The interpretation of Bahai faith regarding "son of Hasan Al-askari" is irrational.

[Link]

Salam

The hadiths state Imam Mahdi (a) is son of Hassan Al-Askari (a) in twelver sources. The Bahai faith most recent Prophet didn't dismiss these hadiths as fabricated, but said, he is a spiritual son of Hassan Al-Askari (a), even though Hassan Al-Askari (a) didn't have children aside from Imam Mahdi (a).

I am going to argue the hadiths give context to the meaning son. Believers per hadiths are born out of Imams and it can be argued they are spiritually their sons and Imams their fathers. These hadiths have a context, and the hadiths of Twelve Imams (a) naming them son after son also have a context. For example, there is a hadith of Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) being the parents of this nation.

Also from another perspective only the Imams (a) can be true sons of Mohammad (s) as many hadiths show this as well as confirmed by the concept of chosen family in the Quran. So it depends on the context, what is being said.

To mix the metaphor context with the literal context is being unfair to speech.

I will start from Misbahal Shariah:

"O Messenger of Allah, is there belief without knowing their names and lineage?"

"No, Salman."

"Messenger of Allah, where will I find them?"

"You already know al-Husayn; then there will be the master of the worshippers, 'Ali ibn Husayn (Zayn al-'Abidin); then his son Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the piercer of the knowledge of the early and the later prophets and messengers (al-Baqir); then Ja'far ibn Muhammad, the truthful tongue of Allah (al-Sadiq); then Musa ibn Ja'far, the one who kept his rage silent through patience in Allah (al-Kadhim); then 'Ali ibn Musa, pleased with the secret of Allah (al-Rida '); then Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the chosen one from the creatures of Allah (al-Mukatar); then 'Ali ibn Muhammad, the guide to Allah (al-Hadi); then al-Hasan, son of 'Ali, the silent, trustworthy guardian over the secret of Allah (al-'Askari); then mim ha' mim dal (Muhammad), called Ibn al-Hasan, the announcer who establishes the right of Allah."

My argument here is the context of lineage is literal. Before that Imams (a) were stated to be lights that glorified God 14 000 years before he created anything else. Salman was wondering because Imams (a) are light, is it good enough to just recognize them as lights or perhaps, that they will be born in the future, but their names and lineage doesn't need to be known now by believers. The Rasool (s) says no you have to know their names and lineage.

I will share more hadiths.

 

[Link]

There is the following hadith with the following chains:

Kulaini - Ali ibn Ibrahim - his father - Abdullah ibn Jundoob - Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (7th Successor) (chain 1)
As-Saduuq - Mohammad ibn Ali Majulya - Ali ibn Ibrahim - his father - Abdullah ibn Jundoob - Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (7th Successor) (chain 2)
At-Tusi -Kulaini - Ali ibn Ibrahim - his father - Abdullah ibn Jundoob - Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (chain 3)

From Ali ibn Ibrahim they are the same chain. Just thought I would note that.

Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (a) said to say in the prostration of gratitude:

God I call you to witness and call to witness your Angels, your Messengers and your Prophets and all your creation, that you are my Lord, and that Mohammad is my Prophet, and that Ali, Hassan, Hussain, Ali son of Hussain, Mohammad son of Ali, Jaffar son of Mohammad, Musa son of Jaffar, Ali son of Musa, Mohammad son of Ali, Ali son of Mohammad, Hassan son of Ali, and the proof son of Hassan son of Ali, are my leaders. Regarding them I befriend/come under guardianship/come under authority and regarding their enemies I am free from.....(the du'a goes on)

I didn't translate the rest of the Du'a, but the relevant part is that "son" is literal here, and it's not in metaphoric prose. The proof is son of Hassan son of Ali, the same way "Hassan is son of Ali", the proof is "son" of "Hassan".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One question how many direct "Son" descendants of Muhammad and Ali Hussan are there left?

Is there a family tree available of the unbroken chain of "Sons from Muhammad, and "Sons from Ali Hussan?

The Bab wore the green turban which in the Ottoman Empire, the wearing of the green turban was a privilege afforded to the descendants of Muhammad.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

One question how many direct "Son" descendants of Muhammad and Ali Hussan are there left?

Is there a family tree available of the unbroken chain of "Sons from Muhammad, and "Sons from Ali Hussan?

The Bab wore the green turban which in the Ottoman Empire, the wearing of the green turban was a privilege afforded to the descendants of Muhammad.

Regards Tony

What is the relevance to the OP?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is the relevance to the OP?

I do not know your mind, but my best guess is you are going to try to prove only literal sons must fulfil aspects of the Quran?

The OP is not yet very clear to me.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

The hadiths state Imam Mahdi (a) is son of Hassan Al-Askari (a) in twelver sources. The Bahai faith most recent Prophet didn't dismiss these hadiths as fabricated, but said, he is a spiritual son of Hassan Al-Askari (a), even though Hassan Al-Askari (a) didn't have children aside from Imam Mahdi (a).

I am going to argue the hadiths give context to the meaning son. Believers per hadiths are born out of Imams and it can be argued they are spiritually their sons and Imams their fathers. These hadiths have a context, and the hadiths of Twelve Imams (a) naming them son after son also have a context. For example, there is a hadith of Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) being the parents of this nation.

Also from another perspective only the Imams (a) can be true sons of Mohammad (s) as many hadiths show this as well as confirmed by the concept of chosen family in the Quran. So it depends on the context, what is being said.

To mix the metaphor context with the literal context is being unfair to speech.

I will start from Misbahal Shariah:





My argument here is the context of lineage is literal. Before that Imams (a) were stated to be lights that glorified God 14 000 years before he created anything else. Salman was wondering because Imams (a) are light, is it good enough to just recognize them as lights or perhaps, that they will be born in the future, but their names and lineage doesn't need to be known now by believers. The Rasool (s) says no you have to know their names and lineage.

I will share more hadiths.

Let me ask you this question. In your opinion what should we do with these Hadithes:

Hadith 1:

بحار الأنوار الجزء 51 الصفحة (137)

بهذا الاسناد, عن محمد بن مسعود, عن نصر بن الصباح, عن جعفر ابن سهل, عن أبي عبدالله أخي عبد الله الكابلي, عن القابوسي, عن نضر بن السندي, عن الخليل بن عمرو, عن علي بن الحسين الفزاري, عن إبراهيم بن عطية, عن ام هانئ الثقفية قال : غدوت على سيدي محمد بن علي الباقر عليه السلام فقلت له : ياسيدي آية في كتاب الله عزوجل عرضت بقلبي أقلقتني وأسهرتني قال : فاسئلي يا ام هانئ ؟ قالت قلت : قول الله عزوجل (( فَلَا أُقسِمُ بِالخُنَّسِ * الجَوَارِ الكُنَّسِ )) قال : نعم المسألة سألتني يا ام هانئ هذا مولود في آخر الزمان هو المهدي من هذه العترة تكون له حيرة وغيبة يضل فيها أقوام ويهتدي فيها أقوام فيا طوبى لك إن أدركته .

Brief translation: Am Hani asks Imam Baghir about a verse of Quran (So I swear by the retreating stars), and Imam Baghir replied that, it is about the Mahdi, who will be born in the Last Days (Akharu Zamaan).


Hadith 2:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Ali ibn Ibrahim his father all from ibn Mahbub from al-Ri’ab from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following:

"Allah sent revelation to ‘Imran saying, "I will grant you a perfect and holy son who would cure the blind and the lepers and bring the dead back to life by Allah, the permission of Allah and I make him a messenger to the israelites." ‘Imran than told it to his wife, Hanna, mother of Mary all about it When she conceive with the baby Mary and she thought to herself that the baby will be a boy. When she give birth to Mary she said, "Lord, I have given birth to a girl and boys are not like girls. A girl can not be a messenger. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, has said, "Allah knows to who have you given birth. When Allah, the Most High, granted Jesus to Mary he was the boy promised to ‘Imran. He promised Jesus to ‘Imran. When we would say something about a man from us and that thing would be fount in his sons or grand sons then you must not deny it."

Hadith 3:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحَسَنِ الْبَرَاثِيُّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو عَلِيٍّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي يَعْقُوبُ بْنُ يَزِيدَ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ إِلَّا مَا رُوِيَتْ لَكَ وَ لَكِنْ حَدَّثَنِي ابْنُ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ رَجُلٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا قَالَ:، قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا (ع) جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَوْمٌ قَدْ وَقَفُوا عَلَى أَبِيكَ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُ لَمْ يَمُتْ، قَالَ، قَالَ: كَذَبُوا وَ هُمْ كُفَّارٌ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ (ص)، وَ لَوْ كَانَ اللَّهُ يَمُدُّ فِي أَجَلِ أَحَدٍ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ لِحَاجَةِ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْهِ لَمَدَّ اللَّهُ فِي أَجَلِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ (ص).

إختيار معرفة الرجال المعروف بـ رجال الكشي - الشيخ الطوسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

Brief translation:

In the Book Rijal Alkeshi, it is recorded that Imam Reza said, “…if God would lengthen the lifespan of anyone among mankind, due to the needs of the people, God would have lengthen the life of Muhammad, the Messenger of God.


Hadith 4:

According to this Hadith, the Qaim is just supposed to come from the lineage of Fatima and Hussain:

من قول النبي عليه السلام: المهدي من عترتي من ولد فاطمة.

ومن كتاب الفتن مرفوعا إلى
ومنه عن علي عليه السلام: سمى النبي صلى الله عليه وآله الحسين سيدا وسيخرج الله من صلبه رجلا اسمه اسم نبيكم يملأ الأرض عدلا كما ملئت جورا. وعن عبد الله ابن عمر يخرج رجل من ولد الحسين من قبل المشرق​

According to this Hadith, Qaim, will be from lineage of Imam Hussein, and will be born somewhere from the direction of East.
Direction of east can be interpreted as Iran, since Iran was East of Arabia Land. So, according to this Hadith, the place of Birth of Qaim, is East of Arabi, and from the Lineage of Imam Hussein.


So, do you see that, if we accept the above Hadithes as true, then, the Qaim would not be literally Son of the 11th Imam?
What should we do? How do you know what the truth is?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is the following hadith with the following chains:

Kulaini - Ali ibn Ibrahim - his father - Abdullah ibn Jundoob - Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (7th Successor) (chain 1)
As-Saduuq - Mohammad ibn Ali Majulya - Ali ibn Ibrahim - his father - Abdullah ibn Jundoob - Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (7th Successor) (chain 2)
At-Tusi -Kulaini - Ali ibn Ibrahim - his father - Abdullah ibn Jundoob - Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (chain 3)

From Ali ibn Ibrahim they are the same chain. Just thought I would note that.

Imam Musa Al-Kadhim (a) said to say in the prostration of gratitude:

God I call you to witness and call to witness your Angels, your Messengers and your Prophets and all your creation, that you are my Lord, and that Mohammad is my Prophet, and that Ali, Hassan, Hussain, Ali son of Hussain, Mohammad son of Ali, Jaffar son of Mohammad, Musa son of Jaffar, Ali son of Musa, Mohammad son of Ali, Ali son of Mohammad, Hassan son of Ali, and the proof son of Hassan son of Ali, are my leaders. Regarding them I befriend/come under guardianship/come under authority and regarding their enemies I am free from.....(the du'a goes on)

I didn't translate the rest of the Du'a, but the relevant part is that "son" is literal here, and it's not in metaphoric prose. The proof is son of Hassan son of Ali, the same way "Hassan is son of Ali", the proof is "son" of "Hassan".

Ok, I agree, that it appears in some Hadithes the Son is literal.

But what should we do with these Hadithes:

Hadith 1:

We were with Imam al-Jawad (AS) when the issue of Sufyani was brought up and the traditions which state that his advent is of the definite matters. I said to Imam al-Jawad (AS), "Does Allah make bada’ in the definite matters?" He (AS) replied, "Yes." I said, "Then, we have a fear that Allah makes bada’ in (the rising of) al-Qa'im." The Imam replied, "al-Qa'im is of the Promises, and Allah does not break His Promises (referring to verses 3:9 and 13:31)."[34][35]

[35]Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.250, Hadith 138
So, according to this Hadith, even if it was definitely said, Qaim is literally the Son of 11th Imam, it can still become Bada.


Hadith 2:

I asked Imam al-Baqir (AS) about this matter (i.e., the rising of al-Mahdi (AS)). He (AS) replied, "Because you expect that it comes to you in a (certain) way, do not deny it (if it happens in another way)."[32][40]

So, according to this Hdith, even if based on other Hadithes, we expect, that, He be the literal son of the 11th Imam, but God decides to change that plan, we must not deny the possibility.


So, what should we do with these Hadithes?
Do you think we should just ignore them, and assume, they are fake Hadithes?
Why? Just having a fair conversation here.

 

[Link]

So, do you see that, if we accept the above Hadithes as true, then, the Qaim would not be literally Son of the 11th Imam?
What should we do? How do you know what the truth is?

Well your Prophet accepted the hadiths that say Mahdi is son of Hassan Al-Askari. So we are looking at if his interpretation makes sense. I'm saying the hadiths, their context, in this regard, is that the lineage is literal. The meaning of son is given context by what is meant by the previous mention in the hadiths.

 

[Link]

Ok, I agree, that it appears in some Hadithes the Son is literal.

But what should we do with these Hadithes:

Hadith 1:

We were with Imam al-Jawad (AS) when the issue of Sufyani was brought up and the traditions which state that his advent is of the definite matters. I said to Imam al-Jawad (AS), "Does Allah make bada’ in the definite matters?" He (AS) replied, "Yes." I said, "Then, we have a fear that Allah makes bada’ in (the rising of) al-Qa'im." The Imam replied, "al-Qa'im is of the Promises, and Allah does not break His Promises (referring to verses 3:9 and 13:31)."[34][35]

[35]Bihar al-Anwar, vol.52, p.250, Hadith 138
So, according to this Hadith, even if it was definitely said, Qaim is literally the Son of 11th Imam, it can still become Bada.


Hadith 2:

I asked Imam al-Baqir (AS) about this matter (i.e., the rising of al-Mahdi (AS)). He (AS) replied, "Because you expect that it comes to you in a (certain) way, do not deny it (if it happens in another way)."[32][40]

So, according to this Hdith, even if based on other Hadithes, we expect, that, He be the literal son of the 11th Imam, but God decides to change that plan, we must not deny the possibility.


So, what should we do with these Hadithes?
Do you think we should just ignore them, and assume, they are fake Hadithes?
Why? Just having a fair conversation here.

These hadiths have nothing to do with the topic. If he is son of Hassan Al-Askari, yes, he may come in some ways we don't expect and some prophecies are conditional regarding him so again it's irrelevant.

 

[Link]

I do not know your mind, but my best guess is you are going to try to prove only literal sons must fulfil aspects of the Quran?

The OP is not yet very clear to me.

Regards Tony

I'm saying Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a) had a literal son per hadiths and Baha'allah interpretation of these hadiths that he is a metaphoric son of Hassan Al-Askari (a) does not make sense. Because when you look at these hadiths, they are describing son and lineage in literal terms. So your Prophet is decontextualizing the expression from it's proper place.

 

[Link]

On page 22 of the following book: أربعون حديثا معتبرا في النص على الأئمة الاثني عشر بأسمائهم

There is six chains, and then on page 24 it says:

"And he will create from the loin of Hussain a son who He named him Ali lowly towards God humble, then from his loin will emerge his son who is named Mohammad..."

The hadith goes on to describe the Imams one by one, then:

"...then he emerge from his loin his son and he named him Hassan a believer in God a guide towards God, and then will emerge from his loin, the word of truth, the truthful tongue, the bringer out of truth, God's proof on his creation, he has prolonged hiddenness, God will manifest through him Islam and it's people and he will annul disbelief and it's people."

Again, the context of the hadith is clear. This one even more so by the emphasis that will emerge from the loin wording.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well your Prophet accepted the hadiths that say Mahdi is son of Hassan Al-Askari. So we are looking at if his interpretation makes sense.

Baha'u'llah did not quote all such Hadithes. I don't know where you come up with that.
He said, it is true that, They have said, the Qaim is Imam Askari's Son, but that has a spiritual significance.

I'm saying the hadiths, their context, in this regard, is that the lineage is literal.

This is how you choose to see it, because it fits to what you want them to say.

Explain how Mary, mother of Jesus is sister of Aaron who lived more than a thousand years before her.
here you would say, it is spiritual sister, but, show me how from context you can know.

The meaning of son is given context by what is meant by the previous mention in the hadiths.

Not necessarily.

Imam Sadigh has said, every word we say, we mean 71 meanings by it, Only we can tell you what we mean in every case.
You have not read these Hadithes maybe.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

These hadiths have nothing to do with the topic.

How so?
if you want to debate, quote each Hadith I referred and show why it does not have to do with OP.

If he is son of Hassan Al-Askari, yes, he may come in some ways we don't expect and some prophecies are conditional regarding him so again it's irrelevant.

Nope.. at the time when Imam Baghir or Sadiq was saying Hsdithes about Bada, even Imam Askari was not born yet, let alone the Qaim. So, all, that Muhammad had said about the 11th Imam having a Son, can be altered according to Bada.

 

[Link]

Baha'u'llah did not quote all such Hadithes. I don't know where you come up with that.
He said, it is true that, They have said, the Qaim is Imam Askari's Son, but that has a spiritual significance.

You have tendency to not see context of words. He was talking about the hadiths that claim Hassan Al-askari (a) as father and tried to explain that he can be metaphorically his sons. I'm saying if you look at these hadiths there is no room for that interpretation.

 

[Link]

Nope.. at the time when Imam Baghir or Sadiq was saying Hsdithes about Bada, even Imam Askari was not born yet, let alone the Qaim. So, all, that Muhammad had said about the 11th Imam having a Son, can be altered according to Bada.

To me Bada doesn't mean promises are altered. It means some promises are conditional even if definitive. For example, the Quran says not a city but will be destroyed before day of judgment. That means when Imam Mahdi (a) comes if certain conditions happen, they will be destroyed. However, those conditions are not set to happen. So it's definitive promises, but they won't necessarily happen.

I don't believe God lies in his promises. And Rasool (s) naming Twelve Imams he told Salman, it's not good enough to just know there will be twelve Imams, but you have to know their lineage and names. And Imam Mahdi (a) is son of Hassan Al-Askari (a).

 

[shunyadragon]

What is the relevance to the OP?

From the objective perspective of documented claims of literal Messianic lineage is extremely questionable, as well as the provenance of their scriptures. for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I consider the importance of the spiritual evolution of humanity in the universal context of the relationship of all of humanity far more vast then the claims of any one religion.

The Baha'i Faith is only religion in the Abrahamic religions that has objectively documented provenance of the authorship of the scriptures.

I consider the succession of the Manifestations of God over the millennia to a spiritual universal evolution of humanity. An attempt to objectively justify the succession lineage of the Messiahs fails completely, especially when you consider ancient claims of religions without provenance.

If God isa universal compassionate omnipresent, omnipotent God how could any one of the ancient religions be the only one true religion?

 

[Link]

From the objective perspective of documented claims of literal Messianic lineage is extremely questionable

Whether it is or not, your Prophet didn't dismiss these hadiths but sought to explain it in a metaphoric way. I'm saying when reading the hadiths themselves, it's obvious it's not metaphoric.

 

[shunyadragon]

Whether it is or not, your Prophet didn't dismiss these hadiths but sought to explain it in a metaphoric way. I'm saying when reading the hadiths themselves, it's obvious it's not metaphoric.

I did not consider them metaphors or not, Based on that actual history of all the ancient religions including Islam lack provenance for the succession of of prophets, messiah, Hadiths, and a total lack of provenance of the texts, Any further assumptions have to based on factual history and lack of provenance,

 

[Link]

I did not consider them metaphors or not, Based on that actual history of all the ancient religions including Islam lack provenance for the succession of of prophets, messiah, Hadiths, and a total lack of provenance of the texts, Any further assumptions have to based on factual history and lack of provenance,

Okay. It's irrelevant to the OP.

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay. It's irrelevant to the OP.

Very relevant, because your claim as well as for any succession of religious authority is without objective evidence or consistent provenance of scripture and history.

It is a fact there is a wide conflicting diverse interpretations in Islam concerning the the hadiths. Your view is one among many in Islam. The Hadiths are a traditional belief of the succession of guidance in Islam, and NOT a well documented universally recognized guidance in Islam,

Hadith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some Muslims believe that Islamic guidance should be based on the Quran only, thus rejecting the authority of hadith; some further claim that most hadiths are fabrications (pseudepigrapha) created in the 8th and 9th centuries AD, and which are falsely attributed to Muhammad.

The reality of the validity of the Baha'i claim does not rest on a traditional interpretation of the hadiths.