The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

[74x12]

Scripture teaches at Isaiah 40:26 that God used ' His Power, His Strength' to create the material world.
So, God supplied His abundantly needed high-density dynamic energy to create the visible world.
Jeremiah agrees at Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17
See also Psalms 104:30 any comments ___________________________

So you equate the might/power of God to energy? It's an interesting idea ... I don't know to be honest.

 

[Clear]

Scripture teaches at Isaiah 40:26 that God used ' His Power, His Strength' to create the material world.
So, God supplied His abundantly needed high-density dynamic energy to create the visible world.
Jeremiah agrees at Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17
See also Psalms 104:30 any comments ___________________________

Hi @URAVIP2ME

I have an interest in the texts you are describing and in the historical traditions surrounding creation. I certainly have some opinions on these texts but am not sure what sort of context you are putting these specific texts into. Can you clarify a bit more regarding what you think the author of these texts is trying to say? Can you clarify what it is you are proposing regarding God having used his "power" his "strength" and his "high-density dynamic energy" in creating the material world?

Thanks in advance

Clear
εινεειφιτωω

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hi @URAVIP2ME
I have an interest in the texts you are describing and in the historical traditions surrounding creation. I certainly have some opinions on these texts but am not sure what sort of context you are putting these specific texts into. Can you clarify a bit more regarding what you think the author of these texts is trying to say? Can you clarify what it is you are proposing regarding God having used his "power" his "strength" and his "high-density dynamic energy" in creating the material world?
Thanks in advance................εινεειφιτωω

An inquiring mind wants to know and you ask good questions.
With my limited knowledge I would say Psalms 104:30 lets us know what God uses to create- His spirit is sent forth.
Power and Strength (aka God's great power - Jeremiah 27:5 ; 32:17)
Around here Power is associated with the Power Plant, so as the grid supplies the needed energy to do something,
then God's spirit is used to do something, something creative in both the invisible realm and our visible realm.
Of course, right now God is 'resting ' from further creative works, (His Rest Day from creating is still ongoing right now)
To me what is Clear is that we will know more on the other side of Armageddon ( the war to end all wars - Psalms 46:9 )
Right now we are to concentrate on the good news of God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44; Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8

 

[Clear]

Scripture teaches at Isaiah 40:26 that God used ' His Power, His Strength' to create the material world.
So, God supplied His abundantly needed high-density dynamic energy to create the visible world.
Jeremiah agrees at Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17
See also Psalms 104:30 any comments ___________________________

Hi @URAVIP2ME

While I am not quite what you think the text you are using means in specific terms, can we start by agreeing what the text an early Christian read, would have said? I have to point out that your biblical quotes are not the same as the early Christian using their LXX would have read.

EARLY BIBLICAL TEXT OF THE SEPTUAGINT READS DIFFERENTLY THAN THE KING JAMES/MASORETIC BASED BIBLES
For examples in your first verse, Isaiah 40:26
“behold who hath created these things…” was your quote.

however, this is not what the Greek LXX Old Testament actually says.

It reads “και ιδετε τις κατεδειξε ταυτα παντα” which actually means
“and behold who has displayed all these things”

κατεδειξε does NOT refer to a creation, but instead refers to a “display, hightlight, demonstrate, show, express, etc.

You can certainly make the argument (somehow) that Isaiah was quoting the medieval hebrew of the middle ages (the Masoretic uses the word ברא which can be translated “create”). However, if Isaiah IS using a proto Hebrew text, we cannot tell which of several versions he was using. So if the Christian was reading from the LXX that Paul used (written approx. 300 b.c.) then they would have read “behold, who has displayed all these things” in this sentence and not a reference to creation.

(For Greek readers, the entire LXX for vs 26 is : Αναβλεψατε εις υψος τους οφθαλμους υμων και ιδετε τις κατεδειξε ταυτα παντα ο εκφερων κατ αριθμον τον κοσμον αυτου παντας επ ονοματι καλεσει απο πολλης δοξης και εν κρατει ισχους αυτου ουδεν σε ελαθε.)



Regarding : Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

I need to point out that this sentence occurs in the context of chapter which is making comparisons between idols “Gods that Have not made heaven and earth…” (vs 11 and earlier) and the true God who “hath made the earth…”

The observation that idols and false Gods were “helpless” and without power while the true God has power is a recurring theme in the early Jewish literature

For example, Abraham says of his Father Terah (who creates and sells Idols) : “I said in my heart, “What is this inequality of activity which my father is doing? Is it not he who is god for his gods (idols), because they come into being from his sculpting, his planning and his skill? They ought to honor my father because they are his work…” (apo Abraham ch 3:2-4) and "They have a mouth but don't speak, they have eyes but don't see" and even Terah who makes the idols, points out to Abraham that the very idols he makes "have no power" to do anything. (Bet ha-Midrasch). They cannot either help nor hurt mankind nor even protect themselves. This is one difference between the gods that man makes and the real God. This tradition is repeated in the early Jewish and Christian and Islamic literature over and over.

Similarly, Jeremiah is making the same comparison that it is not idols, but God who has made the earth and created it by his “power” and by his “wisdom” which idols do not possess.

This does not mean that “power” and “wisdom” are material things out of which the earth is made.

Another point is that the Greek of the phrase “He hath made the earth by his power…” is Κυριος ο ποιησας την γην εν τη ισχυι αυτου… The preposition εν is called the “maid of all work” among the Greek prepositions and “by his power” in this case does not literally mean “out of his power” as though power were a material thing. If so one would have expected the Greek to use the words for this such as “δια” or “δι” (through or by, or another word etc.)

The sense and meaning in this comparison is that the real God has power to do great things and the idols are powerless, idols do not have power or characteristics which allow them to make do or anything, but rather, man makes them.


In the next phrase “he hath established the world by his wisdom”, the phrase in LXX is “…ο ανορθωσας την οικουμενην εν τη σοφια αυτου…”.

The greek word rendered “established” is not a term used to create (not really even to “establish”), but to “set up”, erect, found, to improve, to recover, or remedy. For example one can use the term to right a boat that is capsized etc.

If I want a surgical eyelid lift, it is an ανορθωση λαιμου (using the same word). A Face lift is an ανόρθωση προσώπου, a "push up" bra is a να φοραω σουτειν ανορθωσης . The point is that this word doesn’t refer to a creative act, but an act of "improvement", a "setting up" or a "remedy of a problem". Thus, Benton, in the LXX renders this phrase more correctly as "who set up the world by his wisdom...".

Even the word for “world” in this phrase, is Οικουμενην and this does not refer to the entire earth or world, but merely the inhabited world (e.g. the known world, the "inhabited land"). The phrase did not use γη or κοσμοσ.

For greek readers, the sentence is : "ο ανορθωσας την οικουμενην εν τη σοφια αυτου και τη φρονησει αυτου εξετεινε τον ουρανον"

So, while the Lord is the one making the earth “in his strength” the one "seting up the world" by his wisdom and by his intellect he "stretched out the heavens", a homebuilder may use exactly the same words if he, by his own intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom and knowledge and strength builds a house out of wood or bricks. The homebuilder has power and intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom that allows him to build, but they are not materials out of which the house is built.

I just got home and it is late and I will stop here. My point is that these verses (so far) do not refer to a literal creation of a material earth out of an immaterial characteristic such as "power" or "wisdom", etc. I will have to return to the other points later as it is late for me.

I hope your journey is wonderful URAVIP2ME

Clear
εινετωτζνεω

 

[moorea944]

Hi @URAVIP2ME

While I am not quite what you think the text you are using means in specific terms, can we start by agreeing what the text an early Christian read, would have said? I have to point out that your biblical quotes are not the same as the early Christian using their LXX would have read.

EARLY BIBLICAL TEXT OF THE SEPTUAGINT READS DIFFERENTLY THAN THE KING JAMES/MASORETIC BASED BIBLES
For examples in your first verse, Isaiah 40:26
“behold who hath created these things…” was your quote.

however, this is not what the Greek LXX Old Testament actually says.

It reads “και ιδετε τις κατεδειξε ταυτα παντα” which actually means
“behold who has displayed all these things”

κατεδειξε does NOT refer to a creation, but instead refers to a “display, hightlight, demonstrate, show, express, etc.

You can certainly make the argument (somehow) that Isaiah was quoting the medieval hebrew of the middle ages (the Masoretic uses the word ברא which can be translated “create”). However, if Isaiah IS using a proto Hebrew text, we cannot tell which of several versions he was using. So if the Christian was reading from the LXX that Paul used (written approx. 300 b.c.) then they would have read “behold, who has displayed all these things” in this sentence and not a reference to creation.

(For Greek readers, the entire LXX for vs 26 is : Αναβλεψατε εις υψος τους οφθαλμους υμων και ιδετε τις κατεδειξε ταυτα παντα ο εκφερων κατ αριθμον τον κοσμον αυτου παντας επ ονοματι καλεσει απο πολλης δοξης και εν κρατει ισχους αυτου ουδεν σε ελαθε.)



Regarding : Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

I need to point out that this sentence occurs in the context of chapter which is making comparisons between idols “Gods that Have not made heaven and earth…” (vs 11 and earlier) and the true God who “hath made the earth…”

The observation that idols and false Gods were “helpless” and without power while the true God has power is a recurring theme in the early Jewish literature

For example, Abraham says of his Father Terah (who creates and sells Idols) : “I said in my heart, “What is this inequality of activity which my father is doing? Is it not he who is god for his gods (idols), because they come into being from his sculpting, his planning and his skill? They ought to honor my father because they are his work…” (apo Abraham ch 3:2-4) and "They have a mouth but don't speak, they have eyes but don't see" and even Terah who makes the idols, points out to Abraham that the very idols he makes "have no power" to do anything. (Bet ha-Midrasch). They cannot either help nor hurt mankind nor even protect themselves. This is one difference between the gods that man makes and the real God. This tradition is repeated in the early Jewish and Christian and Islamic literature over and over.

Similarly, Jeremiah is making the same comparison that it is not idols, but God who has made the earth and created it by his “power” and by his “wisdom” which idols do not possess.

This does not mean that “power” and “wisdom” are material things out of which the earth is made.

Another point is that the Greek of the phrase “He hath made the earth by his power…” is Κυριος ο ποιησας την γην εν τη ισχυι αυτου… The preposition εν is called the “maid of all work” among the Greek prepositions and “by his power” in this case does not literally mean “out of his power” as though power were a material thing. If so one would have expected the Greek to use the words for this such as “δια” or “δι” (through or by, or another word etc.)

The sense and meaning in this comparison is that the real God has power to do great things and the idols are powerless, idols do not have power or characteristics which allow them to make do or anything, but rather, man makes them.


In the next phrase “he hath established the world by his wisdom”, the phrase in LXX is “…ο ανορθωσας την οικουμενην εν τη σοφια αυτου…”.

The greek word rendered “established” is not a term used to create (not really even to “establish”), but to “set up”, erect, found, to improve, to recover, or remedy. For example one can use the term to right a boat that is capsized etc.

If I want a surgical eyelid lift, it is an ανορθωση λαιμου (using the same word). A Face lift is an ανόρθωση προσώπου, a "push up" bra is a να φοραω σουτειν ανορθωσης . The point is that this word doesn’t refer to a creative act, but an act of "improvement", a "setting up" or a "remedy of a problem". Thus, Benton, in the LXX renders this phrase more correctly as "who set up the world by his wisdom...".

Even the word for “world” in this phrase, is Οικουμενην and this does not refer to the entire earth or world, but merely the inhabited world (e.g. the known world, the "inhabited land"). The phrase did not use γη or κοσμοσ.

For greek readers, the sentence is : "ο ανορθωσας την οικουμενην εν τη σοφια αυτου και τη φρονησει αυτου εξετεινε τον ουρανον"

So, while the Lord is the one making the earth “in his strength” the one "seting up the world" by his wisdom and by his intellect he "stretched out the heavens", a homebuilder may use exactly the same words if he, by his own intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom and knowledge and strength builds a house out of wood or bricks. The homebuilder has power and intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom that allows him to build, but they are not materials out of which the house is built.

I just got home and it is late and I will stop here. My point is that these verses (so far) do not refer to a literal creation of a material earth out of an immaterial characteristic such as "power" or "wisdom", etc. I will have to return to the other points later as it is late for me.

I hope your journey is wonderful URAVIP2ME

Clear
εινετωτζνεω

[My point is that these verses (so far) do not refer to a literal creation of a material earth out of an immaterial characteristic such as "power" or "wisdom",]
[The homebuilder has power and intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom that allows him to build, but they are not materials out of which the house is built.]

Interesting post. But I'm really not sure on what your trying to say here. You keep on mentioning a "material" earth or creation. Why not just earth.. Are you saying that God didnt use his power and spirit to create the earth, world and universe? Just curious because you keep on bringing other things in.... But no worries.

 

[Clear]

1) HISTORICAL CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN CREATION REFERRED TO THIS REAL WORLD

Moorea944 said : Interesting post. But I'm really not sure on what your trying to say here. You keep on mentioning a "material" earth or creation. Why not just earth.. (post #785)

Hi @moorea944 ;

In the prior debate, I posted that,
1) historically, the early Judeo-Christian literature describes the early belief that in Genesis 1:1, God created the earth out of pre-existing matter rather than out of "nothing".
I also said
2) this early Judeo-Christian belief seemed to me to be more rational and more logical than the later adoption of the belief that God created material things out of “nothing”.

Oeste in post #774 countered that “…The imaginer, for example, is a creator who has originated a world that did not exist prior to his thinking it up…It is a something that is made out of nothing…”

The Christians were not believing in an immaterial “imagined” world or in an immaterial "day dream" of a world, but they were referring to this actual, real, material world that humans live on. So, I referred to a “material world” to keep the reference in the real world and not in dreams or imagined “creations” that Oeste attempted to refer to.


2) THE CHARACTERISTICS OF INTELLIGENCE AND POWER ARE NOT MATERIAL OBJECTS
Moorea944 asked : “Are you saying that God didnt use his power and spirit to create the earth, world and universe? “.

No, I believe God DID use his power and his intelligence and his personal characteristics to make the earth.
I do not believe that the characteristics of "intelligence", or "Power", or "creativity" are actual materials out of which the world is made.
“Power” for example, as a characteristic, is not an actual “material” out of which a material object can be made any more than intelligence or humor, or vision, or feelings are material objects.


3) HOW GOD CREATED THIS MATERIAL WORLD - OUT OF MATTER OR OUT OF "NOTHING"
In Oeste’s modern religion, for example, “there is nothing” besides God in existence when God begins His creative act of Genesis 1:1.

Whereas in the early Judeo-Christianity, matter exists at this specific time and is used to create this material world(s).

The two competing doctrines are whether God created material worlds out of “nothing” in a supernatural way contrary to logic and rational thought or if God created material worlds out of matter in a natural way in concert with logical and rational thought.

I hope this clears things up and I hope your spiritual journey in this life is wonderful Moorea944

Clear
εινετωφιδρω

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hi @URAVIP2ME
While I am not quite what you think the text you are using means in specific terms, can we start by agreeing what the text an early Christian read, would have said? I have to point out that your biblical quotes are not the same as the early Christian using their LXX would have read.
EARLY BIBLICAL TEXT OF THE SEPTUAGINT READS DIFFERENTLY THAN THE KING JAMES/MASORETIC BASED BIBLES
For examples in your first verse, Isaiah 40:26
“behold who hath created these things…” was your quote.

however, this is not what the Greek LXX Old Testament actually says.

It reads “και ιδετε τις κατεδειξε ταυτα παντα” which actually means
“and behold who has displayed all these things”

κατεδειξε does NOT refer to a creation, but instead refers to a “display, hightlight, demonstrate, show, express, etc.

You can certainly make the argument (somehow) that Isaiah was quoting the medieval hebrew of the middle ages (the Masoretic uses the word ברא which can be translated “create”). However, if Isaiah IS using a proto Hebrew text, we cannot tell which of several versions he was using. So if the Christian was reading from the LXX that Paul used (written approx. 300 b.c.) then they would have read “behold, who has displayed all these things” in this sentence and not a reference to creation.

(For Greek readers, the entire LXX for vs 26 is : Αναβλεψατε εις υψος τους οφθαλμους υμων και ιδετε τις κατεδειξε ταυτα παντα ο εκφερων κατ αριθμον τον κοσμον αυτου παντας επ ονοματι καλεσει απο πολλης δοξης και εν κρατει ισχους αυτου ουδεν σε ελαθε.)



Regarding : Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

I need to point out that this sentence occurs in the context of chapter which is making comparisons between idols “Gods that Have not made heaven and earth…” (vs 11 and earlier) and the true God who “hath made the earth…”

The observation that idols and false Gods were “helpless” and without power while the true God has power is a recurring theme in the early Jewish literature

For example, Abraham says of his Father Terah (who creates and sells Idols) : “I said in my heart, “What is this inequality of activity which my father is doing? Is it not he who is god for his gods (idols), because they come into being from his sculpting, his planning and his skill? They ought to honor my father because they are his work…” (apo Abraham ch 3:2-4) and "They have a mouth but don't speak, they have eyes but don't see" and even Terah who makes the idols, points out to Abraham that the very idols he makes "have no power" to do anything. (Bet ha-Midrasch). They cannot either help nor hurt mankind nor even protect themselves. This is one difference between the gods that man makes and the real God. This tradition is repeated in the early Jewish and Christian and Islamic literature over and over.

Similarly, Jeremiah is making the same comparison that it is not idols, but God who has made the earth and created it by his “power” and by his “wisdom” which idols do not possess.

This does not mean that “power” and “wisdom” are material things out of which the earth is made.

Another point is that the Greek of the phrase “He hath made the earth by his power…” is Κυριος ο ποιησας την γην εν τη ισχυι αυτου… The preposition εν is called the “maid of all work” among the Greek prepositions and “by his power” in this case does not literally mean “out of his power” as though power were a material thing. If so one would have expected the Greek to use the words for this such as “δια” or “δι” (through or by, or another word etc.)

The sense and meaning in this comparison is that the real God has power to do great things and the idols are powerless, idols do not have power or characteristics which allow them to make do or anything, but rather, man makes them.


In the next phrase “he hath established the world by his wisdom”, the phrase in LXX is “…ο ανορθωσας την οικουμενην εν τη σοφια αυτου…”.

The greek word rendered “established” is not a term used to create (not really even to “establish”), but to “set up”, erect, found, to improve, to recover, or remedy. For example one can use the term to right a boat that is capsized etc.

If I want a surgical eyelid lift, it is an ανορθωση λαιμου (using the same word). A Face lift is an ανόρθωση προσώπου, a "push up" bra is a να φοραω σουτειν ανορθωσης . The point is that this word doesn’t refer to a creative act, but an act of "improvement", a "setting up" or a "remedy of a problem". Thus, Benton, in the LXX renders this phrase more correctly as "who set up the world by his wisdom...".

Even the word for “world” in this phrase, is Οικουμενην and this does not refer to the entire earth or world, but merely the inhabited world (e.g. the known world, the "inhabited land"). The phrase did not use γη or κοσμοσ.

For greek readers, the sentence is : "ο ανορθωσας την οικουμενην εν τη σοφια αυτου και τη φρονησει αυτου εξετεινε τον ουρανον"

So, while the Lord is the one making the earth “in his strength” the one "seting up the world" by his wisdom and by his intellect he "stretched out the heavens", a homebuilder may use exactly the same words if he, by his own intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom and knowledge and strength builds a house out of wood or bricks. The homebuilder has power and intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom that allows him to build, but they are not materials out of which the house is built.

I just got home and it is late and I will stop here. My point is that these verses (so far) do not refer to a literal creation of a material earth out of an immaterial characteristic such as "power" or "wisdom", etc. I will have to return to the other points later as it is late for me.

I hope your journey is wonderful URAVIP2ME

Clear
εινετωτζνεω

I find in the Hebrew Scriptures at Isaiah 40:26 it is telling us 'how' God 'created ' (Not just that God created )
... by the abundance of His POWER and by vigor of His STRENGTH, ........

The footnote for Isaiah 40:18-26 says: Isaiah asks incredulously how the idolaters could mistake their man-made toys for... God. How can anyone fail to realize that the world in all its grandeur must have a Creator?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

[My point is that these verses (so far) do not refer to a literal creation of a material earth out of an immaterial characteristic such as "power" or "wisdom",]
[The homebuilder has power and intellect and craftsmanship and wisdom that allows him to build, but they are not materials out of which the house is built.]
Interesting post. But I'm really not sure on what your trying to say here. You keep on mentioning a "material" earth or creation. Why not just earth.. Are you saying that God didn't use his power and spirit to create the earth, world and universe? Just curious because you keep on bringing other things in.... But no worries.

Yes, God used His spirit to create the Earth and all visible and invisible creation - Psalms 104:30
God's power and strength are Not material but Energy.
God supplied the abundantly needed dynamic power and strength to create both the invisible and visible creation.

 

[Terral]

Hi 74x12:

Thank you for starting this topic.

In the book of John it's pretty obvious that the author is saying that Jesus is God.

No. Scripture and John the Baptist say clearly that Jesus Christ is the "Son of God."

"I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.” John 1:34.

Jesus Christ is clearly the "Son of God."

John 1:1 makes that much easily clear. The Word was with God and the Word was God.

No. Let's begin at the beginning in Genesis 1:1:

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 17.​

God is the spirit witness, Heaven-Word (John 1:1-3) is the blood witness, and the Earth-Creation-All Things is the water witness. These are the same three witnesses from the first three verses (tabernacle form) of the Gospel of John that say [my notes]:

"In the beginning was the Word [Heaven], and the Word [Heaven] was with God, and the Word [Heaven] was God. He [Heaven] was in the beginning with God. All things [Earth] came into being through Him [Heaven], and apart from Him [Heaven] nothing came into being that has come into being." John 1:1-3.

1. God is God (The Almighty) where infinite "gods" (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34-36) are members of God's body.

2. Heaven is the Word where "My Father who is in HEAVEN" (my OP) gets His name.

3. Earth is all things broken into the heavens, heaven and earth from Genesis 1:6-8.

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 320.​

The three witnesses from Genesis 1:1 (God, Heaven, Earth) are in reality three separate realms-kingdoms where the Kingdom of God (Fig 1) is Infinite, the Kingdom of His Beloved Son (Heaven = Fig 2) is almost infinite, and the Kingdom of This Word (Earth = Fig 3) is finite. The reason John 1:1 says the Word (Heaven) "was" God is because God "and" His Word are indeed "One" in God's Infinite Realm right now as we speak and "Heaven-Word" is a mere "incarnation." That is the message Christ is conveying later in the Gospel of John:

"Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’ [Ps. 82:6]? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? John 10:34-36.

God's Word, and John the Baptist, and God's incarnate Word (John 1:14) all proclaim that Jesus Christ is the "Son of God."

Jewish authorship:
The arguments from Arianism that this is speaking of "a" god are flawed for a few reasons. First of all the author is a Jew and that's not a Jewish idea. The author is obviously familiar with the Torah and it's commandments. Including "Hear oh Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah." And "Thou shalt have no other elohim before me."

So the concept of two gods is against Judaism and it's silly to think that the Jewish author of John would be promoting the worship of two gods.

Consider that "The Almighty" (Rev. 1:8) is "God" from Genesis 1 who works until resting in Genesis 2:3, and that Jesus Christ (Heaven-Word incarnate) is the "Lord God" of Genesis 2:4+ who formed Adam and the Garden (Gen. 2:7-8) part of His consecration work on this seventh day. In that case, God (The Almighty) has made His Son (Christ) to be "God" over Israel, as it is written,

"But of the Son He [God] says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom [Fig 2 above]. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God [the Son, Lord God of Gen. 2, Christ], Your God [The Almighty, God of Gen. 1], has anointed You [the Son] With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” Hebrews 1:8-9.

The simple truth is that God, The Almighty, appointed His incarnate Heaven-Word-Son of God as "God" over Israel for the duration of this seventh day to deal with the sons of Adam (generations: Gen. 2:4+). Therefore, the Lord God speaking to Israel, Moses and the Prophets in the OT is the Lamb of God incarnate on this world as Jesus Christ. However, for us (Body of Christ), there is "one Lord (Eph. 4:5, Jesus Christ) "and" one God and Father (God of Gen. 1, The Almighty) of all who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:4-6.

Influence from Greek philosophy? (snip)...

No. Everything in the OP beyond this point assumes that the Gospel of John writer confuses The Almighty (God) with the Word incarnate (Jn 1:14) Jesus Christ who is the Lord God (Lamb of God) from Genesis 2:4+. There is one God "and" one "Lord God" who is the "Son of God" appointed by God to be "God" over Israel as clearly taught in Hebrews 1.

Blessings,

Terral

 

[Muffled]

IT's not the same glory. Since Jesus did not pre-exist, what was the glory that his father had? God loved his son even before he was born. Like us, didnt we love our children before they were born? Didnt we do things for them before they were born? It's the same. God even created the world with his son in mind.

I believe "not the same glory" is not in the text. That means you are putting a worldly interpretation on it.

I believe that is the proof that He is God because it is God that has always existed and has always had the glory.

I believe there is no statement to that effect so you are speculating.

I believe I could not rule that out because God tends to envision the beginning to the end but I haven't seen any statement to that affect.

 

[Muffled]

Hi @Muffled

I like the point that you made that the Messiah Jesus, (who, in early Judeo-Christian worldview, pre-existed with the Father as "the Word" (John 1:1), also received and deserved some degree of glory even before his incarnation. I feel as though there are many roles the messiah played both before and after his birth for which we owe him our deepest gratitude, but which we, typically, do not consider.

Clear
ειακφιτζτωω

I believe that view is in error. It is God who has always existed as the "Word" and only becomes Jesus as God inhabits flesh. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father

I believe God always has glory whether in the flesh or not. It is not a matter of degree because there is no actual division but simply a dichotomy in the way it is perceived.

I believe the only role before His birth is that of the prophecy of Messiah.

 

[Muffled]

Scripture teaches at Isaiah 40:26 that God used ' His Power, His Strength' to create the material world.
So, God supplied His abundantly needed high-density dynamic energy to create the visible world.
Jeremiah agrees at Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17
See also Psalms 104:30 any comments ___________________________

I believe it is difficult to imagine something coming from nothing but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Probably that lack of imagination results in the Hindu concept that everything is created out of God which mirrors your thinking here.

 

[74x12]

Hi 74x12:

Thank you for starting this topic.


No. Scripture and John the Baptist say clearly that Jesus Christ is the "Son of God."


Jesus Christ is clearly the "Son of God."


No. Let's begin at the beginning in Genesis 1:1:

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 17.​

God is the spirit witness, Heaven-Word (John 1:1-3) is the blood witness, and the Earth-Creation-All Things is the water witness. These are the same three witnesses from the first three verses (tabernacle form) of the Gospel of John that say [my notes]:


1. God is God (The Almighty) where infinite "gods" (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34-36) are members of God's body.

2. Heaven is the Word where "My Father who is in HEAVEN" (my OP) gets His name.

3. Earth is all things broken into the heavens, heaven and earth from Genesis 1:6-8.

Credit Terral Croft, The Mystery Explained, Nov. 2017, Page 320.​

The three witnesses from Genesis 1:1 (God, Heaven, Earth) are in reality three separate realms-kingdoms where the Kingdom of God (Fig 1) is Infinite, the Kingdom of His Beloved Son (Heaven = Fig 2) is almost infinite, and the Kingdom of This Word (Earth = Fig 3) is finite. The reason John 1:1 says the Word (Heaven) "was" God is because God "and" His Word are indeed "One" in God's Infinite Realm right now as we speak and "Heaven-Word" is a mere "incarnation." That is the message Christ is conveying later in the Gospel of John:


God's Word, and John the Baptist, and God's incarnate Word (John 1:14) all proclaim that Jesus Christ is the "Son of God."


Consider that "The Almighty" (Rev. 1:8) is "God" from Genesis 1 who works until resting in Genesis 2:3, and that Jesus Christ (Heaven-Word incarnate) is the "Lord God" of Genesis 2:4+ who formed Adam and the Garden (Gen. 2:7-8) part of His consecration work on this seventh day. In that case, God (The Almighty) has made His Son (Christ) to be "God" over Israel, as it is written,


The simple truth is that God, The Almighty, appointed His incarnate Heaven-Word-Son of God as "God" over Israel for the duration of this seventh day to deal with the sons of Adam (generations: Gen. 2:4+). Therefore, the Lord God speaking to Israel, Moses and the Prophets in the OT is the Lamb of God incarnate on this world as Jesus Christ. However, for us (Body of Christ), there is "one Lord (Eph. 4:5, Jesus Christ) "and" one God and Father (God of Gen. 1, The Almighty) of all who is over all and through all and in all." Eph. 4:4-6.

No. Everything in the OP beyond this point assumes that the Gospel of John writer confuses The Almighty (God) with the Word incarnate (Jn 1:14) Jesus Christ who is the Lord God (Lamb of God) from Genesis 2:4+. There is one God "and" one "Lord God" who is the "Son of God" appointed by God to be "God" over Israel as clearly taught in Hebrews 1.

Blessings,

Terral

Why do you have to break God up into 3 or 2?

 

[moorea944]

I believe "not the same glory" is not in the text. That means you are putting a worldly interpretation on it.

I believe that is the proof that He is God because it is God that has always existed and has always had the glory.

I believe there is no statement to that effect so you are speculating.

I believe I could not rule that out because God tends to envision the beginning to the end but I haven't seen any statement to that affect.

"Not in the text........." interesting that you said that. A few things on that one. Dont you bring in words that arent in the text too? And not just you, but other people too. Incarnate, God the Son, Jesus is God, etc, etc. I can keep on going if you want.... Isnt it you.. that is putting worldly interpretations on things?

 

[Clear]

URAVIP2ME said : “I find in the Hebrew Scriptures at Isaiah 40:26 it is telling us 'how' God 'created ' (Not just that God created)”

Hi URAVIP2ME

1) REGARDING ISAIAH 40:26 - "CREATING" VS "DISPLAYING" CREATIONS
We all interpret texts and apply meaning to them. While you could be right or wrong regarding your theological model, my point was that there is no word for “created” in Isaiah 40:26 in the early O.T. that the early Christians read. In their text, their Isaiah read differently than your text. Their text did not say God “created” in their Isaiah 40:26.

Their Greek LXX Old Testament actually says “και ιδετε τις κατεδειξε ταυτα παντα..” which means
“and behold who has displayed all these things”. So, for THEM, the text did not have direct reference to how God created, but rather, that he displays his creation.

Thus, while I agree with you that God creates by virtue of his power and intelligence, I was simply pointing out that this specific text does not reference creating, but instead references that he displays all these things he made. Also, I think your point about the foot-note is well taken and relevant to the text. Thanks.


REGARDING PSALMS 104:30 (103:30 IN LXX) AND IT'S INTERPRETATION

You quoted Psalms 104:30 (103 in LXX) Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Masoretic based) You then interpret it to mean that
“God used His spirit to create the Earth and all visible and invisible creation.” (URAVIP2ME in post #788)

I agree with you that God sends his sent his spirit (or "a spirit" ) out to accomplish his will. This does not tell us that things are created out of the spirit as though the spirit is a material which things are made OF, but rather it is the spirit that God sends out which then accomplishes the work of creation.

If I can simply point out a specific point that will make sense to the historians who read this (though others may not care). Regarding the Greek text that the ancient Christians would have read. The Greek of this text is εχαποστελεις το πνευμα σου και κτισθησονται, και ανακαινιεις το προσωπον της γης. Thus, the early Christians would have read a text that uses a future tense. That is, “You send the spirit (of yours) out and they shall be created…"


I think your points are good points URAVIP2ME.

Thanks

Clear
εινεδρδρδρω

 

[Clear]

Hi @URAVIP2ME

1) Regarding your belief that God supplied his "high-density dynamic energy" to make the earth.

I do think you are certainly correct that God used energy to form the material earth, but as to the specifics of how this was done, I cannot say with my limited understanding.

I can say that the early Judeo-Christian literature describes their belief that God created the earth of pre-existing matter rather than making the earth out of "nothing".

I believe your point that energy was involved is logical and rational. Sometimes the text itself seems to assume this.

For example, in post #651, you referred to Psalms 90:2 in reference to whether Jesus was present before creation. The King James says regarding creation : “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world….” The two words of interest regarding creation are “brought forth” (the mountains) and “formed” (the earth).

The actual Hebrew also uses two different words for the creation of the mountains and the earth. : …בְּטֶרֶם, הָרִים יֻלָּדוּ-- וַתְּחוֹלֵל אֶרֶץ
The base word for the mountains being “brought forth” is the same as the word for “giving birth”. Thus, some translations (e.g. Green) may use the phrase “Before the mountains were born…”. (There is symbolism underlying this wording. )

Similarly, there is symbolism underlying the word used in the Hebrew of the phrase” thou hadst formed the earth…”. The base word is not to create per se, nor does it mean create out of “nothing”. The base word חול , while it can mean to make something, the symbolism surrounding the use of this word involves an energetic process. For example, it means to twist, whirl, and thus, “to dance” to hurl or writhe, to be in pain (thus a symbolic connection to the delivery process at birth). None of these are passive processes, but all meanings have energetic undertones (as your theory suggests...).

The earlier Greek for this verse, uses the word Plasthenai, (...και πλασθηναι την γην...), referring to the "forming' of the earth. Plastenai is related to our english word “plastic” and it is a formation of a substrate to produce a new thing which did not exist in it’s present form (before it was formed).

My point is that while I very much agree with your theory that energy seems to have been involved in the creation of this material earth and the scriptures and even the early apocalypses describe a process of formation which uses energy (how can it be otherwise?), this energy seems related to a process of operating upon matter rather than energy being the final substrate out of which the material earth was made. While your theory could be correct, I personally don’t have enough physics background to have an informed opinion on the actual process of creation. My background and interest is historical and not physics. Good luck.

In any case @URAVIP2ME , I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful and full of joy.

Clear
εινεδρακφυω

 

[Clear]

Hi @URAVIP2ME

Just a note regarding your use of Psalms 90:2, which you concluded that “scripture does not teach that god used material matter to create the visible world” (Post #653)

I might point out that this very scripture you used to support this theory actually DOES assume matter was used in the creation of the material world.

For example, in the LXX O.T. of early Christianity the greek verse says : προ του ορη γεηθηναι και πλασθηναι την γην και την οικουμενην και απο του αιωνος και εως του αιωνος συ ει (89:2). This meant : "“Before the mountains were brought forth (literally “born”/came into existence...) and were molded, you existed before the earth and world and from [the] eon (past) and until the eon (future).


1) THE TEXTUAL ASSUMPTION - WAS A SUBSTRATE (MATTER) USED IN "MOLDING" OR WAS "NOTHING" MOLDED. -WHAT DOES THE TEXT ASSUME?

The point is that the verse uses the word πλασθηναι (plasthenai) which is a term for a fabrication of a thing through the specific process of molding or shaping of what one starts out with. This is the same base word for the English word “plastic” and is is used for the process that a sculptor uses in “molding” or “forming”. While sculpting can involve a cutting away from the original substrate, the process assumes an original material substrate.

Even the ancient metaphorical use of πλασθηναι used in early literature such as when one “molds” a person by education or training into a craftsman, or into a skilled person, the word still assumes one starts with an original person or object and changes it (almost always it refers to an improvement of some sort) into a final product that is different than the original. Thus is it’s ancient usage assumed a substrate of some sort when an object was forged or fabricated from that substrate.

Even it’s ancient metaphorical usage in the early literature such as “putting on a good face” or it’s use for “forgery” still assumed one started with and use an original object which is somehow changed.

The point is, that while you, as a modern reader, read into the text your interpretation that material matter was not used, the ancient writer and ancient readers of such texts assumed that matter WAS used in the formation and molding of objects that the text described. This does not mean that your theory that energy was used is incorrect, merely that the energy used, worked upon matter as well.

Clear
εινεφισεειω

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hi @URAVIP2ME
Just a note regarding your use of Psalms 90:2, which you concluded that “scripture does not teach that god used material matter to create the visible world” (Post #653)
I might point out that this very scripture you used to support this theory actually DOES assume matter was used in the creation of the material world.
For example, in the LXX O.T. of early Christianity the greek verse says : προ του ορη γεηθηναι και πλασθηναι την γην και την οικουμενην και απο του αιωνος και εως του αιωνος συ ει (89:2). This meant : "“Before the mountains were brought forth (literally “born”/came into existence...) and were molded, you existed before the earth and world and from [the] eon (past) and until the eon (future).
1) THE TEXTUAL ASSUMPTION - WAS A SUBSTRATE (MATTER) USED IN "MOLDING" OR WAS "NOTHING" MOLDED. -WHAT DOES THE TEXT ASSUME?
The point is that the verse uses the word πλασθηναι (plasthenai) which is a term for a fabrication of a thing through the specific process of molding or shaping of what one starts out with. This is the same base word for the English word “plastic” and is is used for the process that a sculptor uses in “molding” or “forming”. While sculpting can involve a cutting away from the original substrate, the process assumes an original material substrate.
Even the ancient metaphorical use of πλασθηναι used in early literature such as when one “molds” a person by education or training into a craftsman, or into a skilled person, the word still assumes one starts with an original person or object and changes it (almost always it refers to an improvement of some sort) into a final product that is different than the original. Thus is it’s ancient usage assumed a substrate of some sort when an object was forged or fabricated from that substrate.
Even it’s ancient metaphorical usage in the early literature such as “putting on a good face” or it’s use for “forgery” still assumed one started with and use an original object which is somehow changed.
The point is, that while you, as a modern reader, read into the text your interpretation that material matter was not used, the ancient writer and ancient readers of such texts assumed that matter WAS used in the formation and molding of objects that the text described. This does not mean that your theory that energy was used is incorrect, merely that the energy used, worked upon matter as well.
Clear
εινεφισεειω

Since Isaiah 40:26 says about God's POWER and STRENGTH then that is what God used to create matter.

 

[Clear]

Hi @URAVIP2ME

The scripture you quote is : Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. (kjv)

URAVIP2ME concludes : “Since Isaiah 40:26 says about God's POWER and STRENGTH then that is what God used to create matter.” (post #798)

Your text has three phrases regarding "power", "strength" and "creating"
1) “…behold who hath created these things
2) “…he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might
3) “…For that he is strong in power.


CAN YOU CLARIFY SPECIFICS OF THE CONTEXT AND YOUR INTERPRETATION OF YOUR EXAMPLE TEXT
Are you theorizing that any of these phrases mean that God used Power and strength to create the material earth from absolutely nothing?
Are you theorizing that these phrases means that God used Power and strength to operate upon and form existing matter into the material earth?


ONE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO COMPETING THEORIES
There is at least one major difference between these two competing theories of God creating out of absolutely nothing versus God creating out of existing matter. One theory is illogical and supernatural (illogical and magical) and the other is logical and is accord with what we see happening in nature (logical and natural).

The earlier Judeo-Christian theory where “God created material world from existing matter” is in accordance with natural observation and follows the logical and rational creation of things we can observe happening, such as when a sculptor creates a statue out of an existing substrate.
The later theory where “God created material worlds from absolutely nothing” is supernatural and magical in that it does not follow logical or rational or natural creation of things.


THERE ARE OTHER, PHILOSOPHICAL AND THEOLOGICAL IMPLICATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH EACH OF THESE CONFLICTING THEORIES
Theologists and philosophers offer other differences such as moral implications. They point out that IF God is omniscient and omnipotent then he would have known his creation was going to cause a great deal of evil and suffering (because of omniscience) while at the same time he had power to create a world that had no evil and suffering (because of omnipotence). Yet he created a world which has terrible suffering and in which terrible evil exists.

IF God created absolutely all things out of absolutely nothing evil does not exist before he creates but then does exist AFTER he creates, then he is the origin of evil and suffering that he could have prevented.

If, as the early Judeo-Christian text Pistis Sophia describes, that spirit is “self-willed” matter, then certain types of matter has it’s own characteristics such as will as part of it’s own nature and God is not responsible for all evils and suffering.

There are other differences, but the point is that there are multiple important effects that the later theory of God creating out of absolutely “nothing” itself, creates.


Can you give us readers specific clarification regarding your personal interpretation as to how this specific scripture supports whichever theory you are offering readers?


Thanks in advance for more clarification URAVIP2E


Clear
εινεφυφυφιω

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Isaiah 40:26 I find does mention God's POWER and STRENGTH in connection to creation.
Jeremiah 10:12 says God made the Earth by His POWER
Jeremiah 27:5 says God made the Earth by His GREAT POWER
Jeremiah 32:17 says God made Heaven and Earth by His GREAT POWER
Psalms 104:5 lets us know God laid the foundations of the Earth that is should Not be removed forever.
Psalms 104:30 says God sends forth His spirit and they are created.
So, God's spirit is connected to God's POWER and God's STRENGTH in connection to things being created.