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The hypocrites deceives himself while the believers talks to God and the chosen ones.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The hypocrite admires himself and is satisfied with his outward actions even though there is distance from him from God's mercy and proximity mainly because he doesn't ever truly address God. He foremost talks to himself about talking to God. He talks to himself and says "I am being like this to God" "I am being sincere to him and bowing to him sincerely" while not for a second ever feeling shame to God's vision.

The reason why "they try to deceive God and believers", is because they watch themselves with admiring proud eyes. They trick themselves and so seek to trick people with their deception to themselves.

Quran has a very easy solution to this. "if came to you and asked forgiveness of God and the Messenger asked forgiveness for them"

And says about hypocrites "if they are told come, the Messenger of God will ask forgiveness for you you see the hypocrites turn away and they are proud".

But these days they will say "he is dead, he can't hear us, it's shirk to talk to dead people", and hide their arrogancy from seeking intercession of God's chosen in a pious argumentative way.

When you talk to God's chosen, it's not about you anymore, it's about how much you are in need of their intercession and prayers. But the hypocrite will never do it. He tell himself he is a sincere worshiper of God same way Iblis would tell himself that for years. Admiring himself more then God and when tested couldn't remain sincere to God's decision and choice of Adam (a).

When you realize all goodness stems from God through his chosen ones interceding, and that good emanates from their pull towards God by his permission and that they been fighting for you your whole life, you feel ashamed of the evil and don't make big of "your good deeds", but see that it belongs more to God and that without his intercession and the intercession of his chosen ones, we would have long perished.

But the hypocrites knows he is righteous, he has deceived himself almost to the extent of certainty. He measures people's honor by worldly eyes, but tells himself, he is a sincere servant of God and is spiritual.

These people are so confused about good and evil, that even during time of Mohammad (s), they didn't understand who Mohammad's (s) enemies were and took their interpretation of Quran from them.

If they seek intercession of God's chosen, hypocrisy at that moment, is defeated. This is a very easy practical solution that Quran emphasizes on, but don't hold your breathe for them to do it.

Ya Mohammad Ya Ali, Ya Ali Ya Mohammad, help me both, for you both are helpers, and suffice me both, for you both suffice.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The hypocrite admires himself and is satisfied with his outward actions even though there is distance from him from God's mercy and proximity mainly because he doesn't ever truly address God. He foremost talks to himself about talking to God. He talks to himself and says "I am being like this to God" "I am being sincere to him and bowing to him sincerely" while not for a second ever feeling shame to God's vision.

I don't need anything from God.
That's not about pride. It is just about accepting what is and being happy with the truth of the life I have.

If your not happy with life I suppose you need something from God. You're not happy with the life you've been provided and need God to change it.
The problem with the Abrahamic faiths teaching the world is not perfect, your are not perfect, God screwed up creation.

People want heaven because what God created is not good enough for them. :shrug:
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If I understand you correctly, "God's chosen" are those people who have true faith in God?

If so, this OP seems very divisive to me :( It is very much an attempt for those with faith, to separate from others and to judge others poorly.

Now I would guess that in many areas of the faithfuls' lives, they see the need for evidence and proof. But they make an exception when it comes to their faith. And then they double down and judge others for NOT suspending their normal critical thinking capabilities when it comes to God.

Can you explain this set of behaviors?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If I understand you correctly, "God's chosen" are those people who have true faith in God?

Salam

The chosen ones what I mean is not believers, but those who are chosen to be the path for believers. Mainly, those who God chose above other humans including believers and exalted them above. Humans like Abraham, Jacob, Mohammad and Fatima Al-Zahra.

If so, this OP seems very divisive to me :( It is very much an attempt for those with faith, to separate from others and to judge others poorly.

It's that included, but particularly about hypocrites within Islam. And it's particularly about the issue of Tawasul in Islam.

A believer is humble enough to seek intercession of God's chosen, while, hypocrites are too arrogant and proud.

A hypocrite can't recognize he is a hypocrite as well, because he is too proud. The solution in Quran is very simple. Seek intercession of God's chosen and ask forgiveness from God together with the chosen ones. Pray to God through their guidance and help.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
I don't need anything from God.
That's not about pride. It is just about accepting what is and being happy with the truth of the life I have.

If your not happy with life I suppose you need something from God. You're not happy with the life you've been provided and need God to change it.
The problem with the Abrahamic faiths teaching the world is not perfect, your are not perfect, God screwed up creation.

People want heaven because what God created is not good enough for them. :shrug:
Jesus said woe to those who are full now because you will be hungry. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

You Nakosis have everything you need (so you say) and so you don't seek God at all. But Jesus says "woe" to you. To people like you.

No offense but the point of Jesus is that you don't hunger or thirst for the things of God. You're satisfied with yourself; when God has so much more for those who are hungry. So all I'm saying is that such thinking is holding people back. It may not be about pride (although it certainly could be for many people) but it's about complacency.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If your not happy with life I suppose you need something from God. You're not happy with the life you've been provided and need God to change it.

Salam

That's part of the trial, we are suppose to not be satisfied with or even want the life of this world:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا وَرَضُوا بِالْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَاطْمَأَنُّوا بِهَا وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا غَافِلُونَ | Indeed those who do not expect to encounter Us and who are pleased with the life of this world and satisfied with it, and those who are oblivious of Our signs | Yunus : 7

And yes part of is realizing one needs God's help:

"You do we worship, and you do we seek help (from)"(1:5)

But my contention in this thread, is not just about needing God but those who's path is God's path for humans, those who he bestowed the favor of his religion upon for the sake of humans to come to God.

"Guide us the straight path." (1:6)
"The path of those who you favored upon..."(1:7)
 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The hypocrite admires himself and is satisfied with his outward actions even though there is distance from him from God's mercy and proximity mainly because he doesn't ever truly address God. He foremost talks to himself about talking to God. He talks to himself and says "I am being like this to God" "I am being sincere to him and bowing to him sincerely" while not for a second ever feeling shame to God's vision.

The reason why "they try to deceive God and believers", is because they watch themselves with admiring proud eyes. They trick themselves and so seek to trick people with their deception to themselves.

Quran has a very easy solution to this. "if came to you and asked forgiveness of God and the Messenger asked forgiveness for them"

And says about hypocrites "if they are told come, the Messenger of God will ask forgiveness for you you see the hypocrites turn away and they are proud".

But these days they will say "he is dead, he can't hear us, it's shirk to talk to dead people", and hide their arrogancy from seeking intercession of God's chosen in a pious argumentative way.

When you talk to God's chosen, it's not about you anymore, it's about how much you are in need of their intercession and prayers. But the hypocrite will never do it. He tell himself he is a sincere worshiper of God same way Iblis would tell himself that for years. Admiring himself more then God and when tested couldn't remain sincere to God's decision and choice of Adam (a).

When you realize all goodness stems from God through his chosen ones interceding, and that good emanates from their pull towards God by his permission and that they been fighting for you your whole life, you feel ashamed of the evil and don't make big of "your good deeds", but see that it belongs more to God and that without his intercession and the intercession of his chosen ones, we would have long perished.

But the hypocrites knows he is righteous, he has deceived himself almost to the extent of certainty. He measures people's honor by worldly eyes, but tells himself, he is a sincere servant of God and is spiritual.

These people are so confused about good and evil, that even during time of Mohammad (s), they didn't understand who Mohammad's (s) enemies were and took their interpretation of Quran from them.

If they seek intercession of God's chosen, hypocrisy at that moment, is defeated. This is a very easy practical solution that Quran emphasizes on, but don't hold your breathe for them to do it.

Ya Mohammad Ya Ali, Ya Ali Ya Mohammad, help me both, for you both are helpers, and suffice me both, for you both suffice.

It's all a test. God wants to determine which of his creations have embraced the ability to use the logic and reasoned thought that he gave us and those who are still stuck living in gullibility and self-delusion. Anyone who reserves belief in any god entity until there is actually verifiable evidence that some god being actually exists passes the test and anyone who claims to embrace some god being as real without any verifiable evidence fails the test.

Much to his disappointment, it's only the atheists who have passed his test thus far.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Those who make that exception are not truthful and have double standards.

To be clear:

- in many areas of life, the faithful see the value in evidence in proof.
- when it comes to their faith, these same faithful people relax their need for evidence and proof.

This is the default position of any believer in any faith, correct?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Jesus said woe to those who are full now because you will be hungry. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

You Nakosis have everything you need (so you say) and so you don't seek God at all. But Jesus says "woe" to you. To people like you.

No offense but the point of Jesus is that you don't hunger or thirst for the things of God. You're satisfied with yourself; when God has so much more for those who are hungry. So all I'm saying is that such thinking is holding people back. It may not be about pride (although it certainly could be for many people) but it's about complacency.
This is what your religion teaches you so it makes sense that you are looking for something better.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Quran has a very easy solution to this. "if came to you and asked forgiveness of God and the Messenger asked forgiveness for them"

And says about hypocrites "if they are told come, the Messenger of God will ask forgiveness for you you see the hypocrites turn away and they are proud".

But these days they will say "he is dead, he can't hear us, it's shirk to talk to dead people", and hide their arrogancy from seeking intercession of God's chosen in a pious argumentative way.

I offer this is about accepting the Messengers as given by Allah.

Thus I would offer these verses are reflected in our acceptance or rejection of the Message given by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Like Nakosis, I don't need anything from God. But I will take it a step further and say that I don't want God in my life, and no, it's not a matter of me "wanting to sin" as I've been accused of in other similar threads, or a matter of pride either. As far as I'm concerned, my belief, faith, hope, and trust in God were in vain, and being a Christian was an absolute miserable experience for me. I don't need God in my life to be happy or to be a good person. I managed to turn my life around and began to heal emotionally only after I renounced my belief in God and my Christian faith. I finally realized that my belief and faith in God were an emotional crutch, but I chose to give that up and make my life better. In my opinion, my experience of making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, and depending on God validates Penn Jillette's point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Jesus said woe to those who are full now because you will be hungry. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

You Nakosis have everything you need (so you say) and so you don't seek God at all. But Jesus says "woe" to you. To people like you.

No offense but the point of Jesus is that you don't hunger or thirst for the things of God. You're satisfied with yourself; when God has so much more for those who are hungry. So all I'm saying is that such thinking is holding people back. It may not be about pride (although it certainly could be for many people) but it's about complacency.

Counter-point; hungering and thirsting after righteousness is self-destructive, because it's an unrealistic desire that will never be filled and will always leave one unhappy.

It's those who try to control the world instead of themselves who are being held back. Woe to those afraid to be at peace.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Treating hypocrisy as a quality that god-believers are protected from will only lead you to confusion and grave misunderstandings, I am sorry to have to say.

I take it that you are using "hypocrite" as a translation of "kaffir"? That is a fairl good translation. Unfortunately, the discourse is no less confused in Arabic.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Before the science religion theism belief of man. No hypocrite existed.

Natural life all equal lived balanced. Nothing was sacrificed.

Life lived bodily survived supported by reoxygenation of its cellular body.

With earths garden nature balances. The God body oxygenator supporter of our bio life. Garden types.

Everything life needed. Is an exact position holy natural is first. No human theory was ever first.

The hypocrite was the theist of God against gods bases. On earth. As it is in heaven. Planetary owned.

Position one any type of mass.

Each one mass a God type.

If you believed in God. You don't alter Gods form.

Men theist the scientist hypocrite. Knew god. Chose to change God. Changed sacrificed life on earth.

We were taught. Believe only in the presence of the one God. Otherwise you are a hypocrite.

After life's sacrifice it was taught believe in God or else!!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The hypocrite admires himself and is satisfied with his outward actions even though there is distance from him from God's mercy and proximity mainly because he doesn't ever truly address God. He foremost talks to himself about talking to God. He talks to himself and says "I am being like this to God" "I am being sincere to him and bowing to him sincerely" while not for a second ever feeling shame to God's vision.

The reason why "they try to deceive God and believers", is because they watch themselves with admiring proud eyes. They trick themselves and so seek to trick people with their deception to themselves.

Quran has a very easy solution to this. "if came to you and asked forgiveness of God and the Messenger asked forgiveness for them"

And says about hypocrites "if they are told come, the Messenger of God will ask forgiveness for you you see the hypocrites turn away and they are proud".

But these days they will say "he is dead, he can't hear us, it's shirk to talk to dead people", and hide their arrogancy from seeking intercession of God's chosen in a pious argumentative way.

When you talk to God's chosen, it's not about you anymore, it's about how much you are in need of their intercession and prayers. But the hypocrite will never do it. He tell himself he is a sincere worshiper of God same way Iblis would tell himself that for years. Admiring himself more then God and when tested couldn't remain sincere to God's decision and choice of Adam (a).

When you realize all goodness stems from God through his chosen ones interceding, and that good emanates from their pull towards God by his permission and that they been fighting for you your whole life, you feel ashamed of the evil and don't make big of "your good deeds", but see that it belongs more to God and that without his intercession and the intercession of his chosen ones, we would have long perished.

But the hypocrites knows he is righteous, he has deceived himself almost to the extent of certainty. He measures people's honor by worldly eyes, but tells himself, he is a sincere servant of God and is spiritual.

These people are so confused about good and evil, that even during time of Mohammad (s), they didn't understand who Mohammad's (s) enemies were and took their interpretation of Quran from them.

If they seek intercession of God's chosen, hypocrisy at that moment, is defeated. This is a very easy practical solution that Quran emphasizes on, but don't hold your breathe for them to do it.

Ya Mohammad Ya Ali, Ya Ali Ya Mohammad, help me both, for you both are helpers, and suffice me both, for you both suffice.
I might be flirting with a rule violation, but...
This post strikes me as hostile & bigoted proselytizing.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Those who make that exception are not truthful and have double standards.

How does your original post coincide with your original post in your non-judgment thread? Aren't you passing judgment on those who reject your God by calling them "hypocritical," "proud," and "deceived"? How does your other post coincide with your original post?

It's shown by logic. It's paradoxical.

Make a list of things "judgmental" judgments shame others about. And you shame all "those shame judgments".

So both shaming same amount.

Thus it's paradoxical. This is analytical, doesn't matter what religion is true as far as this goes.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Salam

That's part of the trial, we are suppose to not be satisfied with or even want the life of this world:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا وَرَضُوا بِالْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَاطْمَأَنُّوا بِهَا وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا غَافِلُونَ | Indeed those who do not expect to encounter Us and who are pleased with the life of this world and satisfied with it, and those who are oblivious of Our signs | Yunus : 7

And yes part of is realizing one needs God's help:

"You do we worship, and you do we seek help (from)"(1:5)

But my contention in this thread, is not just about needing God but those who's path is God's path for humans, those who he bestowed the favor of his religion upon for the sake of humans to come to God.

"Guide us the straight path." (1:6)
"The path of those who you favored upon..."(1:7)

Well, I guess I was not so bestowed so it all works out since I don't need God to do anything for me.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

A hypocrite in context of Quran and Hadiths is a Muslim who is not sincere in his faith.

They profess outwardly faith and trick themselves they are righteous.

My post is about how tawasul would stop the self-deception of such Muslims but they refuse to do it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Salam

A hypocrite in context of Quran and Hadiths is a Muslim who is not sincere in his faith.

They profess outwardly faith and trick themselves they are righteous.

And yet Muslims go out of their way to insist that they own children and neighbors - actually, everybody - ought to be behave as believers in the Qur'an... as the Qur'an itself strongly encourages, no less.

My post is about how tawasul would stop the self-deception of such Muslims but they refuse to do it.

Tawassul is apparently a word meaning "proximity to someone in a position of power ("Wasilah"). Your post #4 seems to imply that for the purposes of this thread what you mean by Tawasul is somewhat different from that definition: an attitude of begging for God's Chosen. An attitude not too far distanced from the literal meaning of the word "Islam", come to think of it.

You go on to say that those who disagree are blind to that need due to excessive pride.

That is allowing yourself a lot indeed of certainty about the abilities, needs and flaws of other people, @Link

But more significant is that demanding people who may well simply lack the vocation to be believers in either the existence of Allah or in the favor given by Allah to whoever might qualify as God's Chosen by your view to ask for their forgiveness is very far from a solution to your disagreement with those people.

If anything, you are much, much more likely to be asking them to pretend belief and thereby nurture hypocrisy instead.
 
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