The idea of hell is emotionally draining.

[Link]

God will torture him? Forever?

Sadam for certain. I will go to details why but it's two different things, tyrants are the most evil of God's creation and humans can easily see fallen state of a human to the degree of deserving hell when we think of their crimes.

Disbelievers and Tyrants, proof for each, is different. Quran offers both, so let's start with the worse case scenario of a human.

 

[Link]

The moral question, is it petty or moral righteous to want God to exact vengeance on Sadam?

I'm going to be arguing it's the latter.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The idea of hell is emotionally draining.

That's why I gave it up.

 

[Link]

The idea of hell is emotionally draining.

That's why I gave it up.

Same for five years. But no justice when reflected about is also emotionally draining. When my uncle was tortured in that time (when I was non-Muslim) for want of freedom and justice for people by an unjust monarchy that my country (Canada) fully supports and endorses and works with US and other countries to keep their tyrant regime in place, it made me want to believe in hell again.

 

[Spirit of Light]

When I left Islam for five years, my mind was twisted in a way to find faults in Quran. But emotionally the reason I was motivated to leave Islam and find faults was the idea of hell for disbelievers (I knew the concept of mustafeen and it was not that being the problem).

How you emotional phrase a moral question like for example, why suffering exists in the world, will make you disbelieve very easily. This is why it's important for me to pay attention to the proofs and insights in Quran proving hell and particular to disbelievers and the different levels of it because without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam.

Here is a poem I wrote way back:

Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief

Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honoring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.





Comment: The idea of hell being denied by the wicked people is all over Quran. At the end, the battle between truth and falsehood in my view, will be a battle between soothsayers type religion and the Prophets and sent ones religion, and there will not be different versions of the latter, because Mahdi and Jesus will bring miracles. It's just at this point, some will accuse them of being sorcerers and gained their power through skill and knowledge rather then being given that power from God which is disbelief in God's Lordship.

Hi @Link

First of all maybe it is wise to ask one self, what is Hell? What make a being end up there? and is the suffering we see because of Hell? or is it because when we suffer it is a sign from Allah that we have still more to learn, more to understand?

Hell is in my understanding the opposite of Heaven,
So if you do follow the law and the guidance of Allah would you still think you may end up in Hell?
Or it is when we do no longer pay attention to the teaching and we become more focused on the materalistic world, and ego, selfishness and so creaping in to our heart?

When i come to Islam (sufism) that was the moment my faith truly found a solid ground to stand on, so even when life become difficult, it is possible to gain wisdom from the teaching
I do not have a lot of wisdom, and in the big picture i am only a tiny dust particle, but i still believe Allah see the action, words and thoghts we have. we can only do as best we can to be servant and be a good muslim

I wish you all the best.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I believe Quran proves hell as a concept in itself and has proofs why disbelievers of various levels deserve it and not only deserve it, why God's compassion won't save them from it if they don't repent and change in time.

This is different then to say I believe Quran is a book from God and then because it talks about hell, I believe in hell.

It's two different things. I believe the latter is very hard to maintain. To maintain belief of hell simply because Quran says so is very hard, and for me especially, since I was not acquainted with eloquent miracles of Quran that much or knew very little about eloquence.

In my view, the very idea of trying to frighten people witless with the idea of hell if they don't happen to believe "the right thing" (and everybody's got a different "right thing") is the worst reason to have faith that there is.

I'll leave "Big Brother" and the thought police to the novel "1984," where they belong. They're not useful in my reality.

 

[joe1776]

It's hardly limited to those two religions. Reward and punishment is part of the personal egoic self. Watch atheist parents with children and you'll often see it in action.

We are slowly growing up as a species and need that carrot and stick less and less.

You misunderstood. I explained why the founders of Christianity and Islam invented Heaven and Hell. I did not limit reward and punishment to their use. In fact, I led into that explanation by noting that other animal species can be trained with that method as well.

 

[Colt]

When I left Islam for five years, my mind was twisted in a way to find faults in Quran. But emotionally the reason I was motivated to leave Islam and find faults was the idea of hell for disbelievers (I knew the concept of mustafeen and it was not that being the problem).

How you emotional phrase a moral question like for example, why suffering exists in the world, will make you disbelieve very easily. This is why it's important for me to pay attention to the proofs and insights in Quran proving hell and particular to disbelievers and the different levels of it because without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam.

Here is a poem I wrote way back:

Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief

Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honoring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.





Comment: The idea of hell being denied by the wicked people is all over Quran. At the end, the battle between truth and falsehood in my view, will be a battle between soothsayers type religion and the Prophets and sent ones religion, and there will not be different versions of the latter, because Mahdi and Jesus will bring miracles. It's just at this point, some will accuse them of being sorcerers and gained their power through skill and knowledge rather then being given that power from God which is disbelief in God's Lordship.

Hell was invented by religious leaders to keep people in line.

If God created an eternal place of torture then he is a monster beyond any descriptive words in any language.

Those who don't want to continue on simply cease to exist as persons. .

 

[John1.12]

When I left Islam for five years, my mind was twisted in a way to find faults in Quran. But emotionally the reason I was motivated to leave Islam and find faults was the idea of hell for disbelievers (I knew the concept of mustafeen and it was not that being the problem).

How you emotional phrase a moral question like for example, why suffering exists in the world, will make you disbelieve very easily. This is why it's important for me to pay attention to the proofs and insights in Quran proving hell and particular to disbelievers and the different levels of it because without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam.

Here is a poem I wrote way back:

Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief

Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honoring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.





Comment: The idea of hell being denied by the wicked people is all over Quran. At the end, the battle between truth and falsehood in my view, will be a battle between soothsayers type religion and the Prophets and sent ones religion, and there will not be different versions of the latter, because Mahdi and Jesus will bring miracles. It's just at this point, some will accuse them of being sorcerers and gained their power through skill and knowledge rather then being given that power from God which is disbelief in God's Lordship.

In the bible, hell was not created for man ,but the devil and fallen angels.

 

[John1.12]

Hell was invented by religious leaders to keep people in line.

If God created an eternal place of torture then he is a monster beyond any descriptive words in any language.

Those who don't want to continue on simply cease to exist as persons. .

Jesus spoke more on hell than anyone else in the bible.

 

[Shakeel]

Do you think we as humans should deny our hearts and instead become heartless, if we are to be true believers in God?

Denying something your heart says doesn't make you heartless.

My opinion hell is what you make if it, if hell is God's will for me then I'll play my part in His plan the best I can.

So highly unbiblical.

 

[Colt]

Jesus spoke more on hell than anyone else in the bible.

Because death was translated as "hell" in a number of cases by people who believed in a hell place.

I took this picture of Gehenna or "hell" as it was known in Jesus' day. It was a nasty trash pit back then with fires burning continuously. Today its a lovely park.

 

[Ashoka]

Because death was translated as "hell" in a number of cases by people who believed in a hell place.

I took this picture of Gehenna or "hell" as it was known in Jesus' day. It was a nasty trash pit back then with fires burning continuously. Today its a lovely park.

View attachment 51238

When I realized this, that Jesus was talking about Gehenna, or the Valley of the Sons of Hinnon, my fear of an eternal hell went away. It was considered to be a cursed place where human sacrifice took place, if I remember correctly?

 

[Colt]

When I realized this, that Jesus was talking about Gehenna, or the Valley of the Sons of Hinnon, my fear of an eternal hell went away. It was considered to be a cursed place where human sacrifice took place, if I remember correctly?

Yes, I took this photo of it when I was in Jerusalem. Its also believed to be where Judas hung himself.

 

[idea]

...
If God created an eternal place of torture then he is a monster beyond any descriptive words in any language.
.. .

I agree, with those who worship such a being becoming monsters as well.

 

[idea]

The moral question, is it petty or moral righteous to want God to exact vengeance on Sadam?

I'm not sure who "Sadam" is, but for all which we see as evil, I view as an "empty boat".

Here is a story -
Imagine you are out in your new boat on the river, fishing, enjoying nature, beautiful day out. All of a sudden, another boat slams into you, perhaps denting your boat, putting a crack in it. First instinct is to become angry. Now, imagine the boat that rammed you is empty, there is no one there to be angry at. Another way to think of it, imagine it was just an old tree that was floating down the river. An old tree - there is nothing to be angry at, right?

I see those who do evil acts as being "empty", just following laws of nature with no understanding of a higher way to be. They are just empty, have not been filled with light or love, have not been filled with understanding.

Anger hurts yourself more than it hurts another, to live in peace is to live without anger, to live without hate.

 

[John1.12]

Because death was translated as "hell" in a number of cases by people who believed in a hell place.

I took this picture of Gehenna or "hell" as it was known in Jesus' day. It was a nasty trash pit back then with fires burning continuously. Today its a lovely park.

View attachment 51238

Yes I hear this ' twist ' all the time . It would have worked ,except the context doesn't fit a ' rubbish dump " . Context , context, context trumps word games.

 

[Colt]

Yes I hear this ' twist ' all the time . It would have worked ,except the context doesn't fit a ' rubbish dump " . Context , context, context trumps word games.

Maybe eternal torment makes sense to you because that's what you would do?

 

[John1.12]

Maybe eternal torment makes sense to you because that's what you would do?

Thank goodness you and I are not in charge wouldn't we shudder to think ?

 

[Colt]

Thank goodness you and I are not in charge wouldn't we shudder to think ?

People might fear a great and terrible God but they will only truly Love a good God. But if such a God as you describe really existed, each day I was in Hell would reaffirm why I never loved him to begin with. There is no love in him.