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The Governement wants to track us all!!!

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
At my school, I am Vice President of the Philosophy Club. The other day we got off on an, erm, interesting topic concerning the looming technological advance of doing away with credit cards and cash by way of the installation of a small chip under one's skin, etc.

My school, Catholic as it is, of course jumped to the initial conclusion that this was the deadly "Mark of the Beast". Though none of the members or moderators of the club are aware of my rather colorful religious affiliations, the teacher on hand was quick to pick up my mental eye-rolling, and in turn supplied the debate with a more secular argument. Apparently, the implantation of such a chip is a bad idea, because it allows the government to track each of us individually and at will.

*more mental eye-rolling*

What do you guys think about this? It would be a great convenience to merely swipe your hand to pay for your goods, or identify yourself, or even to be used as a key to your house, or to start your car. People would never have to worry about losing this or that, or getting different things stolen.

It is true to assume that the government could use such technology to track people--they already can track people using cell phones--but is the 'risk' enough that we should impede the progress of such advances? Sure, the government could track us, but whyever would they want to? Along those lines--if the government had a good reason to be tracking someone, wouldn't you want them to be able to, aka, crimes could be solved much quicker in some cases? One part of me agrees with all I've alluded to thus far, (this 'conspiracy theory' is a bunch of bunk), and the other half of me dramatically cries, "That's what they'll put on your tombstone!"

For a last thought, the city of New York has already employed some of this technology. A New York hospital was having problems with people stealing babies from the maternity wards, and then selling them on the black market, or whatever else. The hospital remedied this by planting small chips under the skin of each newborn, to the effect that if it is carried beyond certain limits within the hospital, (without the complimentary, chip-containing medical bracelet worn by the mother), maximum security would be employed, and a world of pain would be rained down upon he who carried the baby. The controversy here, is that the chip is not inserted into the part of the belly-button of the babie that falls off eventually, but in a permament location, and that it is not removed before the baby leaves the hospital. As my teacher explained, this is of course so that the evil government can track them all.

I argued here, that it is a ridiculously simple medical procedure to remove something which is merely embedded beneath the skin.....to dubious expressions, unfortunately. Also, if the chip had been implanted in the part of the belly-button that eventually falls off, it is quite possible that the theif could remove that part of the baby, effectively removing the chip as well. (I actually forgot to say that last bit. Dang it! That would have been good!)

Anyhow, to wrap up, what do you guys think of all of this?
 
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I think "You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Ceridwen018 again." :)

Fascinating thread!

Historically, people have always feared and dreaded the latest technology, whether there was good reason to or not. Still.... *looks over shoulder* ...what if the government did want to spy on us? *Casually walks over to window and closes blinds*
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
I think it would be a good idea. Maybe they could make it like tapping phone lines where you have to get a warrant before listening in, or in this case, tracking someone.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Now, this is a change of roles Ceridwen. Normally, I'm the one gung-ho for technology :D.

Here, however, I'm reluctant. It's not becaue of any "Mark of the Beast" type speculation, but more along the lines of "I don't trust the government." It is in its best interest to garner more power to fulfill its role. What it can exploit, it will exploit, and I think this has been born out in the past. Government tends to increase its power and abuse that which it has.

You made a good counter-argument against it, but normally these sorts of debates focus on a situation where it becomes the sole, or nearly the sole, means of transferrinf funds. If it isn't ubiquitous, then by all means, cut it out. However, if it is ubiquitous, then it's like cutting off an economic limb.

I also doubt that it would require swiping across a scanner. That's also inconvenient when we are developing technology that could scan us as we enter/leave buildings without it (heck, implant the early versions of the chips in products, and there is no more need for cashier's counters either). The problem is, this sort of thing will be used to track, study, and analyze folks. It won't just be the government doing it, but also businesses, concerned parents, spouses, etc. who have a vested interest in knowing what people do and where they do it.

I don't think such a situation is right around the corner by any stretch (there needs to be market saturation, acceptance of the tech, etc.). I would, however, oppose such a situation. I don't even like carrying IDs :).
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
They already use a chip about the size and shape of a grain of rice to track animals. The idea of putting it in humans has been bouncing around for a while.

the problem I have with this is freedom related.
I'm going to try not to sound too paranoid and anarchistic but hey... ;)

If it becomes common to have this chip put in it can become manditory. No chip no citizenship... its already neigh impossible to get by in this country without a drivers licence or non-driver ID... I know because I don't have one. I can not get on a plane, go to a show, cash my paycheck (unless the tellers know me), cash my tax refund check, buy certen products, get movies, et cet... (I might just be a terrorist you know... I was told that when trying to bord a plane for New Mexico back in '02:banghead3)
I personally don't want my life, spending habits and so on kept on public record. I like anonimity and my freedom.

wa:do
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Let the chips fall where they may! :D I would gladly volunteer to be the first in my block to get it. Have it keyed in to my car would be GREAT. Do away with all those keys and crap. My notebook and server would recognise me immediately so no more passwords. I really like this. Instead of checking out at the grocery store, I walk by a sensor which picks up every item in the cart AND my debits my chip. Way Cool.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Cool... that will keep me from coveting that which I can't afford? It's sounding better all of the time! :D
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc, I have to say, this demonstrates more contentment with government than I have, and therefore, closer to the historical Christian position. My hat is off...even if I still distrust them :).
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Mr_Spinkles said:
Historically, people have always feared and dreaded the latest technology, whether there was good reason to or not. Still.... *looks over shoulder* ...what if the government did want to spy on us? *Casually walks over to window and closes blinds*

You know Spinks...just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you :).
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Sounds convenient, I think I'd like to understand the major implications of such ideas before I decide.

Sounds similar to the RFID technology that some companies would like installed in their products which I am opposed to on the basis of privacy invasion and possible health threats from electromagnetic waves.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Why would this have to be used only by "good" folks? Why not a new form of theft identity?

I can see security systems based on the idea to control entry but a "stolen" or counterfeit code could be used. Access to bank accounts as well.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Actually Pah,

with the removal of the paper trail, I do believe our financial security would be enhanced. There already exists ways to safeguard your passwords, and this would be no different. Most credit card fraud occurs by theifs getting carbons of the credit cards from the dumpster behind the fancy restaurant you went to.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
In the U.K, there is talk of the introduction of identity cards (Cum passports); more than 50% asked for their views were quick to jump on the 'anti-big brother bandwagon' ( Why should the governament be able to track me ? etc....), they are finding any excuse to try and ensure that it will never happen.
What I'd like to know is what are they truly worried about being tracked for? Perhaps they have reasons to worry?:)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The US was founded largely on the premise that government is not to be trusted; that it has a natural tendency to grow and arrogate powers and privileges to the detriment of common citizens. This is why the founding fathers instituted a set of checks and balances into the government, and one of the reasons they formalized the right to bear arms.

A casual look at either past history or the state of the world today will illustrate this tendency toward despotism in many countries. There is no reason to think the US is immune to this -- many see ominous signs of it today. In the 1930s one of the most civilized, highly educated and cultured countries in the world fell prey to this. It can happen anywhere. Government needs constant scrutiny.

Personally, I'd rather not voluntarily place a bit in my mouth, even if I think it unlikely that the government would grab the reigns.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ceridwen -- Do you know which New York hospital is using these neonatal implants you mentioned?

I can see magnetic armbands perhaps, but medically unnessary surgery on a fragile population, with unknown long-term consequences? Frankly I'm dubious. All surgery would require written parental informed consent. I'm sure many parents would think twice before subjecting their baby to such a procedure.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you can frighten a population you can get it to give up liberty for security. People will cede extraordinary powers to government that later come back to bite 'em in the butt.

Today environmentalists are looked on as suspected terrorists; gays as a threat to marriage and family, even "liberals" are suspect. Implants could well turn out to be magnetic stars of David...
 
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Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Ceridwen -- Do you know which New York hospital is using these neonatal implants you mentioned?

I can see magnetic armbands perhaps, but medically unnessary surgery on a fragile population, with unknown long-term consequences? Frankly I'm dubious. All surgery would require written parental informed consent. I'm sure many parents would think twice before subjecting their baby to such a procedure.
I don't know which hospital it was--I didn't see the actual article itself.

Parents are given the choice to think twice--in this hospital, they must give permission for the chip to be implanted in their baby. I assume that most parents are pretty gung-ho with the idea, and the ones that aren't are taken on a sort of guilt trip with, "Don't you want to protect your baby?" I can see the necessity of these chips in this circumstance--these babies were being stolen and sold on the black market for crying out loud! The controversy comes in in the fact that the hospital did not remove the chips before the baby left the hospital....although as I said, it is a rather simple medical procedure that the parents could have done themselves.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
To clarify my position on all of this, I'm not 100% all for it or anything....I agree with No*s that its not 'around the corner' by any means.

It would be an incredible convenience, and provide services that we can't even think up right now perhaps, but I can also see how it could be misused by the government.

Then again, WHY would the governement want to track everyone? This seems like something that would sooner be misused by companies, by way of sending you mail that relates to things your interested in, just like what happens on the internet.

The reality is that the governement has no reason to just sporadically track people. It just doesn't make sense. Also, the government is very capable of tracking people these days as it is--I don't really see what sort of difference would be made by a chip in those aspects.
 
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