The JW's claim Jesus was not son of Adam.

LightofTruth · Sep 1, 2019

Eve was made from Adam and was therefore of the same flesh as Adam. The text tells us that Eve knew the tree was forbidden but it also tells us that she desired it anyway.
Now, to desire something that God forbids is to covet. And the word DESIRE there in the text means to covet.
The desire that Eve had for the tree shows that her flesh was sinful!

There is no other kind of flesh of natural man but sinful flesh!

Faithofchristian · Sep 1, 2019

Seeing that JW's hasn't a clue or idea about Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is the son of God and the son of Adam of flesh and blood.
This is why Jesus Christ was without sin. Because Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And God himself of flesh and blood.

sealchan · Sep 1, 2019

LightofTruth said:
The JW's claim that Jesus was not a son of Adam.

Here's the quote from another thread:

"Jesus was "the son of God"...NOT the son of Adam. Had he been a son of Adam, then he would not have been sinless. The ransom required the payment of an equivalent life....no son of Adam could offer the needed payment....a perfect life for a perfect life." --Jehovah Witness

What do you think?

I'd like to keep this debate within the context of the Scriptures

I've been gradually watching a shorter version of a series of lectures by Bart Ehrman where he shows how the understanding of the relationship of an individual to God had multiple forms and that the divinity of Jesus in early Christianity evolved into the current predominant trinitarian belief.

First there was Paul who initially believed that Jesus was made divine at the resurrection. Then through the evolution of the gospels there was the belief that Jesus was made divine at his baptism. Later it became his birth that granted his divine status. Finally Jesus was understood to be divine from the beginning and was an instantiation of God Himself.

It seems that a literary analysis of the New Testament and other sources can help to reveal the development of the understanding of how people understood Jesus.

Deeje · Sep 1, 2019

LightofTruth said:
Can you at least admit that the flesh of man is sinful?

Read my replies......of course our flesh is sinful...that is the whole point. Jesus did not have sinful flesh.....he was perfect like Adam was when God first created him. The choices they made in Eden introduced sin, which is what causes death.

Am I getting through?

LightofTruth said:
Eve was made from Adam and was therefore of the same flesh as Adam. The text tells us that Eve knew the tree was forbidden but it also tells us that she desired it anyway.
Now, to desire something that God forbids is to covet. And the word DESIRE there in the text means to covet.
The desire that Eve had for the tree shows that her flesh was sinful!

There is no other kind of flesh of natural man but sinful flesh!

You don't understand what free will is, do you? It means that we have choices. Angels have free will too, which is why a perfect angel could tempt perfect humans and influence them to disobey their God. He went on to sway a third of the angels to join him in opposition to the Creator. (James 1:13-15)

You are assuming that sin was in humans when they were created. Why would God create us in his image if we were born defective? Adam was created perfect, but lost his perfection and introduced sin and death into the human race. God does not make junk! Do you have no knowledge of the fall?

When Jesus was tempted by satan, here was an opportunity to gain another big notch on his belt.
Imperfect, sin-laden humans are usually a push-over for him, but he had already managed to get two perfect humans to sin and Jesus would have been quite a victory for him as The Son of God in human form...the second most powerful personage in existence.
But Jesus chose to obey his Father, proving that Adam and his wife had no excuse for the choices they made. His choice to remain obedient is what saved other obedient ones.

I am hoping that the penny will drop eventually....

Deeje · Sep 1, 2019

sealchan said:
I've been gradually watching a shorter version of a series of lectures by Bart Ehrman where he shows how the understanding of the relationship of an individual to God had multiple forms and that the divinity of Jesus in early Christianity evolved into the current predominant trinitarian belief.

The divinity of Christ is probably the most distorted doctrine ever created by the "church".
Jesus was a divine being from his creation, but his status as "the son of God" never changed, even though he changed form from a spirit, to a human, and back to a spirit again. Never do the scriptures state that Jesus is, or ever was, Almighty God.

First there was Paul who initially believed that Jesus was made divine at the resurrection. Then through the evolution of the gospels there was the belief that Jesus was made divine at his baptism. Later it became his birth that granted his divine status. Finally Jesus was understood to be divine from the beginning and was an instantiation of God Himself.

Gradualism is the vehicle of many untruths. Start small and add, ever so gradually to a concept, and in time you can make black seem white and vice versa. In this case, "the son of God" was transformed into "God the Son"...a title that is found nowhere in scripture.

It seems that a literary analysis of the New Testament and other sources can help to reveal the development of the understanding of how people understood Jesus.

And how easily they were led into apostasy.....which was foretold by Jesus and his apostles to take place. It was snapping at the heels of the apostles even back then. Christendom pretends that it never happened, but it began back in the first century and has had almost 2,000 years to deviate almost completely from what Jesus taught. Christendom did exactly what Judaism did....and with the same result. Human traditions replaced the word of God....and the final product was nothing like the original.

LightofTruth · Sep 1, 2019

Deeje said:
Read my replies......of course our flesh is sinful...that is the whole point. Jesus did not have sinful flesh.....he was perfect like Adam was when God first created him. The choices they made in Eden introduced sin, which is what causes death.

Am I getting through?

You don't understand what free will is, do you? It means that we have choices. Angels have free will too, which is why a perfect angel could tempt perfect humans and influence them to disobey their God. He went on to sway a third of the angels to join him in opposition to the Creator. (James 1:13-15)

You are assuming that sin was in humans when they were created. Why would God create us in his image if we were born defective? Adam was created perfect, but lost his perfection and introduced sin and death into the human race. God does not make junk! Do you have no knowledge of the fall?

When Jesus was tempted by satan, here was an opportunity to gain another big notch on his belt.
Imperfect, sin-laden humans are usually a push-over for him, but he had already managed to get two perfect humans to sin and Jesus would have been quite a victory for him as The Son of God in human form...the second most powerful personage in existence.
But Jesus chose to obey his Father, proving that Adam and his wife had no excuse for the choices they made. His choice to remain obedient is what saved other obedient ones.

I am hoping that the penny will drop eventually....

Consider yourself EXPOSED. Anyone who denies Jesus was a son of Adam is a moron!

LightofTruth · Sep 1, 2019

Deeje said:
The divinity of Christ is probably the most distorted doctrine ever created by the "church".
Jesus was a divine being from his creation, but his status as "the son of God" never changed, even though he changed form from a spirit, to a human, and back to a spirit again. Never do the scriptures state that Jesus is, or ever was, Almighty God.

Gradualism is the vehicle of many untruths. Start small and add, ever so gradually to a concept, and in time you can make black seem white and vice versa. In this case, "the son of God" was transformed into "God the Son"...a title that is found nowhere in scripture.

And how easily they were led into apostasy.....which was foretold by Jesus and his apostles to take place. It was snapping at the heels of the apostles even back then. Christendom pretends that it never happened, but it began back in the first century and has had almost 2,000 years to deviate almost completely from what Jesus taught. Christendom did exactly what Judaism did....and with the same result. Human traditions replaced the word of God....and the final product was nothing like the original.

You're lost from the start!

moorea944 · Sep 1, 2019

LightofTruth said:
My question is in reference to the nature of man. I understand Jesus was sinless in that he personally committed no sin. However, there is what the Scripture calls "Sinful flesh" or "sin in the flesh" as dwelling in man. And it also tells us that the desires of the flesh are what gives birth to personally committing sin which is transgression of the law of God.
So, if the natural flesh and blood man all have this same flesh how is that Jesus did not if the Scripture says he did?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Wow, great post!! I love Heb 2! One of many verses that tells us that Jesus was like us. He had to be. Even in the OT, everyone was told that the "coming" Messiah was going to be like us. He had to be. He had to "overcome" sin.

But how? How can a man not sin? Most people would say because he is God.... Bible never says that. It says that God was "working through his son"..... God, Jesus's father and God, was working through his son all of his life. For a reason.... Not only that, the angels were with him too. NT tells us that Jesus was in God's mind and plans in the beginning. God created the world with his son in mind. Very simple language to understand. Why was God working through his son? 2 Cor 5 tells us the answer... "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,"

God was in Christ to bring mankind back to God. Jesus also states that he came in the Father's name and can do nothing without the father. That's a God? No, it's a man who's father is helping him....

Jesus was flesh and blood. Like us. Mary was his mother and God was his father right back to Adam. The coming Messiah had to be like us. Same nature.

LightofTruth · Sep 2, 2019

moorea944 said:
Wow, great post!! I love Heb 2! One of many verses that tells us that Jesus was like us. He had to be. Even in the OT, everyone was told that the "coming" Messiah was going to be like us. He had to be. He had to "overcome" sin.

But how? How can a man not sin? Most people would say because he is God.... Bible never says that. It says that God was "working through his son"..... God, Jesus's father and God, was working through his son all of his life. For a reason.... Not only that, the angels were with him too. NT tells us that Jesus was in God's mind and plans in the beginning. God created the world with his son in mind. Very simple language to understand. Why was God working through his son? 2 Cor 5 tells us the answer... "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,"

God was in Christ to bring mankind back to God. Jesus also states that he came in the Father's name and can do nothing without the father. That's a God? No, it's a man who's father is helping him....

Jesus was flesh and blood. Like us. Mary was his mother and God was his father right back to Adam. The coming Messiah had to be like us. Same nature.

Yep.

That's why Paul tells us that God condemned the sinful flesh nature by the sacrifice of His son.

Jesus himself said that as Moses lifted up the serpent so must he be lifted up. That's because the serpent represents the lust of the flesh through which sin and death came into the world...through one man Adam.

LightofTruth · Sep 2, 2019

moorea944 said:
Wow, great post!! I love Heb 2! One of many verses that tells us that Jesus was like us. He had to be. Even in the OT, everyone was told that the "coming" Messiah was going to be like us. He had to be. He had to "overcome" sin.

But how? How can a man not sin? Most people would say because he is God.... Bible never says that. It says that God was "working through his son"..... God, Jesus's father and God, was working through his son all of his life. For a reason.... Not only that, the angels were with him too. NT tells us that Jesus was in God's mind and plans in the beginning. God created the world with his son in mind. Very simple language to understand. Why was God working through his son? 2 Cor 5 tells us the answer... "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,"

God was in Christ to bring mankind back to God. Jesus also states that he came in the Father's name and can do nothing without the father. That's a God? No, it's a man who's father is helping him....

Jesus was flesh and blood. Like us. Mary was his mother and God was his father right back to Adam. The coming Messiah had to be like us. Same nature.

John says that anyone who would deny Jesus had come in the flesh is an anti-Christ. And since there is only one kind of flesh of man (sinful flesh) it would be anti-Christ to claim that Jesus had not come in that same flesh.

And you are correct. Hebrews 2:14 tells us that Jesus was a partaker of the same flesh and blood as the rest of the children of God.

What the anti-Christ seeks to do is to change Jesus' nature when he was born of Mary. so that he would not be like his brethren children.

The RCC invented a doctrine they call "The immaculate conception"......Anti-Christ!

And the JW's claim that Adam's flesh was different then all his children....Anti-Christ!

URAVIP2ME · Sep 2, 2019

LightofTruth said:
The JW's claim that Jesus was not a son of Adam....

Wrong. I find JW's do claim Jesus is the genealogical son of Adam according to Luke 3:38
This is in harmony from the old Jewish temple records as found starting at 1 Chronicles 1:1

Instead of going to another source, JW's website is found at www.jw.org and www.jwbroadcasting

Cooky · Sep 2, 2019

Deeje said:
Are you serious? No son of Adam can be sinless. All of Adam's offspring inherited sin. (Romans 5:12)

Hebrews 4:14-15...
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin."

Hebrews 7:26....
"For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens."

1 Peter 2:22...
"He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth."

Luke 3:23...
"When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli...."

Jesus was not the son of Joseph and he was born through Mary but was not genetically related to either of them, otherwise he could not have been born "sinless"...the exact equivalent of Adam. The DNA of the human race was now defective...every single human born from Adam was sentenced to death in their genetics. Nothing can stop humans from dying except the ransom provided by God in the human we call Jesus Christ who came from heaven to be born as a human child on earth. As a perfect man, Jesus would never have aged or died of natural causes. He died because he was murdered.

All that is required to be Jewish to Jews is to be born of a Jewish mother....Jesus was.

It won't matter how I explain it...if you have your mind made up....

Now you can show me from scripture that Jesus WAS a "son of Adam"....

But didn't Jesus come out of Mary's stomach?

URAVIP2ME · Sep 2, 2019

Faithofchristian said:
...................And God himself of flesh and blood.

Please post what Scripture says God Himself of flesh and blood.
I find pre-human Jesus was in the beginning, but Not 'before' the beginning.... Revelation 3:14 B
Only God was ' before ' the beginning according to Scripture at Psalms 90:2.
So, pre-human Jesus, whom his God sent to Earth for us, was Not 'before' the beginning as his God was.
Even the 'resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus' still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12, 21

Cooky · Sep 2, 2019

Maybe Jesus didn't have an umbilical cord. And no belly button.

URAVIP2ME · Sep 2, 2019

Landon Caeli said:
But didn't Jesus come out of Mary's stomach?

I find it is Not the human imperfect mother's ' stomach ' but who was the Father___________
Unlike the rest of us, Jesus did Not have an imperfect human father.

Think about this:
In Scripture, Eve sinned first, and what if Adam had chosen Not to sin.
Adam's perfection would have then been passed down to their children (us).
Because Adam chose to sin is why Adam (Not Adam and Eve) is blamed for our problem - Romans 5:14
In other words, ' death ' did Not start with disobedient Eve, but with Adam's deliberate disobedience.

sooda · Sep 2, 2019

LightofTruth said:
Consider yourself EXPOSED. Anyone who denies Jesus was a son of Adam is a moron!

Stop.. There's no need to torture scripture. JW didn't exist until 1870 so it new.

Cooky · Sep 2, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
I find it is Not the human imperfect mother's ' stomach ' but who was the Father___________
Unlike the rest of us, Jesus did Not have an imperfect human father.

Think about this:
In Scripture, Eve sinned first, and what if Adam had chosen Not to sin.
Adam's perfection would have then been passed down to their children (us).
Because Adam chose to sin is why Adam (Not Adam and Eve) is blamed for our problem - Romans 5:14
In other words, ' death ' did Not start with disobedient Eve, but with Adam's deliberate disobedience.

That doesn't really add up.

URAVIP2ME · Sep 2, 2019

LightofTruth said:
Eve was made from Adam and was therefore of the same flesh as Adam. The text tells us that Eve knew the tree was forbidden but it also tells us that she desired it anyway.
Now, to desire something that God forbids is to covet. And the word DESIRE there in the text means to covet.
The desire that Eve had for the tree shows that her flesh was sinful!
There is no other kind of flesh of natural man but sinful flesh!

What I find is God created was Not sinful flesh but ' very good ' according to Genesis.
Satan influenced sinless Eve that is why sinless Eve became deceived according to 1 Timothy 2:14.
Not Eve herself, but Satan beguiled Eve.... according to 2 Corinthians 11:3,14
Eve's wrong desire was thus introduced to Eve by disguised enemy Satan as that ' snake in the grass' Serpent.

URAVIP2ME · Sep 2, 2019

Landon Caeli said:
That doesn't really add up.

'That doesn't really add up' because ___________________________________________________

Cooky · Sep 2, 2019

URAVIP2ME said:
'That doesn't really add up' because ___________________________________________________

Because it doesn't matter who sinned first or second. Both Adam and Eve sinned. Period.

The JW's claim Jesus was not son of Adam.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Avid Bible Student

Avid Bible Student

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member