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The homophobic mindset

I am not proud of what I am about to say. But not saying it doesn't make it any less true. And I believe this describes the mindset of many who want to prohibit gay marriage.

When I was in grade school I thought gay marriage was very wrong. In fact I felt homosexuality in general was wrong. The stated reasons were standard: it is not natural; it's against the Bible; it furthers the general moral breakdown of our society; marriage is between a man and a woman; etc.

But there were unstated, and unconscious, reasons as well. They were emotive reasons I can only recognize now, looking back. It had to do with a mindset which stemmed from ignorance and overheard comments from my conservative parents.

Disgust
I was basically disgusted by the thought of myself or anyone else having sexual relations with a same-sex partner (tellingly, my disgust was always directed at the thought of two gay men, not two lesbian women). I thought of it as a perverted act, like the kid who exposed himself at recess, or who chewed up some food and opened his mouth wide for all to see at the lunch table. That same "perverted" kid was also the dirty kid; he didn't wash his hands after going to the bathroom and he probably had bad breath, greasy hair and yellow teeth. Homosexuality was something that kid would do, because he finds it enjoyable to gross out other people and to break the rules when teacher isn't looking. Maybe he was just so ostracized by the other kids that he needed to act out. Or maybe he was just a degenerate and totally thoughtless of how unsanitary his behavior was.
A loud, public thing
Like chewing with one's mouth open, homosexuality was not something that was natural for the person to do without making a special effort. You don't do it because of some irresistible longing for it, like a person in love; you do it out of mere spontaneity, disdain for those around you, or some perverted mental condition. No one would ever chew their mouth wide open in private; there would be no fun in that. And thus whenever I considered the issue of homosexuality and gay marriage, I never imagined a gay couple quietly, privately enjoying each others' company. I couldn't imagine a gay couple sharing a private intimate moment the way a man and woman might. No, it was a very loud, public thing. And ENTIRELY sexual. Surely perverts would reserve the most outrageous acts for public display, grinning and giggling all the while, relishing the disgust they are causing for those around them.
No such thing as "gay people", or gay "couples"
I didn't have a conception of "gay" vs. "straight" people, any more than you would think of "closed-mouth" vs. "open-mouthed" food-chewers. There were just people acting normally vs. people acting weird and out of control.

And I didn't imagine gay "couples". I imagined only promiscuity. I would have been astounded to know then, as I know now, of same-sex partners who have lived together for 20, 30 years or more, and who have dedicated themselves to each other for life. Obviously, I had never knowingly met anyone in my life who was gay. I worried that if I did run into a gay man in public, or had a gay teacher, that he would make unwelcome advances on me (and all males for that matter).
No hatred; just incredibly ignorant
You may have the impression that I was nasty and mean-spirited as a kid. But I really wasn't. I was homophobic, but I didn't hold any ill will at all towards gays or the 'weird kid'. In fact I was likely to feel embarrassed on behalf of the weird kid. I didn't want to actually hang out with him after school....no one did....but I wanted to be nice to him. Maybe I could help him be normal and quit acting out.
In fact two of my best friends were identical twins; I knew them from the time we were 5 years old. One of the twins was sort of like a girl. He had a more feminine voice and he was interested in dolls, making bracelets and artwork, etc. I didn't care at all. That was clearly just who he was.
How my attitudes changed
My homophobia and misconceptions lasted right up until near the beginning of high school. It was then that I started becoming really interested in girls. It was absolute torture seeing girls every day in class, wondering how many agonizing years it would be before I would....ahem....satisfy my carnal urges. :D I didn't want to misbehave, or go against the Bible, or disappoint my parents. But it took tremendous willpower not to stare at girls in school, much less remain chaste until marriage 10 years down the road. No matter how hard I tried, I knew it would be *impossible* for me to willingly hold out that long.

At some point it hit me like a ton of bricks: what would I have done with myself if I had felt this irresistible attraction towards men? My homophobia shifted: gays are just unlucky people who find out during puberty they are attracted to the same sex. How could I possibly expect them to not have sex their ENTIRE lives when I can't even last the 10 years or so it will take to get married? It was suddenly very obvious to me that gay sex could not be considered wrong in any way. The inescapable conclusion was that the Bible was wrong to demand these unreasonable demands on sex, and this shook my faith. I wasn't sure what to think about gay marriage; but I was willing to toe the line I had been taught.

My English teacher
Then I had an English teacher who I heard was gay. On the first day of class, I was nervous, but also very curious. This was a Catholic school, so he could not be openly gay or the parents might raise a furor and get him fired. I was surprised by how normal he was. He was like any English teacher. I wouldn't have known he was gay if people hadn't told me. It was an extremely private thing, after all. Still, the thought of him being with another man was unpleasant for me.

I realized right away how ignorant I had been for imagining every gay person as some tutu-wearing guy with a lisp. I felt a bit bitter, too, like I had been told a great big lie, by the Bible, my parents, pastors, and TV. But I was also relieved that it had been a lie.

My teacher asked the students point-blank at the end of the first day of class, "How many of you support gay marriage?"

Wait a minute, no fair! He can't ask me that. The nerve! I thought I would just have my private beliefs, and he would know how I felt, and we wouldn't talk about it because of the sensitivity of the subject. I thought that was the deal. But instead here was this very funny, very cool teacher in front of me asking how I felt about something he desperately wanted for himself--something which he did not have, and which people like me had the power to grant or deny him.

How could I, some 16-year-old punk kid, look my 30-year-old teacher in the eye and give him a lesson about right and wrong? How could I possibly tell him that his private life was unraveling the moral fabric of our society? How could it possibly be true? If anything, he was an exceptionally principled person; in fact he had been a missionary smuggling Bibles into the Soviet Union in the '80s.

I hesitated, then raised my hand. "How many of you support the right of gays to adopt children?" Again, I raised my hand. Within 50 minutes it had become transparently obvious to me that this man would take care of a child in need as well as any other foster parent. "About half of you raised your hands. Wow, things have changed," he said.

I felt embarrassed and ashamed. I could only imagine how humiliating it would be to reach puberty and realize you like men, even though all your buddies like girls and make fun of "queers" and "****" constantly; to realize you can't possibly meet the moral imperatives of the Bible and your religion; and then for years, to ask some punk teenagers yawning in your class if they'll pretty-please let you try to find someone, and marry them, and be happy like everyone else.

But no; they expect you to drift around your whole life lonely, with no sex until you die. (This is why I think so many Catholic priests are gay. What other recourse is there for a gay man raised devout Catholic?) Kids half your age casually say they understand if you "disagree". Hey, we can agree to disagree. But it's the straight majority that makes the law, not you. For them, your unhappiness in life is a "belief" they've thoughtlessly brought with them from their Christian upbringing through adulthood.

Suffice it to say that since I had that teacher, I have had another gay teacher, gay friends and acquaintances, and a very different outlook.

I've ranted enough and it's late....
 
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BucephalusBB

ABACABB
The first counter I had with a gay was a guy who acted like a girl, calling himself princess and all. It took me some time to not see every gay like that. Nowadays, a gay person is like a straight person, only with better taste in cloting.

I still can't stand girly guys though..
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
I can't remember my first encounter, but my first lengthy encounter was when I worked at a convenience store. My assistant manager was gay. He sometimes asked me out, but he was respectful of my wishes (and I his), and frankly, generally pleasant to be around (being around a gay guy in a ghetto convenience store was far less colorful than some of the heteros that came through there).

I suspect, however, that what you outlined will be the secular argument for Proposition 8. It will proceed, eventually, to the argument that homosexuality is a form of clinical illness With any such hot-button topic, they will get credentialed professionals to agree. It's going to be a very contentious time ahead; I'm not looking forward to it.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
It will proceed, eventually, to the argument that homosexuality is a form of clinical illness...
I think they've long done away with that argument (unless some new angle has emerged). "Confronted with overwhelming empirical evidence and changing cultural views of homosexuality, psychiatrists and psychologists radically altered their views, beginning in the 1970s."

Homosexuality and Mental Health
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
I think they've long done away with that argument (unless some new angle has emerged). "Confronted with overwhelming empirical evidence and changing cultural views of homosexuality, psychiatrists and psychologists radically altered their views, beginning in the 1970s."

Homosexuality and Mental Health

I know they did away with it, but statistics often say what the seeker wants. I can guarantee that in this charged climate, there will be a political bounty for the first researcher to validate that. After that, the idea will gain currency again. It's also the only way that I can see making a sound logical argument against the thing. Necessity, after all, is the mother of all inventions.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
The first counter I had with a gay was a guy who acted like a girl, calling himself princess and all. It took me some time to not see every gay like that. Nowadays, a gay person is like a straight person, only with better taste in cloting.

I still can't stand girly guys though..

There is nothing wrong with being gay or being proud. I do think dramatising homosexuality the way you described portrays a very distorted image of homosexuality which is 9 times out of 10 incorrect. However society recognises those that laugh the loudest so to speak. Girly guys are looking for attention.

To address the OP i was very much the same until about a year ago. My friend has a gay sister. I was scraed to meet her but shes a normal person. Sure she dresses very boyish but what does it matter? She's a normal person and a great laugh.

RF has also helped me view a wide scope of idea's concerning homosexuality.

I think what you're saying is pumping through many people out there. They think of homosexuality as immoral and disgusting only because they're brought up that way. I know i was until i saw it first hand. A lot of people will openly condemn homosexuality based on a few images they've seen of a man dressed as a woman. Most people are completely ignorant of homosexuals and have such a perverted and dramatised opinion of them that they don't know the truth. The truth is that they're normal people just like us.
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
There is nothing wrong with being gay or being proud. I do think dramatising homosexuality the way you described portrays a very distorted image of homosexuality which is 9 times out of 10 incorrect. However society recognises those that laugh the loudest so to speak. Girly guys are looking for attention.
I agree. mind that that vision is long gone. I now know straight guys can be too girly as well :cover:

:p
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I am not proud of what I am about to say. But not saying it doesn't make it any less true.

I'm shocked, Mr. Spinkles! You seem to be arguing here that compassion and a respect for truth are more moral than ideological purity! Frankly, I can understand just about every form of human perversion -- except yours. Repent!
 

Scruffitude

Scruffy Nerf Herder
I came from a broken home and actually got two very different messages, depending on which parent I was spending time with at the moment. My mother insisted that homosexuality was natural, while my father insisted that it was a sin.
I almost hesitate to say that I was raised, or at least my father attempted to do so, LDS (I hesitate to say this because I don't want to sound like I'm "bashing" my former religion). Just so that I don't also inadvertently vilify my father, I for the most part willfully chose to listen to him.
I don't remember hating gays, per se, just believing it was a sin and thinking "they" would go to whatever the Mormon equivalent of Hell is (I don't remember exactly). However, living with my mom I eventually pulled away from the Church and tried to find my own path. Unfortunately, this path led me to a "Christian" (which I put in quotes becuase it was probably anything BUT true Christianity) Youth Group in High School, where all the messages my father tried to fill my head with were practically brainwashed into me.
Again, I don't remember ever hating gays, but this could very well be because I don't want to admit to feeling hatred towards anyone (this is probably an entirely separate topic). It was a very "hate the sin, but not the sinner" mindset, and I bought into it hook, line and sinker.
After I quit hanging out with that youth group, I struggled through College with my beliefs being challenged left and right. I didn't see it then, but those that wanted me to question what I erroneously believed were right. So I hid from my own fears and even tried to run away, metaphorically speaking.
Round about 1996 I came out of this feeling frustrated, and altogether lost. I tried to find my own path, eventually wondering why a God that would create something and then condemn part of what he created as an "abomination" deserved to be worshipped or obeyed. In my heart, I didn't want to believe that God truly would single anyone out like that, but that also clashed with everything I was taught as a kid. I eventually decided that whatever God I thought existed, didn't.
In many ways, I'm still very lost. Trying to find where my ideas fit, if anywhere. For the moment, I would call myself an atheist, but if I were more accurate this would mean I don't have faith in the God of my youth - the vengeful, angry God.
Suffice to say that I'm far more open-minded, but this doesn't mean I can't learn to be more tolerant. For many reasons, this is why I decided to come here - a place where people from all walks of life hang out and share opinions.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I think they've long done away with that argument (unless some new angle has emerged). "Confronted with overwhelming empirical evidence and changing cultural views of homosexuality, psychiatrists and psychologists radically altered their views, beginning in the 1970s."

Homosexuality and Mental Health

The changing cultural views, spurred by a growing civil rights movement under the gay banner, is really responsible for this. As a matter of actual empirical fact, the issue of the homosexuality was much neglected by the psychological community pre 70s, which simply followed the cultural norm that homosexuality is a deviation from a healthy norm. That lack of empirical data was (mis)used in order to further the gay civil rights agenda, including among psychologists.

Since then, the data hasn't improved all that much, largely because of political pressure against conducting that research. Most of the attention has focused on whether homosexuality is genetic, which, even if true, doesn't end the debate over its legitimacy as a healthy expression of sexuality.

In other words, striking homosexuality off the list of psychological disorders was and is a major political coup. It may turn out to be correct, but the issue has been decided, as always, by culture rather than science. If science were permitted to do its work, I'm entirely confident we'd find that the situation was far more complicated than choice or genetics.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
In other words, striking homosexuality off the list of psychological disorders was and is a major political coup. It may turn out to be correct, but the issue has been decided, as always, by culture rather than science. If science were permitted to do its work, I'm entirely confident we'd find that the situation was far more complicated than choice or genetics.
And that confidence is based on what?
 

tomspug

Absorbant
I am not proud of what I am about to say. But not saying it doesn't make it any less true. And I believe this describes the mindset of many who want to prohibit gay marriage.

I've ranted enough and it's late....
(I shortened your post, cuz it wouldn't let me type anything! :D

While homosexuality DOES make me uncomfortable... so does pornography. I don't feel uncomfortable (I feel) in a selfish way. Thinking about the INDIVIDUAL in question, as a person, is what makes me uncomfortable. I know my views on this thread are unpopular, but I am not a homophobe. I earnestly feel that certain things are unhealthy, for the mind, heart and soul. Now, if I believe those things to be true, does that make me a homophobe?

I have no intention of telling people what to do. Maybe if I was a homophobe, I would, and there is no question that there IS a lot of homophobia out there. But there is a lot of "homophobia" that clearly ISN'T out there also. I have encountered a LOT of loving, clear-minded Christians in my short time on this planet, and I guarantee you that they are not sexually ignorant nor have never considered this topic with a large amount of thought.

I have no intention of PUSHING my "agenda", something which I neither have nor want. I have no intention of saying that I am right and others are wrong. But I am allowed to believe the things that I believe, and my belief, it seems clear to me, is an exercise in love. I would gladly like to be told if I have not been loving towards every kind of person, especially if there is anyone on this thread I have not been so towards.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The first counter I had with a gay was a guy who acted like a girl, calling himself princess and all. It took me some time to not see every gay like that. Nowadays, a gay person is like a straight person, only with better taste in cloting.
I remember the first gay guy I knew.

He was in my class from about grade four until grade eight or so, when his family moved back to Botswana. I lost touch with him, but then heard from him years later when he turned 18 and moved back to Canada. He had come out while in Botswana, and apparently had a very difficult time. He said that things were easier in Canada, but I got the impression that his coming out created major problems with his family.

We hadn't been terribly close, and him being on another continent for several years didn't help that, so I only heard from him infrequently after he moved back. It wasn't out of the ordinary to go the better part of a year without hearing from him.

Then, I went off to university. While I was getting to know my dorm mates, it came up that one of the girls from the next dorm house over was from Botswana. I mentioned offhand that I knew someone from Botswana. She asked me his name; I told her. She got a shocked look and said "I know him. He's dead. He killed himself."




Man, I'm depressed now. I think we need a happier story:

Later on in university, I was over at a friend's house doing a report with my lab group. We were all friends, but the other guys knew each other better than I did. In the middle of all this, A turned to J and said out of the blue, "so... if sexual attraction is based on pheremones, does that mean you get turned on by your own smell?"

And that's how I found out he was gay. :D
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Thats an awesome testimony Mr.Sprinkles...I know most people in my generation were raised to believe beign gay was "wrong"...not "normal"..And if you were religious well..you were just backed up by scripture..

I think if you care enough..you do the soul searching as you did..and come to the conclusion its not even about 'right" or "wrong"..or normal or not normal..It just is..the same as heterosexuality..And then you have to embrace and accept the fact that being homesexaul..and acting out that part of you with a consenting adult is hurting no one..anymore than if I have consentual heterosexual sex....because you get the arguments in discussing this for example that pedophilia is what it is..and on and on...

Anyway..I guess my point is..the majority of people from my generation and back..even the homosexuals themselves..have to do a lot of unraveling of ideas about it imprinted in you from childhood on up and like I said soul searching to try and understand....

Love

Dallas
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
, the thought of him being with another man was unpleasant for me.
this is the main breaking point why many don't want gays around, most people think visualy and therefor rather have bloody decapitation and movies of childbirth in there head then even hints of male on male sex
 

Weddy

Forgiven
At some point it hit me like a ton of bricks: what would I have done with myself if I had felt this irresistible attraction towards men? My homophobia shifted: gays are just unlucky people who find out during puberty they are attracted to the same sex. How could I possibly expect them to not have sex their ENTIRE lives when I can't even last the 10 years or so it will take to get married? It was suddenly very obvious to me that gay sex could not be considered wrong in any way.

So, because a man feels an irresistible attraction towards men, that means it's okay for him to have sex with another man? What about men that feel an irresistible attraction towards children? Would you "possibly expect them to not have sex their ENTIRE lives"? No? Because you think that's perverted? Well, that's how some people feel about homosexual sex. Does that make them homophobic? Not necessarily. It just means that it's something they think is wrong. Now, I'm not saying a gay man is the same as a pedofile, but I'm just using that as an example the same way you chose to compare gays with people chewing with their mouths open. I'm a Christian, and I've worked with some people that were openly gay. They were nice, funny, friendly, hardworking people. I liked them and enjoyed their company. I just didn't agree with their lifestyle. :)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So, because a man feels an irresistible attraction towards men, that means it's okay for him to have sex with another man? What about men that feel an irresistible attraction towards children? Would you "possibly expect them to not have sex their ENTIRE lives"? No? Because you think that's perverted? Well, that's how some people feel about homosexual sex. Does that make them homophobic? Not necessarily. It just means that it's something they think is wrong. Now, I'm not saying a gay man is the same as a pedofile, but I'm just using that as an example the same way you chose to compare gays with people chewing with their mouths open. I'm a Christian, and I've worked with some people that were openly gay. They were nice, funny, friendly, hardworking people. I liked them and enjoyed their company. I just didn't agree with their lifestyle. :)

I honestly don't agree with most extremely religious lifestyles but that doesn't prevent me from not only tolerating, but accepting people's right to live religious lifestyles. I'm certainly not going to try to pass a proposition against those lifestyles just as I hope you wouldn't try to pass a proposition against gay marriage.
 
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