The lady of heaven movie and Sunni protests

[Rival]

When I pointed out that there have been bans and protests by Christians against productions they consider blasphemous, you relied "Not in my country, not in my lifetime." There have been. Both. So no "double standards".
I never claimed that it was as common or as vociferous as those by outraged Muslims in recent times.

You initially claimed double standards for Muslims and Christians. But here you are claiming that no such double standards exist in the US.

Many specialist interest groups unjustifiably claim outrage and demand special treatment in the face of reasonable criticism or comment. I see no need to make distinctions.

I wasn't talking about the US, hence why I said 'not in my country.' You pointed out a protest that happened and I didn't dispute it.

But do you see Christians cutting off heads? Defecating in Mosques? Taking to the streets whenever someone insults Jesus? This is common in Europe with Muslims for immigrant backgrounds with Churches and Muhammad. It happens so often now we just roll our eyes at it. The odd Christian protest is lacklustre and news-worthy compared to this. The on the ground reality is that Muslims in Europe tend to be far thinner skinned about these kinds of things, as far as the data seems to show, than Christians. The immigrant Muslims do not have the same culture as we have and are not used to their religion being mocked. For some reason US Christians tend to be more feisty and I can only put this down to their fundamentalism. There are no double standards, this is what one observes. European Christians think US Christians are mental, and many Muslims in Europe don't seem to know how to face satire or criticism of their religion.

 

[KWED]

But do you see Christians cutting off heads? Defecating in Mosques? Taking to the streets whenever someone insults Jesus? This is common in Europe with Muslims for immigrant backgrounds with Churches and Muhammad. It happens so often now we just roll our eyes at it. The odd Christian protest is lacklustre and news-worthy compared to this. The on the ground reality is that Muslims in Europe tend to be far thinner skinned about these kinds of things, as far as the data seems to show, than Christians. The immigrant Muslims do not have the same culture as we have and are not used to their religion being mocked. For some reason US Christians tend to be more feisty and I can only put this down to their fundamentalism. There are no double standards, this is what one observes. European Christians think US Christians are mental, and many Muslims in Europe don't seem to know how to face satire or criticism of their religion.

TBH, I have not seen or heard of Muslims cutting off heads in the UK recently (if ever) - and I am one of the most vociferous critics of Islam you will find, so I am not looking to defend it.
Also not sure why you keep referring to immigrants. Some of the Islamist attacks in the UK have been carried out by British nationals, sometimes of several generations. They also seem to be in attendance and even leading protests. Do you have another agenda here?

 

[Rival]

TBH, I have not seen or heard of Muslims cutting off heads in the UK recently (if ever) - and I am one of the most vociferous critics of Islam you will find, so I am not looking to defend it.
Also not sure why you keep referring to immigrants. Some of the Islamist attacks in the UK have been carried out by British nationals, sometimes of several generations. They also seem to be in attendance and even leading protests. Do you have another agenda here?

For goodness' sake.

Yes, but those British nationals are sons and daughters of immigrants generally who want to retain what they feel is their identity, their Muslim identity; many identify as Muslim first and British second. I also said in 'Europe' specifically. Unless you have not read these reports. Most attacks seem to be carried out by immigrants from Muslim countries or their children. This is one of the primary reasons Europeans are bothered about immigration at all. My agenda, if I have one, is to stop those with an incompatible worldview from wrecking European civilisation.

 

[stevecanuck]

Err. You don't know arabic but try to teach others truly pathetically. I just went to that link you gave. It's just a paragraph or two about trilateral roots. Mate, that doesn't there are as I said quad literal roots. You are embarrassing yourself badly. Anyway let me give you a quick lesson. Arabic roots are called Masdhar. Three letter roots are called Sulaasi. Four letter roots are called Arbaath. Learn something.

Anyway, since you have no clue you ignored the question I asked. Maybe you can do a little bit of studying your internet links and come back if you can.

Tell me.

1. What is the root word for Islam and what does it mean?
2. You have cut and pasted the root letters above right? Salama. What does Salama mean in it's root?

If you don't know I will tell you.

Thanks.

Are seem, lam, meem the root for Islam or not? That is my only claim regarding that. The rest is a straw giant.

And that claim was made in support of my previous claim that some Muslims say Islam means peace. This is truly one of your greatest deflections, but it won't work.

Please now continue with your strawman on your own.

 

[firedragon]

Are seem, lam, meem the root for Islam or not?

Its not seem. Its "seen". And yes. Obviously I have said that above. So it's strange you are asking again. Maybe you don't know the answer to my question. I asked "root word" later. Not "root letters". Im sure you know English so you can distinguish the difference.

And that claim was made in support of my previous claim that some Muslims say Islam means peace. This is truly one of your greatest deflections, but it won't work.

I know you don't know anything about what you are talking about but some hearsay. That's why I asked you these questions. Try again. Since you don't know, just tell the truth that you don't know.

Tell me.

1. What is the root word for Islam and what does it mean?
2. You have cut and pasted the root letters above right? Salama. What does Salama mean in it's root?

If you don't know I will tell you.

 

[stevecanuck]

Its not seem. Its "seen". And yes. Obviously I have said that above. So it's strange you are asking again. Maybe you don't know the answer to my question. I asked "root word" later. Not "root letters". Im sure you know English so you can distinguish the difference.



I know you don't know anything about what you are talking about but some hearsay. That's why I asked you these questions. Try again. Since you don't know, just tell the truth that you don't know.

Tell me.

1. What is the root word for Islam and what does it mean?
2. You have cut and pasted the root letters above right? Salama. What does Salama mean in it's root?

If you don't know I will tell you.

Again, not playing. However, if you want to increase my knowledge of Arabic, please go ahead. Give me the lesson and tell me what the root word is. (btw, 'seem' was a typo, but I'm sure you guessed that).

And now, back to my original statement from which you launched your latest deflection. Do some Muslims lie and say that Islam means peace or not?

 

[firedragon]

Again, not playing.

So you don't know.

if you want to increase my knowledge of Arabic, please go ahead. Give me the lesson and tell me what the root word is. (btw, 'seem' was a typo, but I'm sure you guessed that).

Excellent.

The root word is Salima. Basically means "peace". It could mean became safe, secure, achieved peace of mind, free, free from blemish, attained freedom. So it's "peace".

Do some Muslims lie and say that Islam means peace or not?

That's not what you claimed. Your claim was the some Muslims "lie" saying Islam means peace. They are not lying. You are ignorant. You just want to spread falsehood with such ignorance.

Since you asked for a lesson, the word for "submission" alone is "Hudhoo". Or Rudhooh.

The word Thasleem from the same root Salama means to hand over, with no question, which is derived as "submission" in the grammar of Mansoob which is an action. Thus, that is how the word Islam means "submission" in the grammatical Marfoo. Islam means Peace and it means Submission in the sense I explained. You cannot divorce both like you claimed calling people liars.

But of course this does not help your bogus claim that "Muslims lie" since your level of knowledge is lower than the lowest with a pseudo scholar acting of the highest grade, you will just say something bogus again and shrug it off.

It's alright. At least people with some character somewhere will read.

 

[firedragon]

For goodness' sake.

Yes, but those British nationals are sons and daughters of immigrants generally who want to retain what they feel is their identity, their Muslim identity; many identify as Muslim first and British second. I also said in 'Europe' specifically. Unless you have not read these reports. Most attacks seem to be carried out by immigrants from Muslim countries or their children. This is one of the primary reasons Europeans are bothered about immigration at all. My agenda, if I have one, is to stop those with an incompatible worldview from wrecking European civilisation.

You really think that Europeans are so bothered about immigration purely because of attacks by Muslims? That's it?

Are they bothered about attacks by others?

Thus, even this thread has turned into an Islam and Muslim prototyping exercise.

Take a good look at numbers prior to making this kind of claim Rival.

How many attacks have been done by

• the Right Wing?
• Leftwing and anarchists?
• Ethno nationalists and separatists?

Take a full count and see where this focus should be.

 

[Rival]

You really think that Europeans are so bothered about immigration purely because of attacks by Muslims? That's it?

Are they bothered about attacks by others?

Thus, even this thread has turned into an Islam and Muslim prototyping exercise.

Take a good look at numbers prior to making this kind of claim Rival.

How many attacks have been done by

• the Right Wing?
• Leftwing and anarchists?
• Ethno nationalists and separatists?

Take a full count and see where this focus should be.

I can't remember the last time there were any serious right-wing or left-wing threats in the UK. They are mostly small insignificant groups no-one cares about. From what I can see, the on the ground reality is that we see more Islamic extremism than any other kind. Another issue may be the divide between Eastern and Western Europe, with the East having more political/ethnic/separatist attacks and the West having more Islamic ones. Certainly I don't hear of anyone talking about separatists or the like where I am. This is about what folks hear and read about day to day. In Western Europe, that is Islamic attacks.

 

[firedragon]

I can't remember the last time there were any serious right-wing or left-wing threats in the UK. They are mostly small insignificant groups no-one cares about. From what I can see, the on the ground reality is that we see more Islamic extremism than any other kind. Another issue may be the divide between Eastern and Western Europe, with the East having more political/ethnic/separatist attacks and the West having more Islamic ones. Certainly I don't hear of anyone talking about separatists or the like where I am. This is about what folks hear and read about day to day. In Western Europe, that is Islamic attacks.

See, you are doing guesswork. Probably because of the perception in your mind. That's a cognitive bias. Cognitive biases are not necessarily intentional.

But take a look at statistics. (Psst. Not done by Muslims)

You can do the rest of the research.

Cheers.

 

[BrightShadow]

For goodness' sake.

Yes, but those British nationals are sons and daughters of immigrants generally who want to retain what they feel is their identity, their Muslim identity; many identify as Muslim first and British second. I also said in 'Europe' specifically. Unless you have not read these reports. Most attacks seem to be carried out by immigrants from Muslim countries or their children. This is one of the primary reasons Europeans are bothered about immigration at all. My agenda, if I have one, is to stop those with an incompatible worldview from wrecking European civilisation.

Your first mistake is - you accept them as who they claim to be. Not every Muslim is Muslim, not every Christian is a Christian, not every Jew is a Jew just because they claim to be! IMO
If anyone is doing havoc in your country - they are not doing it because the religion taught them to do so. If they are doing it then they are doing it because they are not learned. If they are doing it then it is because of their misconception and their personal sentiments.
Instead of accepting people as who they claim to be - check their real identity. In this case check their primary doctrine. I know that would be a difficult task to undertake if you don't have much knowledge about their religion. But you can always try before accepting them as who they claim to be and putting all Muslims in one box.

Belonging to a religion or being part of a religion is not something that is an inheritable disposition - it is not like color of hair etc. Also being part of a religion is not something achieved by self-proclamation. One has to understand, implement and strictly adhere to the teachings from their primary doctrine and principles (especially basic and important ones). When it is clearly displayed through their acts and claims - that their position contradicts with the teaching of their religion - and when it also contradicts with position of a larger portion of believers of the same said religion - and when the larger portion tells you that the minor fractions got it all wrong - then it should be common sense for others who do not share the same sentiments of that said religion - to disregard those fake pretenders and classify them as lost souls. This is not rocket science to comprehend! However the problem will not go away - for that you will need to find ways to make their scholars, leaders and spokesperson to educate them.
The only people who would continue to believe the tiny fraction after being repeatedly informed otherwise - are the people who think alike and use their judgments in the same way as them! If these commentators were born into that religion then they too would have acted the same way as those lost cause. IMO

 

[Rival]

See, you are doing guesswork. Probably because of the perception in your mind. That's a cognitive bias. Cognitive biases are not necessarily intentional.

But take a look at statistics. (Psst. Not done by Muslims)

You can do the rest of the research.

Cheers.

View attachment 63773 View attachment 63774

My lived experience, what I see around me, is not that of political extremism. It's Islamic extremism.

From your source:

This: In 2020, all attacks and most plots attributed to left-wing and anarchist groups occurred in Italy.

And: In 2020, three EU Member States experienced four terrorist incidents motivated by right-wing extremism. One terrorist attack using firearms was committed in Germany and resulted in the death of nine people;8 another attack plot in Germany was disrupted. A failed attempt to attack a public institution occurred in Belgium, while one plot was foiled in France.

And: In 2020, three EU Member States (Austria, France and Germany) suffered 10 jihadist attacks. The completed attacks in the EU killed 12 people and injured more than 47. Four jihadist plots were successfully foiled in Belgium, France and Germany. EU Member States assessed that jihadist terrorism remained the greatest terrorist threat in the EU.

And,
Both in 2018 and 2019, two thirds of jihadist terrorist attacks in the EU were thwarted prior to their execution.

When one looks into this we see that left-wing attacks are virtually limited to one country, Italy. The most widespread seem to be jihadist attacks and the EU agrees.

 

[Link]

I would do research into "hate crimes", including shootings in schools. Those are usually not seen as political or religiously motivated, but in reality, both elements as well as racism and other forms of bigotry play a role.

"Terrorism" is a very ambiguously defined word and purposely so.

 

[firedragon]

My lived experience, what I see around me, is not that of political extremism. It's Islamic extremism.

From your source:

This: In 2020, all attacks and most plots attributed to left-wing and anarchist groups occurred in Italy.

And: In 2020, three EU Member States experienced four terrorist incidents motivated by right-wing extremism. One terrorist attack using firearms was committed in Germany and resulted in the death of nine people;8 another attack plot in Germany was disrupted. A failed attempt to attack a public institution occurred in Belgium, while one plot was foiled in France.

And: In 2020, three EU Member States (Austria, France and Germany) suffered 10 jihadist attacks. The completed attacks in the EU killed 12 people and injured more than 47. Four jihadist plots were successfully foiled in Belgium, France and Germany. EU Member States assessed that jihadist terrorism remained the greatest terrorist threat in the EU.

And,
Both in 2018 and 2019, two thirds of jihadist terrorist attacks in the EU were thwarted prior to their execution.

When one looks into this we see that left-wing attacks are virtually limited to one country, Italy. The most widespread seem to be jihadist attacks and the EU agrees.

Your extreme bias has made facts turn into excuses. Italy has become a country not in the EU which is what you were talking about, number research outcome is diminished and "ASSESSMENT" has become outcome, and Leftwin-and anarchist groups have become the "ONLY" group in the whole study.

Unbelievable. That ends that discussion. Cheers.

 

[ajay0]

Have you watched the movie?

I have not watched the movie. I studied its theme in internet articles though.

The Lady of Heaven - Wikipedia

It seems to explain the Shia perspective of Fatima and Ali which differs from the Sunni version.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Again, not playing. However, if you want to increase my knowledge of Arabic, please go ahead. Give me the lesson and tell me what the root word is. (btw, 'seem' was a typo, but I'm sure you guessed that).

The root word is Salima. Basically means "peace". It could mean became safe, secure, achieved peace of mind, free, free from blemish, attained freedom. So it's "peace".

"Islam" indeed means "submission." The meaning of a root doesn't necessarily reflect the meaning of its derivatives in Arabic. I previously explained this in a thread:

"Islam" Means "Submission," Not "Peace" — Explanation of a Subtle Connection

I don't find the meaning of the word itself relevant to this discussion either way, though. Whether it means "peace" or "submission" has little bearing on the actions of individual Muslims, who are part of a vastly diverse religious group with differing interpretations of Islamic texts.

 

[ajay0]

1. What do you know about this so called "history"? Why do you believe what you said above mentioning "could be" as some kind of false disclaimer? What is the chain of narrations, who are in the chain? What are levels of these people in the chain? What analysis have you done?

I have read many newspaper artices on violent clashes and conflicts between the Shias and Sunnis

Shia–Sunni relations - Wikipedia

Anti-Shi'ism - Wikipedia.

The long, violent history of Shia-Sunni conflict

So you can see that the persecution of shias by the sunnis, similar to the persecution of other muslims like sufis, Ahmediyas is an ongoing source of conflict and violence in islamic society.

So solving this issue through dialogue is necessary for promoting peace in islamic society and this film might help to foster awareness and understanding necessary to promote dialogue and peace between these two islamic sects.

Let's say as you have asserted Abu Bakr is the boogey man.

Historical interpretations of Abu Bakr differ in the sunni and shia perspectives, so I don't know which is correct.

I have read some of the sayings of both Abu Bakr and Ali Ibn Talib, and found them inspiring and useful.

I understand you want to equate this to ISIS, and any movie that does it you will embrace with open arms even though the Shia's themselves globally have condemned this movie. It's strange atheists and what ever you are are loving it and fighting hard for it, even bringing God into it, while the Shii's and Sunni's are both condemning this movie. It's hilarious.

It is the film that traces a sequence to the abuse of authority by isis and that of Abu Bakr, not me.

Abuse of authority happens in almost every other society in certain degrees as well. I am not saying that the shia version or sunni version is correct.

What is important is the ending of the conflicts between the sunnis, shias, ahmediyas and sufis in Islamic society and helping it join global mainstream society.

Christian sects like the catholics and protestants had been at each others throats for centuries but now have reconciled to a large extent, and we don't hear of violent conflicts between them these days.

Islamic society can follow this example as well and create bridges between these Islamic sects as well through dialogue and embracing of differences.

 

[firedragon]

I have not watched the movie. I studied its theme in internet articles though.

The Lady of Heaven - Wikipedia

It seems to explain the Shia perspective of Fatima and Ali which differs from the Sunni version.

I have watched it. It's much more than that.

 

[firedragon]

I have read many newspaper artices on violent clashes and conflicts between the Shias and Sunnis

Shia–Sunni relations - Wikipedia

Anti-Shi'ism - Wikipedia.

The long, violent history of Shia-Sunni conflict

So you can see that the persecution of shias by the sunnis, similar to the persecution of other muslims like sufis, Ahmediyas is an ongoing source of conflict and violence in islamic society.

So solving this issue through dialogue is necessary for promoting peace in islamic society and this film might help to foster awareness and understanding necessary to promote dialogue and peace between these two islamic sects.

How is any of that relevant to the question I asked? Don't worry about dialogue because Sunni's and Shia's both are against this movie. So only the "others" in this thread are against Muslims as a whole. Though its a shame for people taking this opportunity to demonise Muslims, the Sunni's and Shia's are united on this front.

Mate. Newspaper articles don't answer my question. Your research is too shallow, and you cannot answer my question so there is no point following through with that kind of dialogue.

Historical interpretations of Abu Bakr differ in the sunni and shia perspectives, so I don't know which is correct.

I have read some of the sayings of both Abu Bakr and Ali Ibn Talib, and found them inspiring and useful.

I understand that you have heard from hearsay. I don't blame you. But its irrelevant to this.

It is the film that traces a sequence to the abuse of authority by isis and that of Abu Bakr, not me.

Of course. It doesnt "trace" which you have posited without analysing anything or watching the movie. It merely equates.

 

[firedragon]

"Islam" indeed means "submission." The meaning of a root doesn't necessarily reflect the meaning of its derivatives in Arabic. I previously explained this in a thread:

"Islam" Means "Submission," Not "Peace" — Explanation of a Subtle Connection

I don't find the meaning of the word itself relevant to this discussion either way, though. Whether it means "peace" or "submission" has little bearing on the actions of individual Muslims, who are part of a vastly diverse religious group with differing interpretations of Islamic texts.

The meaning is not necessary whatsoever, but it is some people's illness to bring what ever they can catch hold of. The root meaning was also brought up by someone mate. Not me. If you read through this thread, no one has watched this movie but have many many things to say with cut and pastes and just speculation. Also, many have tried to make it a "God is insecure" argument while this movie has nothing to do with God. The atheists are highly enthusiastic in demonising Islam and Muslims, even some Jews are ready to bring up terrorism in Europe in this thread when that's absolutely irrelevant to the topic. And one person adamantly wants to get into the Qur'an and the meaning of Islam etc because that's a dire need, although it's absolutely irrelevant.