The law of God, still abides.

[Demonslayer]

in order for the God you may not believe in

You don't have to be diplomatic, I definitely don't believe in him.

to judge mankind and therefore be just, there needs to be a law.

The Biblical commandments are such a sorry list of moral laws it's not even funny. You've got 10 things to command humans to do, or not do, to be good people. So you waste one telling them they can't work on Sunday, one telling them it's evil to make statues and paintings, one telling them you must never educate yourself about other Gods people talk about, and one that says don't say God in any silly or frivilous way? 40% of Mosaic Law is self-serving nonsense, unworthy of an all powerful God.

None of those things have anything to do with making people good. A guy carving a marble statue on Sunday who said "Goddammit" when he dropped his chisel would be breaking three commandments, while a guy who beats his wife while smoking crack after gambling away his child's college fund hasn't broken any. What a moral code!

No mention in Mosaic Law about treating humans equaly, no mandate against human slavery, underage sexual activity, rape, torture, abuse of alcohol or drugs, polluting the planet, animal abuse, or a whole host of other things that actually make people good.

One wonders why a super smart all powerful God would want to judge humans on such a limited and ponderous list of moral laws. I could come up with a better list that God did in 10 minutes.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

sounds like we get to out-think God and choose what laws to obey or just make up our own.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

sounds like we get to out-think God and choose what laws to obey or just make up our own.

Actually God outhunk man and made it so that we are without excuse and we will be judged by the law we choose; either pre-Mosaic law, Mosaic Law or the law of faith. You choose.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

this is an amazing idea !!! I just wish I could find it in the Bible. It still sounds like we can obey or not obey whatever we want. I don't think God is that generous. Jesus said to obey the commandments and lists several to show He is talking about the Ten Commandments of Moses time. Anyone who choses to obey some other law must not think much of what Jesus said.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

this is an amazing idea !!! I just wish I could find it in the Bible.[/QUOTE ]

You can.Read the book of Romans. It's in there. Chapters 1-8. Pay special attention to chapters 2 & 7.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Anyone who choses to obey some other law must not think much of what Jesus said.

Happens all the time. Yet the laws I listed are found in the Bible. If you choose to be Jewish, follow the Mosaic Law. If you are born again follow the new law of faith in Christ. The alternative is to be condemned under your own law.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

the book of Romans seems to be talking about the law of God ( 10 commandments ). if one is a follower of God then one will follow God's law but if one is not following God then he will follow his own law which is sin. everything seems to indicate that God has one standard and everyone must meet those standards. and when you say those who are born again should follow the law of faith in Christ but Christ said if you love Him you should "keep the commandments." Nothing anywhere says you get to choose. What if you live in a state where the speed limit is 70 MPH but you are visiting a state where the speed limit is 60 MPH. Do you get to choose? If you go 70 MPH you may get a ticket even though the limit in your state is 70. God treats everyone exactly the same and judges everyone by the same law.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

the book of Romans seems to be talking about the law of God ( 10 commandments ).

Let's start here. Romans talks about three laws, natural law, Mosaic Law (which includes the ten commandments) and the law of faith. I've explained how one comes to fall under each of them. It's a choice. Shall we move forward from this point or would you like to argue whether the Bible offers these choices?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Actually I would like to see a specific verse that says anything about having a choice.

 

[outhouse]

The law of God, still abides.

Which god?

Don't you mean the laws of ancient people who attributed these laws to the god concept that has constantly changed often mirroring the culture that redefines the concept.


AND LAST, will you do more them proselytize your faith?

 

[outhouse]

Shall we move forward from this point or would you like to argue whether the Bible offers these choices?

Unfortunately, the bible defines the laws differently depending on which book you read.

The laws also changed with time, as different men redefined them.

So we can look at how Paul aggressively changed the laws to meet that communities personal needs, or we can look at how later authors tried to soften up Pauls view of the laws in the NT.

Or we can look at OT laws in Judaism.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Actually I would like to see a specific verse that says anything about having a choice.

First, before I do your homework, are you not first a natural man, do you deny that a person can choose to either join the Jewish or Christian faith?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The law of God, still abides.

Which god?

This being a Biblical debate then it's the God of the Bible.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Unfortunately, the bible defines the laws differently depending on which book you read.

The laws also changed with time, as different men redefined them.

So we can look at how Paul aggressively changed the laws to meet that communities personal needs, or we can look at how later authors tried to soften up Pauls view of the laws in the NT.

Or we can look at OT laws in Judaism.

Ok, let's look at all of that. Narrow your question to one and let's see how it relates to what I said.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

actually most people do not get to choose their religion. And if the choices are limited to Jewish or Christian, then the majority of people do not have those choices- people in China or India for example may never even hear about the Jewish or Christian faith. So let's not waste any more time and just quote the verses that say people get to chose what laws they will be under.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

actually most people do not get to choose their religion. And if the choices are limited to Jewish or Christian, then the majority of people do not have those choices- people in China or India for example may never even hear about the Jewish or Christian faith. So let's not waste any more time and just quote the verses that say people get to chose what laws they will be under.

That's interesting...do want to get back to a Biblical debate?

 

[Demonslayer]

sounds like we get to out-think God and choose what laws to obey or just make up our own.

Of course we do, are you kidding? "God" only gave us 10 laws...and it's a lousy, incomplete list as I outlined above. We HAVE to make up our own laws since God did such a terrible job with his list. Don't you think it's good we added our own human laws against slavery, child abuse, rape, torture, etc?

And does anyone really think it's a "sin" to work on Sunday anymore?

Laws change with the times, they always have. Mosaic law is just a snapshot in time, which is why they appear so obviously outdated and ill equipped to provide modern moral advice.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It is really interesting that someone who claims to have no religion finds so many problems with the details of someone else's religion. What is the problem with not working on Sunday? It is too inconvenient for someone with no religion? And it is not Sunday anyway. God blessed the seventh day because He rested from His work on that day. Do you also have a problem with not commiting adultery or bearing false witness? The 10 commandments are a foundation that can be built on but not changed.
As far as a biblical debate, I just want to see where it says we get to choose what laws to obey.

 

[Demonslayer]

It is really interesting that someone who claims to have no religion finds so many problems with the details of someone else's religion.

I was raised Catholic so it was my religion for a long time as well. It was during my religious days, actually, where I learned first hand how the religious morality that I was given failed greatly in so many cases.

Besides which, religion...particuarly religious law which this thread is about...affects us all, whether we still adhere to the faith or not.

Also, this is a debate thread, can't I provide my opinion on the worth of Mosaic Law as a moral code? You seem upset by my comments.

What is the problem with not working on Sunday? It is too inconvenient for someone with no religion?

Well I have a typical Monday - Friday job so it's not a problem for me personally.

But the wider problem is...again to your point of "why would someone with no religion have a problem with someone else's religion"...the old blue laws are a perfect example of someone else's religion standing in the way of something important for no reason. Many people run business that rely on weekend traffic.

Imagine the independent liquor store owner who can't run his business on a Sunday because some "God" made some silly rule that has zero to do with actual morality? Why? Why should people limit their livelyhood just because some other people imagine a God giving some list of unchangable rules, many of which have little to do with being good?

And it is not Sunday anyway. God blessed the seventh day because He rested from His work on that day.

Yeah I know for the Jews it's Saturday. The point is the mandate against working on certain days of the week is arbitrary, has nothing to do with a person actually "being good" and is, IMO, and example of the gross failing of the 10 commandments to do much other than 1) force people to stay in the religion and 2) regurgitate basic moral ideas that everyone instinctlvely knows anyway.

Do you also have a problem with not commiting adultery or bearing false witness?

If you read my initial outline of the commandments you'd see I categorize the "don't kill, don't steal, don't lie and don't cheat on your wife" commandments as acceptable from a moral standpoint, but so incredbily basic that I don't really need some super smart Ubermoral deity to tell me those things. Besides which, moral codes that came long before Moses already said these things.

The 10 commandments are a foundation that can be built on but not changed.

So God gave us an incomplete list? Too bad he wasted the first 40% on "you must pay attention to me, you must love me, don't look at that younger sexier God or I'll damn you" stuff.

As far as a biblical debate, I just want to see where it says we get to choose what laws to obey.

Of course the Bible doesn't say you get to choose. It takes independent thought to choose your own path in life...something religion strictly discourages.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

this reminds me of the wide and straight path that leads to destruction but those who are willing to look for the narrow hard to find path will find it worth the trouble. sounds like a bunch of school kids telling the teacher "I don't like your rules so I'll make my own."
I'm not upset at all but just waiting to see something in the Bible that says people get to choose. But again someone who has no religion probably does not care what the Bible says. Independant thought is what gets people in trouble because they decide they do not need to do what God tells them to do.