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The Holy Lie or Pious Fraud in religions

j76

Member
”Even though this man (Dionysus) be no God, as you say, still say that he is. Be guilty of a splendid fraud, declaring him the son of Semele, for this would make it seem that she was the mother of a god, and it would confer honour on all our race.” (Euripides Bacchae)
In the Old Testament book of Joshua 2:4-6 (the Hebrew name for Jesus, interestingly), the
prostitute Rahab is praised for an act of lying. We read
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax
This was later picked up on in the New Testament in the book of Jesus’ brother at James 2: 25, where it is said that Rahab was righteous because of telling this lie in the service of God:
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.
The permission of lying under special circumstances would not separate the Hebrew and Christian bibles from other ancient spiritualities. It would actually put them all very much in line. The justification of lying hypothesis is very interesting. It resonates with much in spirituality … even shamanism ... where the neophyte is taken in with ‘magic’ to attract their attention and then is taken to the Truth ... and the understanding that what they initially through was magic was simply deception ... and the recognition of how early they were deceived. Confucius, also, in the Analects, points out that
The Governor of She said to Confucius, ‘In our village we have an example of a straight person. When the father stole a sheep, the son gave evidence against him.’ Confucius answered, ‘In our village those who are straight are quite different. Fathers cover up for their sons, and sons cover up for their fathers. In such behaviour is straightness to be found as a matter of course.’ (13.18)

The Holy Lie also has a history of societal structuring intentions. For example, The the pious fraud or
noble lie is present in Plato’s Republic in Book 2, Sections 414-7, where Plato says a functional
stratified society could be realized if they could convince the people of the lie that everyone from
different levels of society were created by God to exist in a certain level of society). This is also true
of the Code of Manu. As Roger Berkowitz says of the Manu based society in FRIEDRICH
NIETZSCHE, THE CODE OF MANU, AND THE ART OF LEGISLATION,
its division of society into four castes, each with its own particular obligations and rights, is a desired end because it reflects the natural order of society. “The order of castes,” Nietzsche writes, “the highest, the most dominant Gesetz, is only the sanction of a natural-order, naturallegal- positing of the first rank, over which no willfulness, no ‘modern idea’ has power.” It is nature, he insists, not Manu or the Brahmin legislators, that divides the predominantly intellectual from those who are predominantly physically or temperamentally strong, and both of these from the mediocre, who are extraordinary in neither intellect nor strength. The Indian caste system is an artifice, a Holy Lie—but it is a lie that serves natural end.
Similarly, we see the permission of lying in Islam. In the Pro-Muslim book The Spirit of Islam, Afif A. Tabbarah writes, concerning the mandates of Muhammed,
Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: ‘He is not a false person who (through lies) settles concilliation among people, supports good or says what is good.

It is often supposed that lying is prohibited by the bible, but the situation is more complex than that. As we saw in the case of Rahab, it is permissible in special cases, if it is done in extreme circumstances in the service of God and his people. We see, for example,
Exodus 1: 18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.
1 Kings 22: 21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.
2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What's your point? That people lie? And that religions, as human institutions, also lie? And that, in fact, all human institutions lie -- even those we trust the most?

So what? Why hold religion to a higher standard? I say, if you, yourself are free of falsehood, by all means, throw the first brick. Until then, however...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
”Even though this man (Dionysus) be no God, as you say, still say that he is. Be guilty of a splendid fraud, declaring him the son of Semele, for this would make it seem that she was the mother of a god, and it would confer honour on all our race.” (Euripides Bacchae)
In the Old Testament book of Joshua 2:4-6 (the Hebrew name for Jesus, interestingly), the
prostitute Rahab is praised for an act of lying. We read
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax
This was later picked up on in the New Testament in the book of Jesus’ brother at James 2: 25, where it is said that Rahab was righteous because of telling this lie in the service of God:
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.
The permission of lying under special circumstances would not separate the Hebrew and Christian bibles from other ancient spiritualities. It would actually put them all very much in line. The justification of lying hypothesis is very interesting. It resonates with much in spirituality … even shamanism ... where the neophyte is taken in with ‘magic’ to attract their attention and then is taken to the Truth ... and the understanding that what they initially through was magic was simply deception ... and the recognition of how early they were deceived. Confucius, also, in the Analects, points out that
The Governor of She said to Confucius, ‘In our village we have an example of a straight person. When the father stole a sheep, the son gave evidence against him.’ Confucius answered, ‘In our village those who are straight are quite different. Fathers cover up for their sons, and sons cover up for their fathers. In such behaviour is straightness to be found as a matter of course.’ (13.18)

The Holy Lie also has a history of societal structuring intentions. For example, The the pious fraud or
noble lie is present in Plato’s Republic in Book 2, Sections 414-7, where Plato says a functional
stratified society could be realized if they could convince the people of the lie that everyone from
different levels of society were created by God to exist in a certain level of society). This is also true
of the Code of Manu. As Roger Berkowitz says of the Manu based society in FRIEDRICH
NIETZSCHE, THE CODE OF MANU, AND THE ART OF LEGISLATION,
its division of society into four castes, each with its own particular obligations and rights, is a desired end because it reflects the natural order of society. “The order of castes,” Nietzsche writes, “the highest, the most dominant Gesetz, is only the sanction of a natural-order, naturallegal- positing of the first rank, over which no willfulness, no ‘modern idea’ has power.” It is nature, he insists, not Manu or the Brahmin legislators, that divides the predominantly intellectual from those who are predominantly physically or temperamentally strong, and both of these from the mediocre, who are extraordinary in neither intellect nor strength. The Indian caste system is an artifice, a Holy Lie—but it is a lie that serves natural end.
Similarly, we see the permission of lying in Islam. In the Pro-Muslim book The Spirit of Islam, Afif A. Tabbarah writes, concerning the mandates of Muhammed,
Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: ‘He is not a false person who (through lies) settles concilliation among people, supports good or says what is good.

It is often supposed that lying is prohibited by the bible, but the situation is more complex than that. As we saw in the case of Rahab, it is permissible in special cases, if it is done in extreme circumstances in the service of God and his people. We see, for example,
Exodus 1: 18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.
1 Kings 22: 21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.
2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.
Whitespace :rolleyes:
 
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