The idea of hell is emotionally draining.

[Brickjectivity]

When I left Islam for five years, my mind was twisted in a way to find faults in Quran. But emotionally the reason I was motivated to leave Islam and find faults was the idea of hell for disbelievers (I knew the concept of mustafeen and it was not that being the problem).

This was also a problem for me as a young Christian charismatic. I couldn't understand how it worked. I was not, however, in the same situation as you. There was not a Quran in my life. NT support for hell was sketchy, and I had only the claims of preachers to go by. Eventually I dropped the idea of a literal fiery torturous eternity.

 

[Truthseeker]

But the proofs themselves in Quran, convince me. It's not that the Quran says so, it's the proofs and insights to hell I derived it from Quran. Actually this is not fair to say. I realized from teachings of (1) Quran (2) Ahadith to compliment it (3) reasoning with respect to wahdatal Wujood (4) Signs within oneself.

It's these 4 combined that made come to belief in it. I didn't believe in Quran so the proofs in Quran had to prove me hellfire. Proving Messengers doesn't prove Mohammad (s) to be one or Jesus (a) to be one and hellfire has independent proofs. You don't need to believe in Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) to be convinced of the proofs for it in Quran.

I believe hell is being deprived of the blessings of of God, being in the grip of passions and evil thoughts, not being freed of them by God. That's one way to look at it from a Baha'i perspective.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's not emotionally draining to many, as they don't believe in it.

 

[Ashoka]

It's not emotionally draining to many, as they don't believe in it.

To those of us that grew up with it, it can be triggering and cause PTSD symptoms, especially if you were threatened with it so much throughout your young life.

 

[Vinayaka]

To those of us that grew up with it, it can be triggering and cause PTSD symptoms, especially if you were threatened with it so much throughout your young life.

Yes, I've heard that. I must be a lucky one. I think the first time I heard of the concept I was likely 15 or so, and I would have went ... "What?"

 

[Shakeel]

I do not find it draining and I surmise it's because I believe in it strongly. What becomes draining are things we can't accept.

 

[Truthseeker]

But the proofs themselves in Quran, convince me. It's not that the Quran says so, it's the proofs and insights to hell I derived it from Quran. Actually this is not fair to say. I realized from teachings of (1) Quran (2) Ahadith to compliment it (3) reasoning with respect to wahdatal Wujood (4) Signs within oneself.

It's these 4 combined that made come to belief in it. I didn't believe in Quran so the proofs in Quran had to prove me hellfire. Proving Messengers doesn't prove Mohammad (s) to be one or Jesus (a) to be one and hellfire has independent proofs. You don't need to believe in Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) to be convinced of the proofs for it in Quran.

By the way, what do you consider to be a nonbeliever? A non-Muslim? Probably not. I know of the following in the Qur'an:

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muḥammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans—whoever believeth in Alláh and the Last Day and doeth right—surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 2:62

 

[Windwalker]

Denying something your heart says doesn't make you heartless.

It makes you insincere and disingenuous, at first. And if that part of ourselves we deny like that becomes callused enough, we dissociate ourselves from our own true feelings. That is not the path of a spiritual truth and Life. That only leads to error and sin against Goodness and Truth.

 

[Shakeel]

It makes you insincere and disingenuous, at first. And if that part of ourselves we deny like that becomes callused enough, we dissociate ourselves from our own true feelings. That is not the path of a spiritual truth and Life. That only leads to error and sin against Goodness and Truth.

Your first claim needs backing. We can make decisions either with our mind or with out heart, so to speak - or with both.

Head vs Heart: How Decision-Making Processes Influence Lives & Careers

There is nothing automatically insincere about making decisions with logic rather than with emotions.

 

[RestlessSoul]

In the bible, hell was not created for man ,but the devil and fallen angels.

The doctrine of Universal Salvation , as taught by early Christians like Gregory of Nyssa, holds that even Satan will be redeemed if he submits to God's will.

This was also John Milton's view, expressed in Paradise Lost; a poem which ranks alongside the greatest achievements in the history of religious art.

 

[RestlessSoul]

People might fear a great and terrible God but they will only truly Love a good God. But if such a God as you describe really existed, each day I was in Hell would reaffirm why I never loved him to begin with. There is no love in him.

But the conflict you are describing is in you, not in God.


Heaven and hell are both within us, I think. And the choice of which way to turn, is also in us.

 

[John1.12]

The doctrine of Universal Salvation , as taught by early Christians like Gregory of Nyssa, holds that even Satan will be redeemed if he submits to God's will.

This was also John Milton's view, expressed in Paradise Lost; a poem which ranks alongside the greatest achievements in the history of religious art.

Thats why its best to stick to the bible.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Thats why its best to stick to the bible.

Each to his own. I consider it best to read as widely as possible, always critically, always with an open mind. God gave us brains to use, and eyes to see.

 

[Colt]

But the conflict you are describing is in you, not in God.


Heaven and hell are both within us, I think. And the choice of which way to turn, is also in us.

The "conflict" is between truth and error. The common concept of a "hell place" for condemned souls in the afterlife verses eternal death.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The "conflict" is between truth and error. The common concept of a "hell place" for condemned souls in the afterlife verses eternal death.

Conflict appears to be part of the nature of our material existence. Conflict, contradiction, duality, paradox; the world as we experience it is built on this. Though not only this.

The concept of heaven and hell as ultimate destinations, ceases to make much sense if you allow for the possibility that the true nature of time is non linear. So we are not ‘going’ to die, nor are we ‘going’ to heaven or hell. Time’s Arrow is, perhaps, an illusion. But an irrefutable one, in our material world. Paradox, again.

 

[Colt]

Conflict appears to be part of the nature of our material existence. Conflict, contradiction, duality, paradox; the world as we experience it is built on this. Though not only this.

The concept of heaven and hell as ultimate destinations, ceases to make much sense if you allow for the possibility that the true nature of time is non linear. So we are not ‘going’ to die, nor are we ‘going’ to heaven or hell. Time’s Arrow is, perhaps, an illusion. But an irrefutable one, in our material world. Paradox, again.

The fact of life or death is logical. Those who desire to continue on will find eternal life and those who do not will find eternal death.

The Son of God showed us life after apparent death of the mortal body.

 

[joe1776]

The moral question, is it petty or moral righteous to want God to exact vengeance on Sadam?

I'm going to be arguing it's the latter.

If a Creator exists, and I do allow the possibility, it loves all of us unconditionally. What that means is that Gandhi was right when he advised us to "hate the sin; love the sinner. "

If I'm right about that, his Creator would regard Sadam as sick not evil. We don't extract vengeance on the sick.

 

[Link]

If a Creator exists, and I do allow the possibility, it loves all of us unconditionally. What that means is that Gandhi was right when he advised us to "hate the sin; love the sinner. "

If I'm right about that, his Creator would regard Sadam as sick not evil. We don't extract vengeance on the sick.

I think we disagree, God has compassion for all, but that even has limits. There are people like Sadam Hussein who deserve his wrath forever.

 

[Link]

When I think of Tyrants like Saddam Hussein, I naturally incline to belief in hell-fire. Their deeds manifest a fallen state of a human being that I believe deserves such vengeance.

Vengeance itself is not a bad thing. It's bad if it's not preceded by compassion and forbearance. God gives time for his creature to repent and so this not the case, that God's vengeance was right away.

 

[Windwalker]

Your first claim needs backing. We can make decisions either with our mind or with out heart, so to speak - or with both.

Head vs Heart: How Decision-Making Processes Influence Lives & Careers

There is nothing automatically insincere about making decisions with logic rather than with emotions.

Who made this about making decisions between this job or that job, using your emotions or your cognitive faculties to reason a list of pros and cons, as opposed to your emotions driving you? That really is dealing with something else outside what we are addressing here.

More appropriately would be this analogy. You see a group of violent teenagers kicking an old lady laying on the ground. In your heart of hearts, you know this is terribly wrong. But someone tells you this is God's will, and they show you a verse from scripture that they interpret for you that justifies their evil actions. Now, because you are friends with the group they are part of, and are being told you should not object to this, because if you were a true servant of God, you would see God has a purpose behind this, and that this should be seen as justice, truth, and goodness instead, you are faced with a dilemma.

Now, you have a real conflict between what your soul knows to be inherently wrong, and being told this is inherently good by those who you wish to respect and follow. Who should you believe in this case? Absolutely, you should go with the witness of your heart, and not let reason be twisted and manipulated into rationalizing away and obvious evil and calling that good! If you do sever your heart that way, you will become jaded, and callused, and spiritual dead.

1 Timothy 4:2 speaks of those, "whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron". That's what I mean by dissociation. That's what I mean by not listening to your heart. That is way beyond the reason vs. emotions argument in decision making processes. It has to do with your character and your soul.

Now apply all of that to hearing about how God is Love, and Grace, and Compassion, and then hearing about the flames of hell he sends those who don't convert to the right religion? Now you either are fine murdering and torturing others, or you aren't but turn a blind eye away from it and deny your own soul, and try to rationalize it away. That is what we are talking about.