The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

[Muffled]

Fact-- trinity teachers=Jesus is God--Jesus=He has a God--Who is correct? Who should be believed? I choose Jesus--He is the way, the truth and the life.

I believe God has Himself as God and no one else. If you believe otherwise you are not understanding when He says He is a jealous God.

 

[Muffled]

But, I'm not Trinitarian. Ever heard of Sabellianism or any other type of Oneness?

Jesus is God and has a God; both are correct. Because with Jesus you have flesh and Spirit. Clearly, the flesh is created but the Spirit can be eternal. Even Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. So, if Jesus could preexist birth as an angel; then He can be conceived to preexist as God.

However, even if you assumed for a moment (For the sake of argument) that I was right and that Jesus did preexist birth as God. Yet, because God created Himself a body to dwell in on earth; means that at least the flesh and blood body of Jesus has a Creator and therefore has a God. Do you follow my logic?

I believe I have heard of Sabelius who is considered a heretic. I don't have any problem with that since I have been considered one on this subject as well. Sabellius is in error because he likens the Trinity to one person playing three parts. That breaks down because there is only one singular body and that is Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

I disagree with the "Three in one" doctrine because it's not in the Bible. I believe "These three are one" is more accurate.

The trinity is three distinct persons in one God. So to get into philosophy for a second. What is a "person"? Isn't it a distinct entity? Someone with a separate mind if you will? So what you end up with is 3 minds of God. 3 different persons in God. I find the idea to be unbelievable. To me the unity of God is really sacred. I would never believe God had more than one mind. Except for in the case of Jesus Christ who being incarnate had a human mind.

I believe many people fall into the area of confusing person definitions. God has only one personality. Jesus has two personalities: the personality of God and the personality of the body. The Paraclete (Holy Spirit) has a myriad of personalities in conjunction with the Spirit of God's personality.

The explanation I have is that the distinctiveness of two members having multiple personalities makes each member of the Trinity a person. The only dictionary definition of person in this regard is that of a member of the Trinity.

 

[74x12]

I believe I have heard of Sabelius who is considered a heretic. I don't have any problem with that since I have been considered one on this subject as well. Sabellius is in error because he likens the Trinity to one person playing three parts. That breaks down because there is only one singular body and that is Jesus.

What we know of Sabelius; we learn from his enemies; they've likely burned all his own writings if he had any. But, I do not think Sabellius is denying that Jesus is fully human and fully God. He agrees with the doctrine of the hypostatic union as far as I know.

 

[kjw47]

I believe God has Himself as God and no one else. If you believe otherwise you are not understanding when He says He is a jealous God.

YHVH(Jehovah) gave the commandment--Thou shalt not have ANY other god before your face. The single being God of Israel- Jesus' God. The God Jesus was taught his first 30 years. The God he points all to. Those serving a non existent trinity are being mislead into breaking that #1 commandment daily. I am trying to prevent that.

 

[metis]

YHVH(Jehovah) gave the commandment--Thou shalt not have ANY other god before your face. The single being God of Israel- Jesus' God. The God Jesus was taught his first 30 years. The God he points all to. Those serving a non existent trinity are being mislead into breaking that #1 commandment daily. I am trying to prevent that.

The Trinitarian concept posits one God, not three.

From the Nicene Creed:
"We believe in one God, ..."

 

[kjw47]

The Trinitarian concept posits one God, not three.

From the Nicene Creed:
"We believe in one God, ..."

Then how does God have a God? Jesus has a God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12

 

[metis]

Then how does God have a God? Jesus has a God--John 20:17, Rev 3:12

Because Jesus is not the Father, plus the reference in the Nicene Creed deals with the "essence" of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which we've covered before.

 

[kjw47]

Because Jesus is not the Father, plus the reference in the Nicene Creed deals with the "essence" of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which we've covered before.

The bible teaches. Jesus was created-Proverbs 8:22-26--Collosians 1:15

 

[metis]

The bible teaches. Jesus was created-Proverbs 8:22-26--Collosians 1:15

Yes, but that simply does not refute what "essence" is in the context of Jesus and the Holy Spirit vis-a-vis God the Father. Maybe you're unfamiliar with what "essence" means in that context, so let me link you to a source that explains this: Essence - Wikipedia

 

[kjw47]

Yes, but that simply does not refute what "essence" is in the context of Jesus and the Holy Spirit vis-a-vis God the Father. Maybe you're unfamiliar with what "essence" means in that context, so let me link you to a source that explains this: Essence - Wikipedia

I appreciate you trying to help me but i know what it means. Fact says--YHVH is a single being God. And that trinity scholars twist it into oblivion, misleading all who listen to their confusion. And men seeing the confusion turned those religions into a house divided--( Mark 3:24-26) they will not stand.

 

[74x12]

YHVH(Jehovah) gave the commandment--Thou shalt not have ANY other god before your face. The single being God of Israel- Jesus' God. The God Jesus was taught his first 30 years. The God he points all to. Those serving a non existent trinity are being mislead into breaking that #1 commandment daily. I am trying to prevent that.

... Jesus in the flesh had a God, a Creator. Psalm 139:14 certainly applies.

Because Jesus is not the Father, plus the reference in the Nicene Creed deals with the "essence" of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which we've covered before.

Jesus had a God because of the hypostatic union. Which even trinitarian scholars admit. The trinity doctrine postulates that all 3 persons are "co-equal" that means they are not to be considered as subordinate to another person. "God the Son" cannot be considered subordinate to "God the Father" or else they are no longer "co-equal".

The bible teaches. Jesus was created-Proverbs 8:22-26--Collosians 1:15

Proverbs 8 is about the personification of wisdom as a female. Jesus is a male. So you will need to explain that. Besides, it's just really a nice spin to take Solomon's profound exposition of wisdom as a woman trying to teach people and try to make it into a literal history of Jesus Christ the Son of God. Thus making Him instead the daughter of God.

Finally, Solomon also personifies foolishness as a loud woman who entices people to do stupid things. (Proverbs 9:13-18) So explain that one; if wisdom is a literal person then is foolishness also a literal being?

I appreciate you trying to help me but i know what it means. Fact says--YHVH is a single being God. And that trinity scholars twist it into oblivion, misleading all who listen to their confusion. And men seeing the confusion turned those religions into a house divided--( Mark 3:24-26) they will not stand.

The thing about all that is that I agree with you that the trinity doctrine is confusing and man made but that doesn't mean you are therefore automatically correct. Without the N.W.T.; JWs don't have an argument. That's why they need it so much. The Textus Receptus is the most reliable Bible because people that respected and cared for the scriptures kept them safe and cherished them through centuries.

So if you want to dig up some old manuscripts transcribed by likely heretics and base your own Bible "version" on it; then I guess that's your prerogative. But if you want to the safest or most trustworthy scriptures then you have to use the Textus Receptus.

 

[metis]

I appreciate you trying to help me but i know what it means. Fact says--YHVH is a single being God. And that trinity scholars twist it into oblivion, misleading all who listen to their confusion. And men seeing the confusion turned those religions into a house divided--( Mark 3:24-26) they will not stand.

Well, since the Catholic Church has stood for almost 2000 years, I guess it's quite otherwise.

Also, you simply do not understand that concept of the Trinity when you write "YHVH is a single being God" since that is also what the Trinity means, namely "3 in 1". You're obviously confused as to what "essence" actually means because it does not mean nor imply anything polytheistic in this context.

Also, for you to say that the Trinitarian concept is "misleading" means that somehow you know the specifics of God and that connection with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which is a pretty much a wild assumption that is far more "out there" than the Catholic statement that it's a "mystery". How could you possibly know that? Even the prophets would not necessary know, but somehow you do?

 

[metis]

Jesus had a God because of the hypostatic union. Which even trinitarian scholars admit. The trinity doctrine postulates that all 3 persons are "co-equal" that means they are not to be considered as subordinate to another person. "God the Son" cannot be considered subordinate to "God the Father" or else they are no longer "co-equal".

That's not what "co-equal" means in that context. Let me use an example of a car.

If you have a car, what's more important, the engine, the drive-shaft, or the tires? They are "co-equal" because without those three components the car simply will not do its job as needed.

The concept of "co-equal", as it relates to the Trinity, is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of no less significance than God the Father as they are of the "essence" of the Father.

 

[kjw47]

... Jesus in the flesh had a God, a Creator. Psalm 139:14 certainly applies.

Jesus had a God because of the hypostatic union. Which even trinitarian scholars admit. The trinity doctrine postulates that all 3 persons are "co-equal" that means they are not to be considered as subordinate to another person. "God the Son" cannot be considered subordinate to "God the Father" or else they are no longer "co-equal".

Proverbs 8 is about the personification of wisdom as a female. Jesus is a male. So you will need to explain that. Besides, it's just really a nice spin to take Solomon's profound exposition of wisdom as a woman trying to teach people and try to make it into a literal history of Jesus Christ the Son of God. Thus making Him instead the daughter of God.

Finally, Solomon also personifies foolishness as a loud woman who entices people to do stupid things. (Proverbs 9:13-18) So explain that one; if wisdom is a literal person then is foolishness also a literal being?

The thing about all that is that I agree with you that the trinity doctrine is confusing and man made but that doesn't mean you are therefore automatically correct. Without the N.W.T.; JWs don't have an argument. That's why they need it so much. The Textus Receptus is the most reliable Bible because people that respected and cared for the scriptures kept them safe and cherished them through centuries.

So if you want to dig up some old manuscripts transcribed by likely heretics and base your own Bible "version" on it; then I guess that's your prerogative. But if you want to the safest or most trustworthy scriptures then you have to use the Textus Receptus.

Jesus was created--Proverbs 8--Collosians 1:15--- your teachers are twisting it into oblivion.
Catholicism translating is all that remained when the protestants translated. How reliable do you think that is? They were the first( 2Thess 2:3) to twist it into oblivion to fit false council teachings.

 

[kjw47]

Well, since the Catholic Church has stood for almost 2000 years, I guess it's quite otherwise.

Also, you simply do not understand that concept of the Trinity when you write "YHVH is a single being God" since that is also what the Trinity means, namely "3 in 1". You're obviously confused as to what "essence" actually means because it does not mean nor imply anything polytheistic in this context.

Also, for you to say that the Trinitarian concept is "misleading" means that somehow you know the specifics of God and that connection with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which is a pretty much a wild assumption that is far more "out there" than the Catholic statement that it's a "mystery". How could you possibly know that? Even the prophets would not necessary know, but somehow you do?

UNDENIANBLE FACTS OF HISTORY= From Moses on up until this very day. In EVERY place of Israelite God worship to the GOD of the OT--- taught, served and worship--a single being God named-YHVH(Jehovah)--- The God taught to Jesus and EVERY bible writer---- How do your teachers get by these FACTS?????????
It is clear in the ot--I AM YHVH, besides ME(SINGULAR) there is no other God---YHVH did not come down here. His master worker did(Prov 8)-his firstborn of all creation( Coll 1:15)

 

[metis]

UNDENIANBLE FACTS OF HISTORY= From Moses on up until this very day. In EVERY place of Israelite God worship to the GOD of the OT--- taught, served and worship--a single being God named-YHVH(Jehovah)--- The God taught to Jesus and EVERY bible writer---- How do your teachers get by these FACTS?????????
It is clear in the ot--I AM YHVH, besides ME(SINGULAR) there is no other God---YHVH did not come down here. His master worker did(Prov 8)-his firstborn of all creation( Coll 1:15)

The only "UNDENIABLE FACT" is that you really don't know what you're talking about because there is no way your "FACTS" can be objectively verified in any way. If you think you can, go for it-- good luck.

Even though the Trinitarian concept has been explained to you, in that it is not in any way polytheistic, you just come back and parrot a delusion that the JW's leaders have brainwashed you to believe is true. You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own "FACTS", kjw47.

As for me, I simply don't know if the Trinitarian concept is true or not, so I personally don't just believe in something that cannot be substantiated in any way.

 

[74x12]

Jesus was created--Proverbs 8--Collosians 1:15--- your teachers are twisting it into oblivion.
Catholicism translating is all that remained when the protestants translated. How reliable do you think that is? They were the first( 2Thess 2:3) to twist it into oblivion to fit false council teachings.

You haven't even answered my concerns I brought up about your use of Proverbs 8. As for Colossians 1:15 it says He is the firstborn and of course Jesus was the first One born of God. See Luke 1:35.

 

[kjw47]

The only "UNDENIABLE FACT" is that you really don't know what you're talking about because there is no way your "FACTS" can be objectively verified in any way. If you think you can, go for it-- good luck.

Even though the Trinitarian concept has been explained to you, in that it is not in any way polytheistic, you just come back and parrot a delusion that the JW's leaders have brainwashed you to believe is true. You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own "FACTS", kjw47.

As for me, I simply don't know if the Trinitarian concept is true or not, so I personally don't just believe in something that cannot be substantiated in any way.

Every scholar on earth knows my post is fact. Every mortal on earth that knows God, knows 100% my post is fact.

 

[kjw47]

You haven't even answered my concerns I brought up about your use of Proverbs 8. As for Colossians 1:15 it says He is the firstborn and of course Jesus was the first One born of God. See Luke 1:35.

Firstborn of all creation--That occurred in the beginning of Gods creation. The being who came to earth, tells you that at Proverbs 8(22-26)