliefs are what makes a person an atheist.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Know? Are you sure you want to do this again? After all, the business of epistemology is not your strong point.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I don't want to do it at all.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
This does not surprise me. But you must understand that if you say 'know' instead of 'believe' (eg Tb knows that she has found the one true God), you are going to be asked some pertinent questions.
Do you understand the difference between knowing X is true and believing X is true?
Or maybe you think there is no difference?
Or maybe you use the word 'knowing' differently from other people?
Can you explain?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course I know I am going to be asked some pertinent questions. I have been asked these questions over and over again.
I also know the difference between the definitions of believe and know, although there is some overlap.
I accept as true (believe) that I have found the one true God and I know that I have found the one true God in the sense of 2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of. Please note that the definition says truth or factuality of. I am aware of the truth of, not the factuality of, my belief in the one true God. All knowledge is not factual knowledge. That is only one type of knowledge.
Believe
1. accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
"the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
2. hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose.
"I believe we've already met"
believe means - Google Search
Definition of know
1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself(3): to recognize the nature of : discern b(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of
2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write
Definition of KNOW
syo
Well-Known Member
Nope. They will reincarnate, like all of us.
I believe that it is freedom from attachment to the physical body and material world and its things that is required before one can get to heaven, rather than good works. So the atheist that you describe won't necessarily get to heaven, but neither will the believer of any other faith (unless they free themselves from attachment to the material world).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe the same thing but 'maybe' for a different reason.
I believe that if a person dies and is still attached to the physical body and material world and its things, they will be in hell, since that is what hell is. So when a person dies and realizes they no longer have a physical body for pleasure (food, drink, sex) and they realize that they no longer have a material world and its things that they enjoy so much, they will be in hell, which is a state of the soul that lives for physical pleasures and everything else that the material world has to offer.
I believe that hell is failing in our allegiance to God and instead becoming a victim to self and passion and sinking in their depths.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
Do you believe this hell to be eternal/permanent?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, not necessarily. I believe our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore God can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, anyone He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it. I also believe that people can pray for other souls and help them advance.
On the other hand, if those souls do not want to be near God, and they remain attached to the things of this material world after they die, I think they might get stuck in hell forever.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Good job dodging the question.
I don't have a belief in god.
That doesn't mean that I don't have any beliefs at all.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
One doesn't rule out the other.