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The importance of the EVIDENCE in science

gnostic

The Lost One
I have noticed that some people don’t understand what EVIDENCE are.
  • Some people that you can make up any claim, and this claim is evidence to whatever ones believe to be true.
  • Some other people think that evidence are maths.
  • Some do think that any statement and concept can be considered scientific without any evidence.
All of them are wrong.

So what is evidence?

Evidence is the reality, and it is physical phenomena, possibly natural, but sometimes it is man-made or artificial.

And this is very important to remember, the evidence is independent to any concept, to any explanation and to any model (eg explanatory model, predictive model or logical model in a new hypothesis or the current scientific theory).

The physical phenomena (natural or artificial) is independent to scientific theory, but theory does rely on the physical evidence of that phenomena.

Put it this way, the theory is an attempt by scientists to understand the physical phenomena, and they do by trying to logically explain the phenomena.

Once that explanation (including the predictions) have been formulated it, scientists would try to test their explanations/predictions, through discovery and OBSERVATIONS of the EVIDENCE (eg uncontrolled fieldwork) or through EXPERIMENTS (normally performed in controlled environments, like a laboratory)...or both.

In a newly formulated hypothesis, the EVIDENCE will
  1. either “verify” the hypothesis as being “probable”,
  2. or “refute” the hypothesis, because the hypothesis is “improbable”.
It is the EVIDENCE that test the model (hypothesis or theory), not the other way around.

Those two are the likely outcomes for a falsifiable hypothesis. And only with point one #1, that the hypothesis could be a candidate to becoming a “scientific theory” (but only if presented to Peer Review).

Without evidence, any concepts or models you can think of, are not considered science or scientific.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I would also like to add to the OP, that the physical phenomena may not be properly understood with the initial model.

Other scientists with better understanding of the physical phenomena may later, either modify the existing model or replace it completely with an alternative model.

But whichever is the case, the modified or replacement model must be tested first before it being accepted as science, and testing requiring evidence.

The point is that science may take a long time to understand the phenomena.

For instance, the geocentric model of planetary motion, where the Earth is stationary, and everything in the sky, including the Sun, revolve around the Earth, have been used in far back as Bronze Age Egyptian and Babylonian astronomy. In the 3rd century BCE, the Greek astronomer Aristarchus of Samos, was first to propose the heliocentric model, where the Earth orbited around the stationary Sun, but his proposal was unpopular with a majority of people in ancient and medieval time. It took over 1500 years for Copernicus and Galileo to understand, and to verify and validate Aristarchus' model.

Kepler correctly modified Copernicus' circular orbits with elliptical orbits, and Newton apply gravity as the forces that keep the planets in motions.

Here, is where people understanding of the phenomena have changed over time.

As you can see, it may take a number of people to understand and to contribute to the knowledge in science, just as it make take to reach understanding the phenomena.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Your post is a mess and I have no intention of going over every point again and again.

Suffice to say that "evidence" underlies theory is simply wrong. "Evidence" comes to be seen as only that which supports theory and things that don't support theory are invisible to the theorist. Only experiment can support or establish theory.

"Evidence" underlies hypothesis. Each individual is supposed to look at all the physical evidence and form hypothesis thereby.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All of them are wrong.

So what is evidence?
We teach children (despite decades of attempts at reform), as well as some popular/sensationalist science presentations. However, it makes little to no contact with how scientific inquiry actually works, the nature of science (NOS), actual scientific practices & methods, or indeed with the ways in which evidence (or theory, or hypothesis, or even peer-review) is actually used or understood in the sciences.


evidence is independent to any concept, to any explanation and to any model (eg explanatory model, predictive model or logical model in a new hypothesis or the current scientific theory).

Einstein called a far superior, more sophisticated approach to scientific epistemology and methodology “nonsense” for reasons that hold all the more true if your description were at all accurate: “the theory decides...what we can observe.”

"But you don't seriously believe," Einstein protested, "that none but observable magnitudes must go into a physical theory?" "Isn't that precisely what you have done with relativity?" I asked in some surprise. "After all, you did stress the fact that it is impermissible to speak of absolute time, simply because absolute time cannot be observed; that only clock readings, be it in the moving reference system or the system at rest, are relevant to the determination of time."
"Possibly I did use this kind of reasoning," Einstein admitted, "but it is nonsense all the same. Perhaps I could put it more diplomatically by saying that it may be heuristically useful to keep in mind what one has actually observed. But on principle, it is quite wrong to try founding a theory on observable magnitudes alone. In reality the very opposite happens. It is the theory which decides what we can observe.
(source)
The vast majority of scientific evidence cannot even be read without already understanding and applying a net of theoretical frameworks in which the research is situated. In some cases, the theory is a derived structure formulated out of the mathematical and theoretical structures of other theories and constraints imposed by desiderata. The standard model of particle physics is built, for example, out of the product structure of the groups that govern the individual quantum field theories governing the terms and parameters and so forth of the SM Lagrangian.

These quantum field theories are, in turn, constructed out of the constraints imposed by combining special relativity and Poincaré invariance with the formalisms of QM and its unitary evolution. In particular, demanding locality vastly restricts the landscape of possible theories and the nature of possible experimental data in interpreted in light in particular of the manner in which we can apply the quantum-mechanical statistical structure to devices when relativistic mass-energy equivalences must be taken into account together with the (generally) non-commutativity of observables in experiments involving e.g., cross-sections from scattering and the like.

Put more simply, we can’t have particle physics without taking the mathematical and theoretical structures of quantum theory together with the symmetries of (special) relativistic spacetimes and locality.

It would be impossible to even attempt to understand what it might be for quarks (for example) to have any physical reality without applying the unification of different fundamental theories in physics.


Evidence is the reality, and it is physical phenomena, possibly natural, but sometimes it is man-made or artificial.

The physical phenomena (natural or artificial) is independent to scientific theory, but theory does rely on the physical evidence of that phenomena.
Theories do not exist in isolation from one another, nor from the mathematical formalisms or similar structure they may employ. Thus, for example, it is impossible to speak of evidence from e.g., experiments involving brain scans/neuroimaging on the neural basis/nature of language (or subsets thereof) without invoking electromagnetism as a theory underlying much of the relevant dynamics of single neurons, linguistics to tell us what e.g., "verbs" are, etc.
More fundamentally, the entirety of the "field" concept that underlies much of classical physics and all of fundamental modern physics (as well as a great deal more) exists firstly in terms of a visual and conceptual aid Faraday devised to cope with his inability to understand mathematics, second as a formalism, and third as a locality constraint used evidentially to rule out certain theories.

Once that explanation (including the predictions) have been formulated it, scientists would try to test their explanations/predictions, through discovery and OBSERVATIONS of the EVIDENCE (eg uncontrolled fieldwork) or through EXPERIMENTS (normally performed in controlled environments, like a laboratory)...or both.
More "science education" myths. Organizations such as the AAAS and NAS have tried for decades to overturn this naive, completely misleading characterization with apparently little success. But please to try to "educate" people on the nature of scientific evidence and scientific research when you are not familiar with the former and clearly do not read the latter.

In a newly formulated hypothesis, the EVIDENCE will
  1. either “verify” the hypothesis as being “probable”,
  2. or “refute” the hypothesis, because the hypothesis is “improbable”.
It is the EVIDENCE that test the model (hypothesis or theory), not the other way around.
Completely wrong most of the time. For example, the first test of most theories is their consistency with other theories and logical structures. The second is retrodiction or the like.
Also, Popper's falsifiability criterion is outmoded and too misunderstood in the popularized version to be of use.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Your post is a mess and I have no intention of going over every point again and again.

Suffice to say that "evidence" underlies theory is simply wrong. "Evidence" comes to be seen as only that which supports theory and things that don't support theory are invisible to the theorist. Only experiment can support or establish theory.

"Evidence" underlies hypothesis. Each individual is supposed to look at all the physical evidence and form hypothesis thereby.
Theory is based off evidence. It's not the other way around.

Theory itself of course is educated speculation that is built off previous evidence that had since become established fact.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Theory is based off evidence. It's not the other way around.

Theory itself of course is educated speculation that is built off previous evidence that had since become established fact.
So no testing of this evidence and these theories enters into it? It remains speculation?

Hadn't we been doing that for thousands of years, without arriving at any useful concordance?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Theory is based off evidence. It's not the other way around.

Theory itself of course is educated speculation that is built off previous evidence that had since become established fact.


"Evidence" obviously is integral to the scientific process/ method at every juncture/ step. But "evidence" is what exists and not only what supports hypothesis or theory.

You're correct to the degree that evidence that underlies hypothesis also necessarily includes experimental results and theory additionally but this is much more by the nature of the theorist rather than the nature of science. You can't take the theory out of a scientist. But most of the big changes in science involve a scientist who started "fresh" with the evidence rather than with the established means of interpreting evidence; theory.

"Invention" is the parlor trick of science while the real progress takes place in experiment design and hypothesis. But the real changes in science take place not in "peer review" which changes one funeral (death) at a time but in the interpretation that changes one individual (life) at a time.


The problem with "evidence" is that it is always subject to the beliefs of the observer. You can not found theory on evidence even though in a very real way we do and theory itself is "evidence". It is important to remember that it is experiment and only experiment that removes the observer from the observed. Only experiment is reality in scientific theory. Unfortunately this is scarcely understood today so there is a lot of very bad science masquerading as truth or reality. The purveyors of most of this bad science will usually tell you it is based on "evidence". This is because real science and real understanding are based on experiment.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the post.

(source)
The vast majority of scientific evidence cannot even be read without already understanding and applying a net of theoretical frameworks in which the research is situated. In some cases, the theory is a derived structure formulated out of the mathematical and theoretical structures of other theories and constraints imposed by desiderata. The standard model of particle physics is built, for example, out of the product structure of the groups that govern the individual quantum field theories governing the terms and parameters and so forth of the SM Lagrangian.


from source ;

"
You must appreciate that observation is a very complicated process. The phenomenon under observation produces certain events in our measuring apparatus. As a result, further processes take place in the apparatus, which eventually and by complicated paths produce sense impressions and help us to fix the effects in our consciousness. Along this whole path—from the phenomenon to its fixation in our consciousness—we must be able to tell how nature functions, must know the natural laws at least in practical terms, before we can claim io have observed anything at all. Only theory, that is, knowledge of natural laws, enables us to deduce the underlying phenomena from our sense impressions. When we claim that we can observe something new, we ought really to be saying that, although we are about to formulate new natural laws that do not agree with the old ones, we nevertheless assume that the existing laws—covering the whole path from the phenomenon to our consciousness—function in such a way that we can rely upon them and hence speak of 'observations.'"


It must also be noted that while most scientists are quite capable of reading gauges and noting "evidence" especially in the closed confines of experiment that nobody can experience these things directly and we tend to not experience or note anything that lies too far outside of our expectations. The most important "evidence" often lies right at our noses quite unseen.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
“Evidence” is often misunderstood by those who study very little of science, or those who aren’t good at science.

And then there are those let their religious beliefs or religious agendas to dictate what they cannot believe (especially YEC creationists and ID creationists), and therefore they either ignore what the evidence are (due to their ignorance), or they deliberately mislead what the evidence indicate.

I am talking about their frequent uses of the words, “proof” & “prove”.

There are two possible reasons why they would use word “proof”, instead of “evidence”.

They (eg creationists) think “evidence” & “proof” are synonymous to each other, because they have been watching too many movies or tv series of detective drama or courtroom drama, where two words are used interchangeably.

The second reason is they (eg creationists) think “proofs” are superior than “evidence”.

In both cases, they don’t understand what “proof” and “evidence” are in science.

Proofs are only logical models or logical statements, often expressed mathematically as equations or formulas, with combination of variables, constants and numbers.

While mathematical equations (proofs) are useful tools used in science and engineering, THEY ARE NOT EVIDENCE of anything, nor are equations superior than evidence.

Sciences rely on evidence - the more there, the better - because the evidence test the hypothesis or theory, if it is “probable” or “improbable”. Proofs or equations don’t do that.

Evidence are the physical thing, whereas proofs (eg equations, formulas) are abstract concepts, man-made logic.

And being man-made and abstract, there are chances that the equations or proofs could be wrong, if the evidence debunked the proofs.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
“Evidence” is often misunderstood by those who study very little of science, or those who aren’t good at science.
What is the point of trying to "educate" those whose familiarity with and understanding of scientific methods and the nature of science by presenting a fundamentally flawed, mischaracterization of the actual practice of science, the way that scientists understand and use evidence, and finally top this all off with some (at best) misleading statements about formal proofs?
I absolutely agree that often individuals in debates of a political or religious nature (for example) will engage in rhetoric involving the misuse use or inappropriate use of terms like "prove" of "proof" and so forth. Proof is (generally speaking) for mathematics. In some sciences, it is also fundamental, but the difference is that proofs in the sciences cannot take the axioms that proofs require as true by definition as in mathematics and (symbolic or formal) logic.
An appropriate response would be to point out that e.g., one cannot "prove" that there exists an external reality or really anything at all about reality as one can mathematically. An inappropriate response would be to misrepresent scientific inquiry, mischaracterize scientific methods, and restate the kinds of problematic claims that we have been trying to eradicate from science education and popular (mis)conception for decades.

Proofs are only logical models or logical statements, often expressed mathematically as equations or formulas, with combination of variables, constants and numbers.
This is not really at all accurate. In particular, the "logical models" part is hard to understand in the context of formal/mathematical proofs.
Proof theory is itself an area of mathematics, logic, and philosophy. But in the general context of proofs one finds in the mathematics literature as well as in scientific literature (among other places), it is enough to define proofs by what they are: arguments in which the conclusions must be true granted that the premises are true. In symbolic logic, the symbols in a "proof" (or derivation) can be wholly abstract and one has in general certain axioms and/or rules that allow one to move from one line in a proof to the next. In mathematics, things are not always so strict, in that proofs are often given in a combination of sentences supplemented by mathematical symbols or formal statements when appropriate and the methods by which the conclusion follows are not typically constrained to those of an axiomatic formal language or system. Put more simply, one finds quite frequently mathematical proofs that involve the derivation of a contradiction given the negation of a statement one wishes to prove true.
But the main point is that, outside of highly specialized fields in mathematics and logic, proofs do not generally need to rely on the same degree of structure or appeals to a specified set of axioms, schemes, etc.
Rather, it should be the case that it would be possible to rewrite the proof in such a system if required, starting with e.g., ZF (with or without the axiom of choice) and spending the required pages to get to e.g., the second sentence/statement in the proof.
Thus, there are several absolutely central proofs used in quantum foundations that all go by something like "Bell's theorem" (the theorem is, strictly speaking, something that is shown to be true by the proofs). These are used by experimentalists in groundbreaking research in past years and currently. They are also used in the literature by theorists. In fact, a huge number of papers in a wide variety of journals by numerous different researchers have been published just in the past few years that both use as evidence proofs of Bell's theorem and involve proofs about the nature of reality given certain assumptions (e.g., locality or no hidden variables). One example of a slew of papers, conferences, etc., would be the renewed interest in Wigner's friend by the extended Wigner's friend particularly since ~2015.
More generally, one finds proofs all over the place in certain sciences in ways that are taken as evidence that entire classes of physical theories (for example) are true or that certain methods can be used and the results be used validly as evidence.
For example, it wasn't until the proof that certain quantum field theories of the standard model were renormalizable that it became clear quantum field theory could provide the backbone of modern particle physics (and the standard models of particle physics and cosmology, respectively). Difficulties with the not yet rigorous demonstrations of the formal validity of renormalization itself remains an outstanding problem in a slew of fields.
And that's just physics (and actually a rather small number of fields in physics).
While mathematical equations (proofs) are useful tools used in science and engineering, THEY ARE NOT EVIDENCE of anything, nor are equations superior than evidence.
They are absolutely evidence. They are in fact sometimes all the evidence we really have or can even have in principle. The relevance and nature of proofs and their centrality in the sciences ranges from the fact that 1) we must rely heavily on the assumption that certain physical properties or statistical parameters or something like these are continuous in the sense of undergrad analysis (and multivariable generalizations) and thus calculus of real numbers well-defined, but no real number can ever be measured because the universe is not large enough to represent the information required to "store" a single irrational number and we have to pretend that rational numbers (all we can ever, in principle, measure) are subsets of the reals
to
2) The standard model of particle physics is given in terms of the proofs of consistencies of the representations under the product of group SU(3) X SU(2) X U(1). In fact, the entire set of particles and particle type are defined because of these proofs and are given in terms of group-theoretical properties. Nor can any experiment be taken as evidence for the standard model particles without these proofs.

Sciences rely on evidence - the more there, the better - because the evidence test the hypothesis or theory, if it is “probable” or “improbable”. Proofs or equations don’t do that.
They do, actually. Quite frequently. In fact, the entire framework of hypothesis testing (including classical frequentist, Bayesian, likelihoodist, etc.) that is the basis for interpreting experimental results as giving evidence of anything is because of e.g., proofs that certain statistical parameters have certain statistical properties. Indeed, entire fields within the sciences are based on certain equations (information theory and computer science come to mind, in addition to physics).
More generally, one doesn't ever test a theory so simply. Scientific hypotheses and theories are not organized nor do they generally resemble their popular and textbook presentations. This why, for example, all the "evidence" for special relativity existed before Einstein derived it in 1905 (using equations), but nobody else had put it together. The Michelson-Morley experiments pre-dated Einstein's work by nearly 20 years. The Lorentz contraction already existed as did basically the entire theory (certainly all the physical, experimental evidence). It wasn't until Einstein promoted to the status of something like a mathematical axiom his two postulates and showed formally that they were consistent (and then later that Minkowski supplied the geometric picture) that it was possible to realize the luminiferous aether was unnecessary and the problem was instead with the equations governing the dynamics of motion in classical mechanics under the Galilean symmetries.

Evidence are the physical thing
Physical things are not evidence independent of theory. You cannot have some set of observations be "evidence" independently of specifying what it is evidence of in terms of the theoretical framework you are using and how, logically and formally, it follows that the observations are evidence.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I am talking about their frequent uses of the words, “proof” & “prove”.

You may be parsing the sentence wrong. Words in English can have dozens of definitions and any one of them might be intended by the author. It is the reader's job to select the meaning that allows the sentence to make sense. It is not his job to argue words and their meanings. For proof of this all you need to do is talk to people.

Many people will sense that the speaker has different beliefs than his own and then will parse sentences so they make no sense or that word meanings can be argued. Everybody makes perfect sense in terms of his premises so try to deduce those premises and argue them.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I must agree with that one at some point ,sometimes religion describe some scientifique phenomenons
Turning clay into man (Adam), isn’t science; it isn’t a natural phenomena. It is myth or fairytale.

If it was true, then humans should inherit properties of Adam, through genetics, such as clay minerals, silicates.

There are many types of silicate minerals, but the most common form of clay are kaolin clay, which more specifically, are made of phyllosilicate or sheet silicate. And kaolin clay are comprised of kaolinite mineral:

Al2Si2O5(OH)4

This is a chemical compound (above) of hydrated phyllosilicate.

The aluminum silicate (Al2Si2O5) come from mica mineral that have broken down from weathering of rock, until silicate have become finely grained, and the OH molecule is when mineral becomes hydrated with water, that give clay plastic texture when wet.

The thing is biologists have studied human body, especially the organic matters and molecular properties of the organic matters.

While a human body contained water molecule (H2O), which make up 65% of the mass (but water isn’t organic), there are no clay (kaolin) and no clay mineral (or kaolinite phyllosilicate or Al2Si2O5) in our molecular makeup.

The largest organic matters in human body are proteins, which make up about 20% of total mass, followed by lipid (or body fat) 12%.

Proteins and fats are not clay or clay minerals. Clay minerals aren’t even organic. Clay minerals cannot transform into biological cells.

Which make the Quran’s claim that man being made of “clay”, to be “UNSCIENTIFIC”.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Turning clay into man (Adam), isn’t science; it isn’t a natural phenomena. It is myth or fairytale.
It is to you because you don´t understand the numerous cultural mythical telling of creation, including the creation of humans.
You take ancient teksts literally and have no clues of how to interpret the myths. If you had, you easily could have combined the modern cosmological term of "cosmic dust" with the mythical clay-explanation.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It is to you because you don´t understand the numerous cultural mythical telling of creation, including the creation of humans.
You take ancient teksts literally and have no clues of how to interpret the myths. If you had, you easily could have combined the modern cosmological term of "cosmic dust" with the mythical clay-explanation.
Off course, with that kind of "creative freedom" in "interpretation", you can make any story say anything.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Off course, with that kind of "creative freedom" in "interpretation", you can make any story say anything.
Not at all.

You have to compare ALL cultural Stories of Creation and find the common explanations - and since these stories tell of the very factual cosmological creation of everything you can observe with your own eyes and read of in scientific cosmological theories and articles, you in fact only can get ONE STORY when you compare both ancient and modern perceptions of what is created, hence:

The biblical creation of Adam from "clay" compute logically with the modern term of "cosmic dust".

"We are all made of star dust", as you know.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Not at all.

You have to compare ALL cultural Stories of Creation and find the common explanations

Sorry, I have better things to do with my time then to dive into ALL creation myths known to mankind.
In fact, a single life time isn't even enough for that.

- and since these stories tell of the very factual cosmological creation of everything you can observe with your own eyes and read of in scientific cosmological theories and articles, you in fact only can get ONE STORY when you compare both ancient and modern perceptions of what is created, hence:

The biblical creation of Adam from "clay" compute logically with the modern term of "cosmic dust".

"We are all made of star dust", as you know.

:rolleyes:

Again, with that kind of creative freedom, you can make any story say anything.

The only way clay is stardust, is when you have a very big imagination.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Your post is a mess and I have no intention of going over every point again and again.
I suspect, as is your norm, you never went over any of it in the first place.
Suffice to say that "evidence" underlies theory is simply wrong. "Evidence" comes to be seen as only that which supports theory and things that don't support theory are invisible to the theorist. Only experiment can support or establish theory.
Except in your case - you don't do experiments, nor know of any that support your claims, so you just write fibs over and over and claim to have presented evidence. On the rare (and hilarious) occasions that you try to present support, you have failed every time since you cannot understand science, experiments, nor the nature of evidence.
"Evidence" underlies hypothesis. Each individual is supposed to look at all the physical evidence and form hypothesis thereby.
And the tests of hypotheses produce results. which is considered evidence.

No experiments from you re: choosing to grow a "broccas area" [sic], or that speciation occurs "suddenly."
 
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