The Gospel - Is it only that Jesus died or is it that we celebrate The Resurrection?

[URAVIP2ME]

......................................................................................................................................
Jesus is killed through a betrayal, and so his murder is illegitimate in one more way. In every way possible he ought not to have been killed had the law been perfect or perfectly followed. Everything went wrong! The leaders failed to catch the error, and they approved of Jesus death. The High Priest did nothing to save him. Jesus shows that the law has failed to preserve an innocent person, bringing all of it into question. .........................................

Good point about the leaders because Not only the leaders but the people failed to bring Jesus to justice.
Thus they all were culpable in 'community responsibility' being upon them - Deuteronomy 21:1-9; Acts 3:12-15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

My perspective:
The good news of the arrival of the long-awaiting Kingdom of God is not contingent upon either Jesus death nor upon his resurrection, .................................................................................. The death and resurrection of Jesus are important, but they are not the gospel.

Yes, 'death and resurrection' is Not the gospel good news, but God's Kingdom government (Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14) is.
However, without Jesus' death and being resurrected there would be No Good News - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Because Jesus died a faithful death is why Jesus is King of God's Kingdom ( thy kingdom come........... )
This is a reason why we are all invited to ask God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Jesus to come and bring ' healing' to earth's nations as promised at Revelation 22:2
'Healing' for earth's nations as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.
Jesus can and will bring 'healing' to earth's nations - see 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....................... I will agree that the issue is the Kingdom of God that is within us… ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Was the Kingdom of God within the hate-filled Pharisees at Luke 17:20-21 because those Pharisees are the people that Jesus is speaking to in those verses. After he concluded what he said to the Pharisees 'then' he addresses his disciples.
It is Not until the next verse at Luke 17:22 that Jesus addresses his disciples.
Besides the ' kingdom of God' (Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14,18) is a real government with Jesus as King of God's Kingdom.
Jesus does Not take immediate kingly action as we can see by his illustration at Luke 19:11-15.
Kingly action is what we are asking God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20,2.
Jesus still to come in Kingly Glory (His coming 'Glory Time' - Matthew 25:31-34,37) to separate people.

 

[YoursTrue]

Do they get any of that back? Nope.

So what did Jesus sacrifice then?

Here's the situation: Jesus gave up his life. He knew what the scriptures said, so he did not go against them by rebelling and turning away from what he knew awaited him. (Death and a painful one, at that.) He knew when his time had come.

 

[YoursTrue]

What happens if an innocent man approved of by God is killed by using the law to kill him? Does the law itself become guilty? That cannot happen, so it means that Israel will suffer again, must go back into refinement.

Out of this we also get Romans 7 which ponders whether the law is evil, rejecting the idea, then reflecting guilt onto the flesh vs the spirit. The spirit he considers to be good but what spirit? Its likely the spirit of adoption. The condemnation of Jesus is taken to mean that the problem must have been his flesh, so he was rightly condemned to death because he was a human.

Paul argues here that each person is atoned (made one) with the Jewish nation if we live by the spirit. In chapter 8 he says we each have received the cry of adoption which within us cries out to the same father as the Jews. Its the heavenly Father Jesus talks about. He says our bodies, too, will be redeemed eventually. He doesn't explain but there are different ways to see this redemption. 1 Peter says that we suffer, too, and bear the weight of glory. Its not just the Jews anymore. All suffer together, now, and the name of the LORD prevents the destruction of all, now. All of this comes from the death of the innocent man Jesus.

There are those from all nations that have faith in Jesus.

 

[metis]

Was the Kingdom of God within the hate-filled Pharisees at Luke 17:20-21 because those Pharisees are the people that Jesus is speaking to in those verses. After he concluded what he said to the Pharisees 'then' he addresses his disciples.
It is Not until the next verse at Luke 17:22 that Jesus addresses his disciples.
Besides the ' kingdom of God' (Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14,18) is a real government with Jesus as King of God's Kingdom.
Jesus does Not take immediate kingly action as we can see by his illustration at Luke 19:11-15.
Kingly action is what we are asking God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20,2.
Jesus still to come in Kingly Glory (His coming 'Glory Time' - Matthew 25:31-34,37) to separate people.

Jesus was of the Pharisee tradition, so it was basically a "family dispute", and they can be really nasty at times.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Here's the situation: Jesus gave up his life. He knew what the scriptures said, so he did not go against them by rebelling and turning away from what he knew awaited him. (Death and a painful one, at that.) He knew when his time had come.

When you come back to life again , that is not dead, and certainly not a sacrifice. Sacrifice means something is lost forever and is not coming back ever. That is a sacrifice.

Pain and suffering perhaps, but I'm not aware of any scriptures saying Jesus was in pain that payed for people's sins.

 

[YoursTrue]

When you come back to life again , that is not dead, and certainly not a sacrifice. Sacrifice means something is lost forever and is not coming back ever. That is a sacrifice.

Pain and suffering perhaps, but I'm not aware of any scriptures saying Jesus was in pain that payed for people's sins.

Perhaps we can discuss what the word sacrifice means. What does it mean to you? To me right now it means giving up something of value for a reason.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Perhaps we can discuss what the word sacrifice means. What does it mean to you? To me right now it means giving up something of value for a reason.

Right, hence giving up something of value.

Sacrifice means your not getting it back ever again at a loss.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was of the Pharisee tradition, so it was basically a "family dispute", and they can be really nasty at times.

The ^above^ does Not put God's Kingdom government inside of the hate-filled Pharisees.
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees in verses Luke 17:20-21, Not his followers.
Jesus' spiritual family (aka his disciples) are the people Jesus addresses next at Luke 17:22.
So, just because Jesus was talking to the Pharisees in verses 20-21 does Not put God's Kingdom inside of them.
Rather, because Jesus was standing within their presence Jesus as coming King of God's kingdom government (Daniel 2:44, 7:13-14) was showing the Pharisees they would be overtaken by God's kingdom - Matthew 12:28; 21:5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Right, hence giving up something of value.
Sacrifice means your not getting it back ever again at a loss.

Yes, Jesus would never get back his sacrificed physical body.
This is a reason why God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly 'spirit' body - see 1st Peter 3:18 B.
Put to death in the flesh (physical) but made alive in the 'spirit' - 1st Timothy 3:16
Also, remember: 'flesh' (a physical body) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Corinthians 15;50

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.............Pain and suffering perhaps, but I'm not aware of any scriptures saying Jesus was in pain that payed for people's sins.

The old expression " everything but the kitchen sink " meaning: Nothing left to throw at Jesus.
Unlike us, Jesus could have walked away at any time.
Jesus' enemies wanted him to fail, so increased torture in their minds would do it.
Jesus dying such a faithful death showed his love for his God and for us.
Both the man Job (Job 2:4-5) and Jesus proved faithful to God under very adverse conditions.
We are all challenged that under adverse conditions we would Not remain faithful to God.
Both Job and Jesus proved all of us can prove faithful to God no matter what comes our way.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The old expression " everything but the kitchen sink " meaning: Nothing left to throw at Jesus.
Unlike us, Jesus could have walked away at any time.
Jesus' enemies wanted him to fail, so increased torture in their minds would do it.
Jesus dying such a faithful death showed his love for his God and for us.
Both the man Job (Job 2:4-5) and Jesus proved faithful to God under very adverse conditions.
We are all challenged that under adverse conditions we would Not remain faithful to God.
Both Job and Jesus proved all of us can prove faithful to God no matter what comes our way.

But Jesus, according to the narrative, didn't die and came back.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, Jesus would never get back his sacrificed physical body.
This is a reason why God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly 'spirit' body - see 1st Peter 3:18 B.
Put to death in the flesh (physical) but made alive in the 'spirit' - 1st Timothy 3:16
Also, remember: 'flesh' (a physical body) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Corinthians 15;50

Thomas and the holes in Jesus's hands after the crucifixion? Seems the physical body did return as well.

 

[pearl]

The Gospel - Is it only that Jesus died or is it that we celebrate The Resurrection?​

Actually, they are one, as in John's Gospel, ONE event, D/R, Jesus 'Lifted" up in glory.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What happens if an innocent man approved of by God is killed by using the law to kill him? Does the law itself become guilty? That cannot happen, so it means that Israel will suffer again, must go back into refinement......................

Not the Law itself to become guilty, but the fact that the Jews failed to bring Jesus to justice under the Law.
Deuteronomy 21:1-9 under the Law the people bore community responsibility (bloodguilt) by failing to bring Jesus to justice
- Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30
Blood guilt was on their hands but God exalted Jesus to give repentance to Israel - Acts 5:31.

 

[YoursTrue]

Right, hence giving up something of value.

Sacrifice means your not getting it back ever again at a loss.

Unless -- unless -- the one to whom or for whom the sacrifice was made decides to repay you. With rewards perhaps. For instance, if a son sacrifices a fortune at a loss to himself for his father who needs something badly, the father may be in a position later on to give back to his son whatever he lost plus more.
Jesus gave up his life out of love for his heavenly Father as well as mankind. And because of that, the Almighty gave Jesus more than life on earth.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yes, Jesus would never get back his sacrificed physical body.
This is a reason why God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly 'spirit' body - see 1st Peter 3:18 B.
Put to death in the flesh (physical) but made alive in the 'spirit' - 1st Timothy 3:16
Also, remember: 'flesh' (a physical body) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Corinthians 15;50

The old expression " everything but the kitchen sink " meaning: Nothing left to throw at Jesus.
Unlike us, Jesus could have walked away at any time.
Jesus' enemies wanted him to fail, so increased torture in their minds would do it.
Jesus dying such a faithful death showed his love for his God and for us.
Both the man Job (Job 2:4-5) and Jesus proved faithful to God under very adverse conditions.
We are all challenged that under adverse conditions we would Not remain faithful to God.
Both Job and Jesus proved all of us can prove faithful to God no matter what comes our way.

Not the Law itself to become guilty, but the fact that the Jews failed to bring Jesus to justice under the Law.
Deuteronomy 21:1-9 under the Law the people bore community responsibility (bloodguilt) by failing to bring Jesus to justice
- Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30
Blood guilt was on their hands but God exalted Jesus to give repentance to Israel - Acts 5:31.

The Jews do not have the convenience of knowing that the story of Jesus is true and can only view it as a what-if scenario. "What if" the law failed. "What if" an innocent man were condemned. That 'What if' is what Paul's arguments about atonement address, however Paul's arguments can be applied to Israel itself as the Son of Man (the original Son of Man).

With Israel as the Son of Man the arguments of Paul about the Son of Man continue; because in this case the Son of Man (Israel) is unfairly condemned. What is implied if the Jews are exiled by the Romans yet have been following the laws? What is implied if the Jews and Temple are destroyed, yet they don't deserve it? Has the law failed? Paul makes an argument that 'No' the law is not the problem, but the flesh is. Then the arguments for atonement by Paul based upon the death of Jesus are also arguments for atonement based upon the destruction of Jerusalem. The argument is unchanged, because its the Son of Man in both cases and an innocent is condemned in both cases. In either case Paul argues that flaw is not the law but the flesh.

 

[metis]

The ^above^ does Not put God's Kingdom government inside of the hate-filled Pharisees.

Since you are stereotyping "Pharisees", my participation on this ends.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Thomas and the holes in Jesus's hands after the crucifixion? Seems the physical body did return as well.

Materialized body. A physical body can not appear in a closed room - see John 20:14-15; later at verses 19 and 26 .
The woman at the grave yard did Not recognize the resurrected Jesus in verse 15.
Jesus presented a materialized body for doubting Thomas to see.