firedragon
Veteran Member
Brother. Now again, when you ask something about "Biblical Gospels" you are referring to the books?
In that case the Quran does not speak about these books in principle.
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The Gospels in Islam: Authentic or Corrupted?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Brother. Now again, when you ask something about "Biblical Gospels" you are referring to the books?
In that case the Quran does not speak about these books in principle.
The Quranic verses do not refer to any specific book, that is true. They do refer to the Revelation God taught Jesus. Jesus taught His disciples that which God had taught Him. These words were in turn taught by the disciples to others. Within a few decades these words passed down through oral traditions and were written down for obvious reasons which were recorded within the text itself (John 20:31).
Agreed entirely, and appreciate any constructive criticism where I've maybe missed something, as I've always got great faith "I do not know", and therefore am always open to questioning.
As far as aware, the Quran corrects all the them misconceptions:
17:111 And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification."
3:59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
4:171-172 O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together.
5:72-8 They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (73) They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (74) So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. (76) Say, "Do you worship besides Allah that which holds for you no [power of] harm or benefit while it is Allah who is the Hearing, the Knowing?" (77) Say, "O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way." (78) Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed.
The Qur'anic Verses that Refute the Divinity of Jesus | Qur'anic Studies
The problem is in the past the Divine Council had been turned into demigods by the Canaanites, and then Babylonians, with the God Most High sometimes being anthropomorphised...
The Quran is saying Allah is the Source of reality which makes everything, therefore Yeshua (Salvation) is something made by the Source.
This is also stated by Krishna, that people will worship him, as they can not understand Brahman is without form, and the Source of all reality, as it isn't understandable in concepts back then...
Now tho it is easier to explain the God Most High (Ala Ilah) is like a CPU in a universal computer; it is beyond quantum physics, and exists in a state before form, which means it can manifest everything.
Yeshua is just a character in a computer game, so he didn't go around saying he was Divine, he is an aspect of the Source; he actually said "do not call me good, as there is none good but God/Source (EL)".
Christianity on the other hand following the Pharisaic Hellenization by Paul makes him into a Divine Being, so they can have a clean sacrifice; as it is illegal to sacrifice men, yet not for God to sacrifice himself.
The Quran is trying to rectify global theology, and remove anthropomorphization; Christianity (John, Paul, Simon the stone) on the other hand is to send the Gentiles to Hell, by making a man into God, by stating a death covenant is acceptable, by proving they don't listen to the Tanakh or Yeshua's words - it is a perfect test, as only the wise really spend the time to examine it properly.
Yeshua being sent by the Source down here makes him the Word (code in the matrix); not a 'divine' being (etymology from Latin = God Like) down here near Hell.
In my opinion.
Shad
Veteran Member
Gospel of St.Barnabas post-dates Islam.
My comments were in regards to applying verses in the Quran to Biblical verses. Muhammad makes clear references to Christian theology as the verses you quote below make clear.
The Quran is clearly critical of Christian theology regarding the Divinity of Christ, the Sonship of Christ and the Trinity. The problem isn’t the falsity of these doctrines in their entirety, only when they are taken to excess. Unfortunately Muslims throw the baby out with the bath water (figuratively that is).
Your own theology? I suspect most people don’t have any idea what you’re trying to say here. I don’t.
Agreed
It gets confusing when you introduce Hinduism to an already challenging interfaith discussion.
Your theology again? Same problem as above.
Yeshua a character in a computer game?
Sounds like you buy into the Muslim anti-Paul narrative?
The Quran is trying to rectify Christian theology, not the Christian books themselves IMHO.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
It isn´t scorn nor malice, it is fact from my perspective. There cannot be multiple truths, there is only one truth.
There are not numerous paths to God, there is only one, and according to Christ, it is very narrow.
Anything that isn´t true is de facto false.
The number of Muslims is irrelevant as to the veracity of their belief structure.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
The Koran corrects the Christian view ? Really ? Based upon what authority ? That of a someone
having hallucinations 600 years after Christ was on earth ?
It corrects the men who knew Christ, lived with him, and were taught by him ?
The whole idea is ludicrous.
Whether you like it or not, whether it is in harmony with with your own prophet, or not, you cannot combine correct and incorrect with a result of being 100% correct.
Christianity is the thesis, Islam is the anithesis.
¨Choose this day whom you will serve¨ is great advice.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Mind if I ask? Do you believe in the crucified, entombed, resurrected, and ascended Jesus of Nazareth?
firedragon
Veteran Member
I think about this repeated revelation matter I will cut and paste an older response in this thread. Easier.
"The Injeel is referred to as containing Hudhan wa noorun, the guidance and light that was sent to Jesus in 5:46. The Injeel is not specifically referred to as a written down book on paper or anything of the sort. It is the revelation given to Jesus. Jesus was "taught" the revelations, both Tawraath and Injeel. The Torah and the Gospel 5:110.
The Injeel is never specified as a physical book. So it may very well be referring to what the "euaggelion tis basilias", the "Gospel of the Kingdom" referred to in Matthew 24. And when Mark says things like "those who lay down their life for me and for the gospel" it looks like it is not referring to a particular printed book but what Jesus preached or his message.
The thing is there are some variances in the message of Paul where he refers to "my gospel" which looks like a generic statement mou or of me. His gospel. His good news. His good news speaks of judgment through Jesus.
Anyway, the Quran also does not specifically refer to a gospel that was written down. It was a revelation."
Also. I understand when you say that Jesus's teachings were orally transmitted through time and people wrote them down. But the four canonical gospels have a particular genre. It has a personality. They are not theology of Jesus, they are theology about Jesus. And they differ from one to another. I do not like to get into faith based discussions but when you say Jesus's teachings were written down by latter day inheritors of it there is a lot of things to consider.
If Jesus taught a Gospel that was sent "through him", it will not be "all about him". It will be what he narrated. And if you contend that what he taught was recorded within the text itself then you should also know that the four gospels in the New Testament were written by four different people, and has four different, evolving personalities.
If you go into scholarship of these books its another extensive matter that might not agree with you.
Anyway, in a nutshell, what is your contention about the Gospels (Mark, Luke, Matthew, John) and what is the euaggalion of Jesus? If the Euaggelion is a message is that contained within the four gospels. If they are contained, then what is the reason for the theology about Jesus to change from one book to another? If you don't believe it has changed then what is the message that Jesus taught and is contained "within the text" as you said?
In a nutshell please if you could.
firedragon
Veteran Member
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats strange. You quoted something about "Satya Yuga" which though has my name on it was never written by me.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Aye, it is. Thanks for responding. Regards.
Are you aware of any impartial, modernistic examinations of the Quran that is not denounced as a great evil to not accept the book as a perfect revelation of the divine? I would be very interested to know if Islam allows scholarship comparable to that which you find in Christianity to exist which presents challenges traditional beliefs through historical, anthropological, and other tools of modernity.
My impression, perhaps wrongly, has been that people's lives become put at grave risk when they as Muslims do not view the Quran through the lens that traditionalism sees things through, which is the mythologized version of history (true of all religions).
Assuming for the time that you do have the equivalent in Islam as you do in Christianity with modern scholars who examine scriptures through the impartial lens of modern tools of research, demythologizing the texts to examine them critically, would that remove or lessen the contradictions? I'm not so sure about it would lessen them. In what ways do you imagine it might show them closer together than further apart?
Yes, and that is the downside of hardline traditionalism no matter which religion it exists in. They hate modernity because it is seen as gutting the symbolic meaning out of the mythologies by removing the "magic" elements of it.
That actually isn't the case, but it is responded to that way because of what I see in Fowler's research about the stages of faith development. The earlier stages simply accept the symbols and the meaning of the symbols and fused together. If you dissect the symbol, you threaten the meaning to them.
And that generates an enormous, often violent resistance to that happening. Heretics are burned alive or murdered in some heinous ways, threats, slander, or some other violence is called upon in order to preserve that faith. The rise of fundamentalism is a symptom of this perceived threat to faith by modernity. It is inherently violent, certainly rhetorically, and in many cases physically.
Ironically, I don't believe there is any way to reconcile these differences because it is not contingent upon data, research, and reason, but upon meaning-making and symbolic abstractions. Those are internal matters of growth and development, not matters of research and study. "Come let us reason together," often only works when the reasoning is through the same set of filters. A traditionalist does not see through the same filters as the modernist does.
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Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Thats strange. You quoted something about "Satya Yuga" which though has my name on it was never written by me.
Ackkk! strange indeed. Thanks for catching that. Wrong addressee. That post should have been, and soon will be, directed to wizanda.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
In all my 71 years, I have never heard nor read of an apocalyptic Christian Messianic Age being equated with the first stage of a Hindu four-stage world cycle. Out of curiosity, what Christian sect do you belong to? Or is your theology a product of your own creation?
Having spent 15 years trying to fix this divide before Armageddon, agree entirely; yet it doesn't come from the Quran, it comes from the Hadiths, scholars, and Imams...
So whereas the Quran makes clear not to be like the Jews who follow their scholars, and Rabbis (9:31), whilst ignoring all of the messages, the Muhammadans do the same thing...
Thus they're not actually Muslims (a servant who submits to the will of God), as a Muslim must not make distinction among all the world's religious texts (2:285, 4:150-151, 10:47)...
Whereas they make distinction, pick and choose, and have a very sided argument...
Yet part of the reasons this happens, is Christians have been taught to be sided against the Jews, so Muslims take another side; yet none of them are being objective with all of the data...
In other words they only see through one eye, whilst claiming to see clearly, which is the definition of the Dajjal/Armilus/Anti-Christ.
So no it isn't only my understanding of Heaven, it is what used to exist in most cultures, and in the Bible and Quran...
There is a Divine Council in Heaven who sit around the throne of God, in Revelation these are recorded as the 24 Elders, in Hinduism 24 incarnations of Vishnu, and Jainism the 24 Tirthankara.
38:69 I had no knowledge of the Heavenly Beings when they were debating (about the creation of ’Ādam).
37:8 They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side.
Psalms 82:1 A Psalm by Asaph. God (Elohim) presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods (Elohim = Divine Beings).
Basically after the Babylonian Exile the Jews removed any concepts of the Divine Council, to not be like the Babylonians with demigods, yet in doing so, removing their own theology.
There are multiple modern scholars who've studied these ancient theologies, and are coming to similar conclusions (Dr Michael Heiser, Dr Margaret Barker, etc).
Sorry as a Baha'i thought it would be second nature if you've read these religious texts... Will try to keep it more simple.
As an avatar here before judgement day, it isn't my theology...
It was what the Bhagavad Gita related in terms of Brahman being unknowable, as it was beyond human comprehension to understand a super computer back then; now in these modern times, was trying to rectify the theological comprehension errors by simplifying it, into what reality is...
We can show this from the mathematical basis of our reality.
Yes, as if we understand that reality is a mathematically coded system; then the Source is a CPU, and us inside this matrix are just mathematical equations i.e computer game characters, like the Sims for example.
Most Muhammadans I've met have a limited comprehension of the errors of Paul, my lists are far more concise, and are an appraisal by Christ before Judgement Day as prophesied.
The Quran identifies that they've added to the book, corrupted the message, ignored the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28), and lied to everyone:
2:79 So woe unto those who write the book with their hands, then say, “This is from God,” that they may sell it for a paltry price. So woe unto them for what their hands have written and woe unto them for what they earn.
5:13-15: Then for their breaking of their covenant, we Cursed them and hardened their hearts. They distort the meaning of the word, and have forgotten part of that whereof they were reminded. Thou wilt not cease to discover their treachery, from all save a few of them. So pardon them, and forbear. Truly God loves the virtuous. And with those who say, “We are Christians,” We made a covenant. Then they forgot part of that whereof they were reminded. So we stirred up enmity and hatred among them, till the day of resurrection. God will inform them of what they used to do. O people of the book! Our messenger has come unto you, making clear to you much of what you once hid of the book, and pardoning much. There has come unto you, from God, a light and a clear book.
4:46: Among those who are Jews are those who distort the meaning of the word, and say, “We hear and disobey,” and “Hear, as one who hears not!” and “Attend to us!” twisting their tongues and disparaging religion. And had they said, “We hear and obey” and “Listen” and “Regard us,” it would have been better for them and more proper. But God Cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.
2:59 But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed.
Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Qur'an 2:79) - WikiIslam
As someone who started by discerning the errors in the Bible myself after reading it, the Quran is correctly telling people to investigate these errors, and as you pointed out Muhammadans throw away the baby and bath water, they don't know where the errors are, and thus are not humble Servants of God (Muslims).
2:4 And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
In my opinion.
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I'm not a Christian; I've got the new name of Christ or the first born of Brahma (Sananda), and am here before Judgement Day...
It isn't really my own creation, it is a correlation of what was already stated in the world's religious text.
In the Kalki Purana the 25th and final avatar (Skanda according to the Bhagavad Gita) comes on a white horse to fight the sinful behaviour (Adharmic) with the words of his mouth, before the Age of Godliness; he comes from a 'place of peace' (Shambhala/New Jerusalem)... This is the same as what is stated in Revelation; where it also correlates the name references:
Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar (Sandalphon) in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God (Zion - Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12, Isaiah 52:7), the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name (Sananda).
In my opinion.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
You have misquoted it.
It does not say all of those things you have said above brother.
"Woe to those who write the book with their hands and say this is from God" means some will write on their own and claim that is of divine origin. It does not mean all those added, corrupted, ignored some curse of Moses etc etc. Its just simple language.
On what basis do you say this is speaking "only" about corruption of previous scripture, and it refers to Jews or Christians alone etc? You are wrong. This is addressing all. Even those who call themselves Muslim. Anyone.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the Gospel you are referring to is the gospel of Paul about Jesus. Or are you simply referring to the gospels: Matthew Mark Luke and John which are not self stled as such but are called that by theologians.