The Last Prophecy of Revelation

[Faithofchristian]

Ok.

Sandy whitelinger, look we have two options, to either follow the teachings of man's or the teachings of Christ Jesus our Lord

So the question would be. You do you suppose will be found to be right,
Man's teachings or Christ Jesus teachings ?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sandy whitelinger, look we have two options, to either follow the teachings of man's or the teachings of Christ Jesus our Lord

So the question would be. You do you suppose will be found to be right,
Man's teachings or Christ Jesus teachings ?

What are you trying to suck me into here?

 

[74x12]

Because the 7th trump, belongs only to Christ Jesus, and when it sounds it brings the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.
Therefore Christ Jesus can not return until the 7th trump sounds, which brings the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus. All because Christ Jesus as shortened the days of the Tribulation.Thats why the 7th trump is sounded to bring the Tribulation to it's end and the return of Christ Jesus. This all happens right after God's two witnesses are killed and called back up to heaven and the 7th trump is sounded and brings the Tribulation to it's end and the return of Christ Jesus.

Look in the book of Revelation there is only
7 seals, 7 Trump's, 7 vails.
The 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th Vail,
Which belongs to Satan = 666
The 7th seal, 7th trump, 7th Vail,
Which belongs to Christ Jesus =777

That's pretty good. This answers Oeste's question as to why it happens "immediately after" the tribulation. Oeste, read this.

 

[Faithofchristian]

What are you trying to suck me into here?

To show the Rapture is man's teachings and nothing that Christ Jesus taught.

For God has given the last Prophecy to happen in the book of Revelation, until this last Prophecy happens, which bring an end to the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.
Therefore the Rapture can not happen, for Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens first. That God has given in Revelation 11.

 

[74x12]

Because all the other trumpets have sounded and the seventh trumpet is the final, third woe where all the worst of the tribulation period...the bowl judgments, occur. It is not the end of the tribulation period but it does mark it. It is past the mid-point of the 7 year period.

To you the book of Revelation is completely chronological? Or how chronological is it?

That would take some research, specifically what words did the earliest manuscripts subscribe to, where these manuscripts were written and how many of the manuscripts carry these words. Unfortunately I just do not have the time right now so I will have to defer comment on this.

Even the KJV translates the Greek word translated here as "when" elsewhere as "about to". But go for it. Study it out if you want. I like to stick to the textus receptus for the most part because I think just because someone finds an older manuscript that doesn't mean it's better. It could have been edited by various ancient sects. The textus receptus on the other hand is pretty trustworthy. Handed down by people who probably cherished the Word whatever else we could say about them.

That is true, but I was wondering if you have a theological framework which helps you define which scriptural verses are applicable only to the congregations they were addressed to and which scriptural verses apply to the rest of us.

Without such a framework it would be very easy to say that whatever Jesus said to the Pharisees applied only to the Pharisees, what he said to the Jews in general applied only to those Jews within earshot of his voice, and the epistles only applied to the churches they were addressed to. As for the rest of us the scripture applicable would be to repent (Acts 26:20), keep free from strangled animals, sexual immorality, and idols (Acts 21:25)

We could talk a long time about this subject. It's what 2 Tim 2:15 is talking about. It takes work for us to rightly divide the Word of truth. The reason I say this is to the church of the Philadelphia is because it is a specific prophecy to them. It is not a teaching; it's a prophecy.

I agree with the classic Dispensational view which to me is simply a way of organizing God treatment of man through history. I also agree that Israel is Israel as I do not subscribe to replacement theology. It's understandable how some came to believe the Church was Israel (even though scripture never states that) but now that the state of Israel has burst upon the scene there is no need to hold onto replacement theology.

Having said that, there is another, IMO heretical view of Dispensationalism, called ultra (or hyper) Dispensationalism and sometimes referred to as Bullingerism. They teach the 4 gospels were written to the Jews and do not apply to the church today, that the church spoken of in Acts does not pertain to the Body of Christ but to some other church and even more things that I'd rather not get into on this thread. Your suggestion that the instructions to the Philadelphians apply only to the Philadelphians and not to the Christian church readily align with ultra-Dispensational views.

Would you say the writing on the wall was to the king of Babylon or everyone?

 

[Faithofchristian]

To you the book of Revelation is completely chronological? Or how chronological is it?

Even the KJV translates the Greek word translated here as "when" elsewhere as "about to". But go for it. Study it out if you want. I like to stick to the textus receptus for the most part because I think just because someone finds an older manuscript that doesn't mean it's better. It could have been edited by various ancient sects. The textus receptus on the other hand is pretty trustworthy. Handed down by people who probably cherished the Word whatever else we could say about them.

We could talk a long time about this subject. It's what 2 Tim 2:15 is talking about. It takes work for us to rightly divide the Word of truth. The reason I say this is to the church of the Philadelphia is because it is a specific prophecy to them. It is not a teaching; it's a prophecy.


Would you say the writing on the wall was to the king of Babylon or everyone?

As for Oeste saying that all the trumpets has been sounded, that's not true, were only in the forth seal of Revelation waiting for the forth trump to sound and the forth Vail to come.

The seals are there to let us know what is to happen before hand and trumpets are there that at the command of God's the Trumpet will sound which brings those things in each seal to start.and the out pouring of the vails.

We still have the 5th seal, 6th seal,
7th seal. And the 5th trump, 6th trump,
7th trump and the vails to thru yet.
Before Christ Jesus returns.

Hopefully this will be of help.

 

[Oeste]

You just quoted the verse. it's in Revelation 10:7.

In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound..."

The seventh angel sounds the trumpet and the trumpet will sound for days.

The KJV is what I quoted. The actual Greek word being translated there as "when" is actually translated elsewhere in the KJV as

• to be about
• to be on the point of doing or suffering something
• to intend, have in mind, think to

I have here a copy of the English man's Greek new Testament and If we use Young's Literal translation, or the WEB; we see it has a slightly different meaning than the KJV has:

(English man's Greek new Testament)
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound[the] trumpet, also should be completed the mystery of God, as he did announce the glad tidings to his bondmen the prophets.

(Young's Literal Translation) Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to sound, and the secret of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.

(World English Bible)
Revelation 10:7
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as he declared to his servants, the prophets.

All variations given by you include the word “when”. The only difference I see is some translations use the word “begin” and others use “about”. Whether it’s “…he shall begin to sound” or whether its “he is about to sound” makes little difference since the trumpet at Matthew 24:31 is sounding “…immediately after the tribulation of those days” whereas when the 7th trumpet of Revelation sounds there is plenty of tribulation to go…in fact, the greatest part of the tribulation, the seven vials that about to start.

Since the trumpet sounding at Matthew 24:31 is sounding “after” (and it makes absolutely no difference if this is “immediately” after) the tribulation period, and since the 7th trumpet of Revelation marks the end of the initial 3 ½ year tribulation period and the beginning of the horror comprising the greater tribulation (the last 3 ½ year period, (Greek: τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29) with plenty of tribulation (bowls/vials) to go, I don't see how they can possibly be the same trumpet.

They are separate, distinct events.

 

[Oeste]

You confuse me FOC.

The Rapture Theory, Is not true and will not happen, For the simple fact, That the last Prophecy that God has given in the book of Revelation has to happen first, Which doesn't happen until at the end of the Tribulation.
So what good will the Rapture do, When the Tribulation has ended, Over.

When Christ Jesus returns, the body of flesh drops, our spirit comes forth to meet the Lord in the Spirit. To see the Lord as he is in the Spiritual world. And not of flesh and blood.

I'm not sure how you resolve both views. Can you explain?

 

[Oeste]

All Christians who are alive will go through the tribulation. Many will have been dead already.

God pours his wrath on the world, not those who are no part of it (Romans 10:10;1 John 2:15-17; James 1:27). Looking back through history, God didn’t punish a repentant Israel but an unrepentant one. I don’t understand why you believe God would treat His church differently.

The whole purpose of the tribulation is to bring unrepentant people to repentance. This is God’s punishment, not Satan’s, and I see no reason why Jesus would be opening seals designed to attack and bring death to members of his own body.

Jesus never did this while he was on earth...why do you and FOC think he does it in heaven?

 

[Oeste]

To you the book of Revelation is completely chronological?

The 7 trumpets are chronological…I don’t know anyone who believes the 7th trumpet sounds before the 1st, nor anyone who believes the 5th before the 3rd, but after spending time on this forum I’m ready to be pleasantly surprised.

Or how chronological is it?

However wrongly, this question appears to be a bit of rabbit hole to me... both vague and open ended. Let's put it this way...I'm not aware of any eschatology that purports Revelation 12:1 to occur after the events in Revelation 11.

Even the KJV translates the Greek word translated here as "when" elsewhere as "about to".

Not quite. The KJV translates the Greek word “when” as “when”…just like all the other translations you quoted. See my earlier post #87.

But go for it. Study it out if you want. I like to stick to the textus receptus for the most part because I think just because someone finds an older manuscript that doesn't mean it's better. It could have been edited by various ancient sects. The textus receptus on the other hand is pretty trustworthy. Handed down by people who probably cherished the Word whatever else we could say about them.

If you prefer the textus receptus as more trustworthy then you should love the KIng James version which is what I quoted.

We could talk a long time about this subject. It's what 2 Tim 2:15 is talking about. It takes work for us to rightly divide the Word of truth. The reason I say this is to the church of the Philadelphia is because it is a specific prophecy to them. It is not a teaching; it's a prophecy.

Then perhaps it would be easier if you could explain the trial, testing,or temptation "...that shall come upon the whole world" and why Jesus promised only the Philadelphians would be spared from it.

Would you say the writing on the wall was to the king of Babylon or everyone?

I would say the writing (prophesy) on the wall was to the King and included all Babylonians, and Jesus’s words were to the Philadelphians and included all Christians.

 

[Oeste]

What are you trying to suck me into here?

LOL, great response.

I think we all wonder that sometimes.

 

[Oeste]

As to how do you come by the Rapture, when Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens that God has given in Revelation.
When this last Prophecy happens brings the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.
So by your Rapture, for it to happen, Christ Jesus comes, But Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens that God has given in Revelation Chapter 11.

Christ cannot return in glory, FOC, but that says nothing about his presence.

The Greek word I am referring to in parousia where Christ returns for his church. It's used at 2 Peter 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:23, 1 Thess. 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:1, James 5:7,8, 2 Peter 3:4, Matthew 24:3, 27, 37; 1 John 2:28.

What you are describing is Christ's 2nd return in power and great glory, and the Greek word for this is epiphaneia. The two words are neither equivalent or th same.

 

[Oeste]

Look in the book of Revelation there is only
7 seals, 7 Trump's, 7 vails.
The 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th Vail,
Which belongs to Satan = 666
The 7th seal, 7th trump, 7th Vail,
Which belongs to Christ Jesus =777

That's pretty good. This answers Oeste's question as to why it happens "immediately after" the tribulation. Oeste, read this.

I don't think so 74x12. It looks to me like the post you quoted and described as "pretty good" has already been deleted.

All the seals, trumpets and vials are from God. Anyone claiming they are from Satan would be engaging in blasphemy, akin to claiming Jesus performed miracles through Beelzebub.

 

[Oeste]

Immediately is immediately. How do you even know that the 7th trumpet "marks the end"? I would say that if something happens immediately after then it could mark the end. But, you're getting caught up on that so how do you know it "marks the end" anyway?

Because all the other trumpets have sounded and the seventh trumpet is the final, third woe where all the worst of the tribulation period...the bowl judgments, occur. It is not the end of the tribulation period but it does mark it. It is past the mid-point of the 7 year period.

As for Oeste saying that all the trumpets has been sounded, that's not true, were only in the forth seal of Revelation waiting for the forth trump to sound and the forth Vail to come.

Context FOC, context!!!

I never claimed "all the trumpets has been sounded". I am merely stating that once the 7th trumpet sounds, the sounding of the prior 6 trumpets have already occurred.

We still have the 5th seal, 6th seal,
7th seal. And the 5th trump, 6th trump,
7th trump and the vails to thru yet.
Before Christ Jesus returns.

Now that's interesting!

On what basis do you claim the first 4 seals opened and the first 4 trumps sounded?

 

[dfnj]

the Return of Christ Jesus.

Maybe it already happened in 2000 and the rest of us still here are in denial.

But seriously, I had a friend who really thought Jesus would return in his lifetime. He died 10 years ago. My prediction like the millions before us we will all be long dead and gone before the second coming.

 

[Faithofchristian]

All variations given by you include the word “when”. The only difference I see is some translations use the word “begin” and others use “about”. Whether it’s “…he shall begin to sound” or whether its “he is about to sound” makes little difference since the trumpet at Matthew 24:31 is sounding “…immediately after the tribulation of those days” whereas when the 7th trumpet of Revelation sounds there is plenty of tribulation to go…in fact, the greatest part of the tribulation, the seven vials that about to start.

Since the trumpet sounding at Matthew 24:31 is sounding “after” (and it makes absolutely no difference if this is “immediately” after) the tribulation period, and since the 7th trumpet of Revelation marks the end of the initial 3 ½ year tribulation period and the beginning of the horror comprising the greater tribulation (the last 3 ½ year period, (Greek: τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29) with plenty of tribulation (bowls/vials) to go, I don't see how they can possibly be the same trumpet.

They are separate, distinct events.

There is no 3 1/2 years of tribultion.

If you remember right, Christ Jesus shortened the days of the tribulation in Matthew 24:22.
So there is no 3 1/2 years.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You confuse me FOC.





I'm not sure how you resolve both views. Can you explain?

Let's start with 1 Cor 2:11--"For what man knows the things of a man, Except the spirit of man, which is in him"

So here we find, that man has a spirit in him.

2 Cor 5:6--"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, We are absent from the Lord"

You see while our spirit is here in the body, we are absent from the Lord, But once our body of flesh dies, Then our spirit separates from the body and goes to be present with the Lord.

2 Cor 2:8--"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

Once our spirit becomes separated from our body when we die, Then our spirit goes to be present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God, who gave it"

The body of flesh returns back to the earth, from where it was taken, and our spirit which is inside of the body, returns back to God, who gave it.

1 Cor 15:52--"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

Therefore at the last trumpet, when it is sounded, We become separated from this body of flesh, and our spirit goes to meet the Lord in the spirit.

Revelation 1:7--"Behold, he comes with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wait because of him, Even so, A-men"

How will it be possible for every eye to see him, at Jesus coming, For everyone will be in the spirit, when the last trumpet is sounded, This being the 7th trump in Revelation, That when this trumpet is sounded, everyone will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to the spirit.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Christ cannot return in glory, FOC, but that says nothing about his presence.

The Greek word I am referring to in parousia where Christ returns for his church. It's used at 2 Peter 1:16, 1 Cor. 15:23, 1 Thess. 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:1, James 5:7,8, 2 Peter 3:4, Matthew 24:3, 27, 37; 1 John 2:28.

What you are describing is Christ's 2nd return in power and great glory, and the Greek word for this is epiphaneia. The two words are neither equivalent or th same.

No matter how you try to cut it, Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens that God has given in Revelation.
That when this last Prophecy happens that God has given, the Tribulation has ended,over.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Context FOC, context!!!

I never claimed "all the trumpets has been sounded". I am merely stating that once the 7th trumpet sounds, the sounding of the prior 6 trumpets have already occurred.



Now that's interesting!

On what basis do you claim the first 4 seals opened and the first 4 trumps sounded?

That's easy, If you know what to look for out in the world, that will line up to the 4th seal, the 4th trump, the 4th Vail.

We now in the 4th seal of Revelation.

If you look at the 3rd seal, this is the great depression of the 1930's and early 1940's

That now in the 4th seal, this is what's happening now, To kill with the sword, means, people are being deceived by deception. And with hunger, means people are hunger for the truth of God's word.
The beasts of the earth, are those people who are out in the world, evangelizing out in the world, deceving by deception people.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

LOL, great response.

I think we all wonder that sometimes.

It's so easy to follow the bunny trails. Before you know it your down the rabbit hole.