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The hole paradox I came up with myself

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
No, that's not what I'm doing. What everyone else is doing is not giving me enough information for me to change my views. If you don't understand this, I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore.
Or could it be that "they've explained it to you as clearly as they reasonably can, and you still don't get it."?

You see, nobody is really disagreeing with the fundamental observations you're making about the nature of "holes", they're just looking to build on those observations to have less of a paradox and more of just different ways of thinking and talking about concepts for different purpose. Scientists and philosophers will talk about holes in completely different (potentially even contradictory) ways to, say, road-builders or doctors. All ways can be perfectly valid and meaningful in the contexts their used though.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
Or could it be that "they've explained it to you as clearly as they reasonably can, and you still don't get it."?
That is what I'm saying, they could be saying that, but I don't know that, therefore that does not equal them being correct as you are implying.

You see, nobody is really disagreeing with the fundamental observations you're making about the nature of "holes", they're just looking to build on those observations to have less of a paradox and more of just different ways of thinking and talking about concepts for different purpose. Scientists and philosophers will talk about holes in completely different (potentially even contradictory) ways to, say, road-builders or doctors. All ways can be perfectly valid and meaningful in the contexts their used though.
No, there are people in this thread and on other websites I've posted this on who do disagree with me about the observations I've made of holes.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
That is what I'm saying, they could be saying that, but I don't know that, therefore that does not equal them being correct as you are implying.
You're never going to find out if their correct or not if you just dismiss anything you don't want to hear out of hand as them "not understanding". I'm not expecting you to blindly accept anything anyone else says is true or that anything you've said is false, only for you to truly accept the possibility on some points.

No, there are people in this thread and on other websites I've posted this on who do disagree with me about the observations I've made of holes.
I think pretty much everyone accepts the core points, about how a hole is defined on the basis of the absence of material and the presence of space at the same time, and the element of logical contradiction that could imply. What people are questioning is the nature and significance of that apparent contradiction and how it can be (and actually is in practice) managed.

A single hole can be conceptually recognised as both an absence of material and the presence of space (and potentially in other ways too), but we simply choose to consider whichever is most relevant to the context in which we're addressing the hole. If you're a driver approaching a pothole, you're interested in the size and shape of the space in the road but if you're the crew repairing the road, you're interested in the amount of material needed to fill it. It's the same hole, and could even be the same person, the difference in perception is just the context.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
You're never going to find out if their correct or not if you just dismiss anything you don't want to hear out of hand as them "not understanding". I'm not expecting you to blindly accept anything anyone else says is true or that anything you've said is false, only for you to truly accept the possibility on some points.
Did you not read what I responded with??? "That is what I'm saying, [[they could be saying that]], but I don't know that, therefore that does not equal them being correct as you are implying." This part [[they could be saying that]] means that yes, I could be possibly wrong, but I need to see enough evidence provided for me to believe that I am wrong.
I think pretty much everyone accepts the core points, about how a hole is defined on the basis of the absence of material and the presence of space at the same time, and the element of logical contradiction that could imply. What people are questioning is the nature and significance of that apparent contradiction and how it can be (and actually is in practice) managed.
You think?? I literally told you people on other websites that is not the case, unless you are referring to just the post on this website, what you're saying is utterly ridiculous.
A single hole can be conceptually recognized as both an absence of material and the presence of space (and potentially in other ways too), but we simply choose to consider whichever is most relevant to the context in which we're addressing the hole. If you're a driver approaching a pothole, you're interested in the size and shape of the space in the road but if you're the crew repairing the road, you're interested in the amount of material needed to fill it. It's the same hole, and could even be the same person, the difference in perception is just the context.
That is what I have been basically saying all this time, yet you're somehow against what I'm saying?? I'm sorry, but I feel like you're a troll, so I'm going to block you.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
(Note: Many people only skim read this post, or only read the paradox part, thinking, "oh, I get it, this isn't a paradox!" Then comment without even reading the whole post, not understanding the correct context of the paradox because the solution to the paradox helps with understanding the right context. I know this because I've posted this post on other websites, and because that's what people have already done in this thread.)

The Paradox (edited for clarity):

The hole paradox arises from a misconception about the nature of empty space. While a hole might initially seem to be just empty space, it is not a true void but rather a space defined by its lack of something, such as the absence of material or substance. This leads to a paradox: How can we define a hole as a type of nothing when empty space itself is considered a positive value?

In traditional ontology, objects are typically defined by their properties and characteristics. However, a hole lacks these defining properties and exists as a space where something could be, but isn't. This raises the question: How can something that appears to be nothing have properties?

This paradox challenges our understanding of identity and existence by highlighting the complexities of defining and understanding concepts that are defined by their negation or absence.

+++

Solution:
A "hole" is a word which is used for two different things, but people often think you can use the word hole to mean both of those two different things at the same time (which is the absence of dirt and the ground around the hole affecting the value of the hole).

In math, a hole would not be the dirt around the hole when trying to figure out how much dirt you have in a certain space, it would be 0 (because you cannot understand it as being dirt). But if you're trying to figure out how much space you have available, it would be a positive value (something you understand as being available space), and the dirt would be 0 (something you don't understand as being available space). However, in the case of the hole being a positive value in math, the dirt around the hole would be right next to the borders of the hole, giving the dimensions needed to understand the amount of space in the hole via math formulas. But even in that situation, the dirt is not something you understand as a positive value, it's the exact point that you can't understand which causes you to "see" the dimensions of the hole via the max limit of the space available (the edges of the space).

But if you mix those two types of holes up, you see it as both a positive and non-value, or in other words, a type of nothing you understand, which is illogical because nothing is the absence of understanding.
Nothing would equate to available space or having an ability to become something more tangible. Ignorance becomes knowledge or understanding, so the hole is something able to become more than it is. Noting the hole as more than just empty space, but an available medium for more additions... Available space like a hard drive or quartz crystal or air or an empty canvas, the bigger the area the more can be utilized for the filling, layered even and sometimes soaked and/or infused.
 
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