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The Great Lie.

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
I have defined what I feel is suffering, what is your definition.
It its simplest terms, it's a reaction to pain. As I mentioned in a previous post, it's a reaction that includes attachment to and focus on that pain.

As to pain it I define it as something that causes distress, it does not have to be physical, it can be emotional as well.
I define pain as a sensation in the body brought about by illness or injury.

Have you seen a dog limp, or a plant shrivel its leaves, a fish trashing in a net there are many more examples. All life needs nutriment, a specific environment and has a form, when you take any of those away it strives to get it back or die. Maybe that's not suffering to some humans, but I view it as such, and with all the human charities that exist to help these life forms I do believe I am not alone.
This is my perspective on the relationship between pain and suffering. I've written it elsewhere on the forum more than a couple of times:

Buddhism speaks of two arrows. When adversity comes, two arrows fly in our direction. Being struck by an arrow is painful. What determines suffering is how one reacts to being struck. One can focus on the pain of that first arrow and remain ignorant of the trajectory of the second, and be struck again which leads to suffering, or one can be aware that the pain of the first arrow is what it is, and shift focus to being aware that a second arrow is approaching and get out of the way.

The moral of the story is that you can focus on what is bringing you distress, or you can accept that what is causing pain is temporary and will run its course, do your best to navigate through, focus on the big picture, and have gratitude that which is in the world that brings you contentment.

Pain is inevitable...suffering is optional.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
It its simplest terms, it's a reaction to pain. As I mentioned in a previous post, it's a reaction that includes attachment to and focus on that pain.


I define pain as a sensation in the body brought about by illness or injury.


I go into my perspective on the relationship between pain and suffering here: Ask a nondual "person"
From your link I see your assumption being that you can avoid or ignore the pain. The simplest example is that you are being tortured, locked in a room abused daily and only given enough sustenance to survive. Yes that is an extreme view but happens and life is even more unforgiving. A friend was camping and had a tree fall on him and trap him, while there he was attacked by bugs and starving and thirsty he was found after 3 days but he will tell you those were the 3 worst days of his life.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Suffering is inevitable

Above is The Great Lie.

At its core, my mission in life is to leave behind a philosophy that argues against this mindset.
Good luck with your mission....
I totally disagree that that is a lie.

I also think it is cruel to say that to a person who is suffering since that is dismissive.
Any mental health professional would be aghast.
Imagine telling a mother who just lost her child that she doesn't have to suffer.

I also consider it an arrogant position because it is based upon self:
"I" overcame my suffering so everyone should be able to do what "I" did.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Buddhism speaks of two arrows. When adversity comes, two arrows fly in our direction. Being struck by an arrow is painful. What determines suffering is how one reacts to being struck. One can focus on the pain of that first arrow and remain ignorant of the trajectory of the second, and be struck again which leads to suffering, or one can be aware that the pain of the first arrow is what it is, and shift focus to being aware that a second arrow is approaching and get out of the way.

The moral of the story is that you can focus on what is bringing you distress, or you can accept that what is causing pain is temporary and will run its course, do your best to navigate through, focus on the big picture, and have gratitude that which is in the world that brings you contentment.

Pain is inevitable...suffering is optional.
I interpret this as you believe you can always avoid the second arrow and consecutive arrows. I also read as to ignore the pain until it is gone which it eventually will be gone but for some that isn't until death, but I guess you have a point if you can ignore it until death did you really suffer at least we can never find out. Animals plants and people trapped in a burning forest if they all died did they really suffer.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
I also think it is cruel to say that to a person who is suffering since that is dismissive.
I don't follow how it is dismissive. I say that we can eventually overcome suffering, not that we can immediately overcome suffering. We are far from the happy ending.
I also consider it an arrogant position because it is based upon self:
"I" overcame my suffering so everyone should be able to do what "I" did.
Well I don't know who this "I" is that you are referring to but it is certainly not me.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Granted, this idea is not wholly unique. Christian eschatology says that eventually suffering will be a thing of the past after the events of the Book of Revelation.
I consider that to be garbage. Then again, I consider much of the Bible to be garbage.
As long as we live in a physical world there will be some suffering. Suffering will only end when we die and enter the spiritual world....
It will end for some people, but not for all. Some people will take their suffering with them since suffering is not only physical, it is a state of the soul.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't follow how it is dismissive. I say that we can eventually overcome suffering, not that we can immediately overcome suffering. We are far from the happy ending.
Are you saying that eventually we can overcome all suffering? What is that belief based upon?
Well I don't know who this "I" is that you are referring to but it is certainly not me.
No, I don't think that is true for everyone, just some people.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I just accept life as it is and let go of wanting to be in a different place, experiencing something else.
That is called adjusting. I have had to do a lot of that since my late husband died.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Things can change. I don't know about the origins of man or the universe really, but yes, it seems suffering has always been as long as there has been life to experience it. But things are always on a constant state of flux.

just because we suffer now does not mean we have to perpetually suffer.
I think there will be far less suffering in the future but there will always be some suffering since suffering is inherent in life in a physical world.
Of course nobody knows what the future holds. Maybe in the future people will not suffer when a loved one dies. That is even possible to do now, depending upon what one believes about death.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Both. Ultimately though, suffering in general. That's the ultimate utopia goal.
Why do you think it would be good to eliminate suffering? Maybe suffering serves a purpose.
Suffering is no fun when one is in the midst of it, but I think we have to look at the end-game.

“Those who suffer most, attain to the greatest perfection........

While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.

Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.” Paris Talks, pp. 50-51
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, you gotta get rid of death.

There are Christians who believe that is going to happen.

The time is coming (Matt. 25:31-34-37) when living people on Earth can remain alive on Earth without dying when Jesus' comes he will do away with 'enemy death' on Earth according to 1st Corinthians 15:24-26.
#185
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
As for 1 Cor. 15:24-26 goes, here's what my bible says:

Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

To me, and who am I but a layperson, this entire passage reeks of THE END, THE END. And the biblical passage is talking about the raising of the dead, and how central this belief is to Christianity.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As for 1 Cor. 15:24-26 goes, here's what my bible says:

Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
That does not mean that physical death will be destroyed, as JWs believe.
It means there will be no more death since we will be raised in a spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
To me, and who am I but a layperson, this entire passage reeks of THE END, THE END.
To me this means the end, not the end of the world, but the end of the age.

Matthew 24-3

NIV
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

NKJV
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
And the biblical passage is talking about the raising of the dead, and how central this belief is to Christianity.
1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

The Resurrection Body​

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.”[h] But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like[i] the heavenly man.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is nothing in any of these verses about being raised back to life in a physical body which will continue to live on earth forever, as JWs believe.
But JWs just ignore these verses and continue believing what they believe because they want to live on earth forever in a physical body.

JWs believe that verses that say the meek will inherit the earth mean they will live on earth forever.
"These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever" is referring to heaven, which will last forever. It is not referring to earth.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

The Resurrection Body​

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.”[h] But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like[i] the heavenly man.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is nothing in any of these verses about being raised back to life in a physical body which will continue to live on earth forever, as JWs believe.
But JWs just ignore these verses and continue believing what they believe because they want to live on earth forever.

"These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever" is referring to heaven, which will last forever. It is not referring to earth.
Read the whole chapter, not starting with verse 35. (I am not a JW and am not arguing their point by the way.)
 

Ajax

Active Member
I don't follow how it is dismissive. I say that we can eventually overcome suffering, not that we can immediately overcome suffering. We are far from the happy ending.
So how can you say that suffering is a great lie?
I suggest when you can prove you point to open this thread again. It's like saying that the assertion "humans and mammals can not fly by their own means" is a great lie.
 

Dao Hao Now

Active Member
Buddhism speaks of two arrows. When adversity comes, two arrows fly in our direction. Being struck by an arrow is painful. What determines suffering is how one reacts to being struck. One can focus on the pain of that first arrow and remain ignorant of the trajectory of the second, and be struck again which leads to suffering, or one can be aware that the pain of the first arrow is what it is, and shift focus to being aware that a second arrow is approaching and get out of the way.
There are so many things wrong with this analogy, I’m not sure where to start.
For example;
Why if the first arrow is merely pain, does the second arrow lead to suffering as opposed to merely yet another pain?
What if there is a third arrow…how does that change the equation?…do the first two merely cause pain while the third finally leads to suffering?
What if there is only one arrow?
What if the first arrow kills you instantly?
What if the first arrow mortally wounds you, yet it takes time for you to die?
Why if the first (or any) arrow merely causes pain but doesn’t lead to suffering, would one worry about getting out of the way of the second?

And that’s just getting started.
 
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